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Rithrin

Why all the Automated Protocols hype?

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One thing that immediately stuck out to me while reading the Gozanti article. Sure, Automated Protocols is generating a lot of hype in the community, but it seems like a lot of commotion for a card that doesn't do anything!

 

Right under Page 4 of the Huge Ship rules:

 

"Free Actions
Huge ships cannot perform free actions."

 

I guess a Huge Ship Rules FAQ is coming :P

 

 

On a more serious note, it's really nice to see that the designers are pushing hard to make Epic great. The lack of free actions for Huge ships from the get-go is/was a huge wall blocking out a lot of design space and severely limiting how the developers could fix Huge ships' points efficiency problem. Thumbs up to the designers.

Edited by Rithrin

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FFG is good at writing stuff that makes sense at a glance, if not by a strict reading of the rules, and then FAQ-ing the strict interpretation.

 

They're also good at breaking consistency if it grants the intended effect, even in favour of a consistent ruleset.

 

So I really don't worry too much. All things become clear in time. :)

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yeah there is probably going to be an errata that restricts huge ships to actions inside their action bar. This is to keep them from doing boost or barrel rolls or even cloak.

 

As for the protocols it helps transports keep up with the action economy of the larger corvettes. The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. As for the transports they only have 1 ship/section card so they can only do one action.

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As for the protocols it helps transports keep up with the action economy of the larger corvettes. The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. As for the transports they only have 1 ship/section card so they can only do one action.

 

True to some extent, but Automated Protocols going on a CR90 or Raider will be extremely potent. For the first time, a Huge ship will be able to Reinforce while it is performing a full Recover action. Raider's Aft section can perform Coordinate (or whatever), trigger Automated Protocols to Reinforce, then the Fore can Recover for all remaining energy. Very tough nut to crack when triggered on a key turn.

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You guys actually need to read the rules before you complain about them.

 

From page 2 of the Rules Reference: "Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide."

 

A huge ship card that allows a free action for that huge ship overrides the rule that states they can't perform those actions.

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Nowhere on the card does it say it overrides the rules for Huge ships and free actions. Its exactly the same as any other ability providing a free action, squad leader, Lando, Leebo.

 

So, tell you what. If your going to try and make a rules argument that Automated Protocols works within the (instead of just saying "we know what it is supposed to do") then I get to put Leebo(crew) on my huge ship and have a huge ship performing small ship boosts.

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As for the protocols it helps transports keep up with the action economy of the larger corvettes. The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. As for the transports they only have 1 ship/section card so they can only do one action.

 

True to some extent, but Automated Protocols going on a CR90 or Raider will be extremely potent. For the first time, a Huge ship will be able to Reinforce while it is performing a full Recover action. Raider's Aft section can perform Coordinate (or whatever), trigger Automated Protocols to Reinforce, then the Fore can Recover for all remaining energy. Very tough nut to crack when triggered on a key turn.

 

 

Assuming that is possible. This card is going to need clarifications. I'm on the camp that it cannot let you do both a reinforce or recover action on the same turn and will be FAQ erattad to reflect that as it was already written that way. Also this is the first time a corvette could take a modification so there are some questions needed for modifications on huge ship other than only huge ship only modifications. Is it 1 per ship ore 1 per section? When is the timing? Can you trigger the card right after any action or do you have to perform all your actions first?

 

I think Automated Protocols will end up a Gr-75/Gozanti upgrade only and be as useful as gunner on outrider when put on CR-90/Raiders. Sure you do have a valid argument but I call that semantics as it goes against the wording of the card otherwise why would they ever put "other than a reinforce or recover action". Still that is not to say FFG won't come up and say you can do that, after all crackshot was originally going to be in the attacker modifies defense dice step before it was errata into the compare results step.

Edited by Marinealver

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When is the timing? Can you trigger the card right after any action or do you have to perform all your actions first?

While I agree with most of what you said about needing clarified, I'm curious why you think the timing would be any different than in the normal game? Is the any question that vader could trigger an "after you perform an action" upgrade after his first action but before his second?

A big chunk of the clarification needed is going to depend on HOW they errata stuff to make the card function at all.

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When is the timing? Can you trigger the card right after any action or do you have to perform all your actions first?

While I agree with most of what you said about needing clarified, I'm curious why you think the timing would be any different than in the normal game? Is the any question that vader could trigger an "after you perform an action" upgrade after his first action but before his second?

A big chunk of the clarification needed is going to depend on HOW they errata stuff to make the card function at all.

 

Mainly the same reason why crackshot needed clarification on its timing. This question has come up and hopefully it gets to FFG attention so they can set it straight. Sure could it allow corvettes to have both reinforce and recover, yes. The one thing I know it will never do is allow for 2 reinforce actions though.

