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surly88

How to properly fly Super Dash?

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Looking at your FIGURE(image), imagine how less predictable you'd become if you just rotate DASH's starting position 10 degrees from (parallel to mat's edge). This biased angle of attack will give you a more nuanced CUT BACK angle helping your opponent overcommit to your bearing. It also squeezes a bit more mustard out of Barrel Rolls to wreck arcs. Yes, even 10 degrees will do wonders to arc-dodging.

 

Why not 45 degrees? Well, because a BANK maneuver puts you right back to (parallel to mat's edge) or even parallel to your opponent's angle of attack.

If your angles are in-line with every one of your opponents, you become a lot more predictable.

Edited by lazycomet

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Personally I don't like PtL on Dash. It shuts down most of his amazing dial and makes you more susceptible to things that cause stress (Rebel Captive, Tactician, R3-A2). The way I run Dash is with Lone Wolf, RecSpec and APL. With LW and RecSpec you get good modifiers for both attack and defense and APL solves the Soontir problem as the 2400 is an amazing blocker. APL can also scare off ships trying to get into the doughnut hole. The issues with this build is that you need to keep all friendly ships out of range 1-2 and being Dash with an HLC you want the enemy ships at range 3 and getting these ranges right takes a lot of practice. You also need to be good at setting your dial right first time, because if you need to barrel roll then you have no focus tokens for dice mods.

 

I'm starting to believe that PtL isn't the way to go myself.  I've been playing around with variations of the US Nationals list and actually have had much better results with ostensibly less mobile builds like the one in the quote above.  I'm a more novice Dash pilot, to be sure, so it's distinctly possible that I was Pushing at the wrong times and not thinking through my maneuvers as well as I might while counting on PtL, EU and Dash's ability to cover for my mistakes.

 

Anyway, I agree with some previous comments that the PtL may not be the way to go and am actually going so far as to suggest that it might be strictly harder to fly insofar as it introduces the added dimension of deciding when it's acceptable to Push and be stressed.  Haters gonna hate, and trolls gonna troll, but those of us who don't need to bolster a frail ego by claiming to be God's gift to X-Wing can accept this possibility, I think, at least for more novice pilots.

 

So here's the way I've been flying Dash:

 

Dash Rendar (36)
Predator (3)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Chewbacca (4)
Outrider (5)
 
Total: 55
 
Leaves me points for two Blues (like in the US Nationals list) and an initiative bid.  I also think the build in the quote above has promise but I struggle a bit with getting mileage out of APL without having Intel. Agent to go with it.  Once again, that's most likely a novice pilot issue.  Hope this helps!

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With all the stressers going around, yeah, I think EPTs that aren't dependent on actions are the way to go. 

 

have to agree

 

which is tragic, because PTL and trying to decide whether or not to use it +setting up KK just added such dimension to our favorite YT-2400 pilot :(

 

well, whatever we've lost, I believe APL gives it right back :P

 

except for dice-mods, I'm going to miss the hell out of those :(

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Being able to move literally wherever you want to even when "stuck" using a green maneuver makes Dash the easiest ship in the game to fly. Whenever you move into a bad position just boost and barrel roll into a good one.

 

If you're alone on a map, yes. But when you have a Soontir or Corran chasing you? It's not that simple, mate.

1.) Of course you might have a little trouble against another OP Acewing ship.

2.) Not really. Just move erratically, they still have to predict where you'll be since they actually have to get you in their arcs. Since you have a turret, it doesn't matter where you move to since you'll always have a shot they'll have no way to predict where you'll be. Then once you're out of their arc you throw your 4 dice, TL+Focus 93% to get 4/4 hits at them until you win.

 

Can I challenge you on Vassal? I'll play a 35-point Soontir and you can play 58-point Dash.

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Anyway, OP: 

 

You have a good idea in that you're getting shots, but the way I see it, you're Boosting and BRing, and MAYBE have a kyle focus (not on the first turn even!).  

Whats the best thing to do with PTL?:  Focus TL.  Deal max damage.  If you're in R3 and he's facing you, he still has R3 shots on you.  

 

...

 

So, how do you avoid that and also make it hard to get into R1?  Be always on the other side of rocks.  Be inside rocks.  

 

Next time you fly Dash, JUST FLY HIM DIRECTLY INTO THE ROCKS.  This is for practice.  Let him chase you into the rocks.  Play around with those rocks.  (Take stress rocks btw). 

 

Also imo, 58 dash is like... easily read. 

This is the build I prefer by a LOT: 

 

Dash Rendar (36)

Push the Limit (3)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Nien Nunb (1)
Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2)
Outrider (5)
 
Corran Horn (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
R2-D2 (4)
Shield Upgrade (4)
 
Total: 100
 
 
Dash here is the 52 cheap version with 2points of APL.  The APL seriously makes it hard for your opponent to get into your doughnut.  There's just a huge deadzone around Dash.  Can't touch him, can't hit any rocks, can't hit any blockers/otherships.  Wow.  That's hard to land perfectly.  And you should be BRing so that its even harder.  
What Nien Numb gives you though is huge unpredictability.  You simply always make sure your front is facing in a direction you can flee towards.  And then you get all the fine choices from 4straight and 1slights.  Much harder to guess.  It gives you a flee option. 
One APL hit also goes a long way to blowing up Aces.  
 
Corran you can do this version or the PTL AdvSen.  Either is fine. 
 
This build is table-tested.  BlailBlerg certified. 
Edited by Blail Blerg

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I have done well enough with my Dash build:  

 

Dash:  HLC, Outrider, VI, Engine Upgrade, Nien Nunb.

Corran Horn:  VI, FCS, R2-D2, Shield Upgrade.

 

Yes, I know, not last movement crazy as PTL Dash, but, it has worked well for me.  Going to obstacles is one of Dashs great strengths.  You can always barrel roll or boost off of it and get your shots.  Sometimes, not going anywhere is a great option too.  The 1 Turn + Barrel Roll is great at going no where when your opponent will think you will fly away.  The range one bubble is easy enough to get into.  I run Veteran Instincts so I can move after most of my opponents.  The 1 point upgrade of Nien Nunb is there to go against stress lists, which seem to be making a come back.  Being able to go forward 