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As for the protocols it helps transports keep up with the action economy of the larger corvettes. The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. As for the transports they only have 1 ship/section card so they can only do one action.

 

Um, no, reinforce and recover are on the same section for both the Raider (fore) and the Corvette (aft).

I think you are completely off track and you need to reread the cards. Currently the only issue with AP is that you can't perform free actions. On the assumption that this oversight is fixed somehow, there is absolutely no question about how the card works. Perform a target lock or coordinate on one section (or action-based card), trigger AP to do either a reinforce or recover. Perform action on the other section which must be the one you haven't already performed. You can also do it in the opposite order.

 

As for the protocols it helps transports keep up with the action economy of the larger corvettes. The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. As for the transports they only have 1 ship/section card so they can only do one action.

 

True to some extent, but Automated Protocols going on a CR90 or Raider will be extremely potent. For the first time, a Huge ship will be able to Reinforce while it is performing a full Recover action. Raider's Aft section can perform Coordinate (or whatever), trigger Automated Protocols to Reinforce, then the Fore can Recover for all remaining energy. Very tough nut to crack when triggered on a key turn.

 

Assuming that is possible. This card is going to need clarifications. I'm on the camp that it cannot let you do both a reinforce or recover action on the same turn and will be FAQ erattad to reflect that as it was already written that way. Also this is the first time a corvette could take a modification so there are some questions needed for modifications on huge ship other than only huge ship only modifications. Is it 1 per ship ore 1 per section? When is the timing? Can you trigger the card right after any action or do you have to perform all your actions first?

 

I think Automated Protocols will end up a Gr-75/Gozanti upgrade only and be as useful as gunner on outrider when put on CR-90/Raiders. Sure you do have a valid argument but I call that semantics as it goes against the wording of the card otherwise why would they ever put "other than a reinforce or recover action". Still that is not to say FFG won't come up and say you can do that, after all crackshot was originally going to be in the attacker modifies defense dice step before it was errata into the compare results step.

Other than a reinforce or recover action is to capture every action that is not a "reinforce" or a "recover" action. It is actually rather straight forward. It means you can't trigger AP off the section that has only the reinforce or recover actions, unless you have an action-based card, like say Toryn Farr or Fleet Officer.

And for your other point we already have the modification rules, one per ship. The modification rules apply to every ship (they are no exceptions). Epic ships have the addional proviso that they may only take mods with the huge ship only text.

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Nowhere on the card does it say it overrides the rules for Huge ships and free actions. Its exactly the same as any other ability providing a free action, squad leader, Lando, Leebo.

 

So, tell you what. If your going to try and make a rules argument that Automated Protocols works within the (instead of just saying "we know what it is supposed to do") then I get to put Leebo(crew) on my huge ship and have a huge ship performing small ship boosts.

 

That would be hilarious. I'll allow it.

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They just have to errata the rules to say "Huge ships cannot be granted free actions by other ships, or perform actions that have an icon if that icon is not listed in their action bar." It's probably that simple. Could be wrong.

I figured they were going to make a effect like this bit figured out was going to be on a team or crew slot. "Veteran captain" or "seasoned crew" or some such. Also figured it would get along the free action bit by calling it an 'additional' action.

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Im loving this card for when the aft section of my corvette gets crippled I can still target lock the front and still get a Reinforce token

 

that is until the FAQ comes out and changes that some how but I don't think they will because I think its one of the major strengths of the card I think the FAQ on this card will be something like no free actions unless granted by huge ship modification cards. easy :)

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They just have to errata the rules to say "Huge ships cannot be granted free actions by other ships, or perform actions that have an icon if that icon is not listed in their action bar." It's probably that simple. Could be wrong.

There's a few things that this enables (at least no huge has an EPT!), but generally it ought to be the simplest way to tweak it.

 

Definitely easier than errata'ing a stupid number of cards to say "one small or large ship".

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Nowhere on the card does it say it overrides the rules for Huge ships and free actions. Its exactly the same as any other ability providing a free action, squad leader, Lando, Leebo.

 

So, tell you what. If your going to try and make a rules argument that Automated Protocols works within the (instead of just saying "we know what it is supposed to do") then I get to put Leebo(crew) on my huge ship and have a huge ship performing small ship boosts.

When Huge Ships first entered the game, they started with zero energy, gave up to three additional green dice to defenders at range 5, and couldn't use Gunners or Luke.

Let's see what sort of rule changes FFG is going to come up with to accommodate this before we say it'll never work.

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They just have to errata the rules to say "Huge ships cannot be granted free actions by other ships, or perform actions that have an icon if that icon is not listed in their action bar." It's probably that simple. Could be wrong.

There's a few things that this enables (at least no huge has an EPT!), but generally it ought to be the simplest way to tweak it

Such as? I took a look through (I think) all of the upgrades that huge ships can take and the only ones before this that I found that granted free actions were Isaard (covered by the "can't have evade tokens" rule) and Leebo (which would be covered by a hypothetical "huge ships can't boost" rule (which huge ships probably out to have just on general principles). Did I miss something?

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As for the protocols it helps transports keep up with the action economy of the larger corvettes. The CR-90 and Imperial raider can already do what the upgrade lets them do because their reinforce and recover actions are on a diffrent section card. As for the transports they only have 1 ship/section card so they can only do one action.

 

Um, no, reinforce and recover are on the same section for both the Raider (fore) and the Corvette (aft).

I think you are completely off track and you need to reread the cards. Currently the only issue with AP is that you can't perform free actions. On the assumption that this oversight is fixed somehow, there is absolutely no question about how the card works. Perform a target lock or coordinate on one section (or action-based card), trigger AP to do either a reinforce or recover. Perform action on the other section which must be the one you haven't already performed. You can also do it in the opposite order.

 Other than a reinforce or recover action is to capture every action that is not a "reinforce" or a "recover" action. It is actually rather straight forward. It means you can't trigger AP off the section that has only the reinforce or recover actions, unless you have an action-based card, like say Toryn Farr or Fleet Officer.

And for your other point we already have the modification rules, one per ship. The modification rules apply to every ship (they are no exceptions). Epic ships have the addional proviso that they may only take mods with the huge ship only text.

 

That's what I said. Because both corvettes have the reinforce/recover action on the same section card they can already do what adv protocols would let transports/gozanti do. CR-90 and Imperial raiders can perform either a TL or a coordinate action which is not a Reinforce or recovery action then perform either a reinforce or a recovery action. I think you need to re-read the post.

 

Now the question is does Adv protocols trigger after every action. There is an action per section and sure you could say perform the TL action then a crew action which would trigger Adv Protocols but I think some people are arguing that you can perform both reinforce and recover action which I think adv protocols will not let you do that.

Edited by Marinealver

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I think some people are arguing that you can perform both reinforce and recover action.

What is currently being suggested is that (assuming the huge ship can perform the free action at all), within the rules as they are currently written, a corvette could time things so that it could do both reinforce and recover.

It is certainly possible that FFG, when they do whatever they are going to do to make the card actually do something, will close that timing loophole.

The current, most popular hypothesis on how they will enable the card is that they will change the huge ship rules to "cannot perform free actions granted by other ships". All that is being suggested is that, if that is all FFG do to make the card work, then the corvettes would be able to get both defensive actions.

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I was thinking Leebo (although you'd still get the ion token, which might be a good thing never), but yeah, "a few" was just "I know there's one, sort of, and am too lazy to check everything for others".

Yeah, I think it is just Leebo. Which is what convinced me that this was a really good solution. Huge ships should have a global rule that they can't boost or barrel roll anyway, just to be safe in case someone figures out some convoluted scenario to make it happen. So once such a rule is in place, they can say a huge ship can give itself free actions, but other ships can't, and suddenly a whole lot of design space for huge ships opens up.

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I think some people are arguing that you can perform both reinforce and recover action.

What is currently being suggested is that (assuming the huge ship can perform the free action at all), within the rules as they are currently written, a corvette could time things so that it could do both reinforce and recover.

It is certainly possible that FFG, when they do whatever they are going to do to make the card actually do something, will close that timing loophole.

The current, most popular hypothesis on how they will enable the card is that they will change the huge ship rules to "cannot perform free actions granted by other ships". All that is being suggested is that, if that is all FFG do to make the card work, then the corvettes would be able to get both defensive actions.

 

 

 

I think some people are arguing that you can perform both reinforce and recover action.

What is currently being suggested is that (assuming the huge ship can perform the free action at all), within the rules as they are currently written, a corvette could time things so that it could do both reinforce and recover.

It is certainly possible that FFG, when they do whatever they are going to do to make the card actually do something, will close that timing loophole.

The current, most popular hypothesis on how they will enable the card is that they will change the huge ship rules to "cannot perform free actions granted by other ships". All that is being suggested is that, if that is all FFG do to make the card work, then the corvettes would be able to get both defensive actions.

 

I'm thinking it could be more restrictive as can only huge ship actions or actions from huge ship only crew. To be fair you don't really want an CR-90 to do boost and barrel rolls.

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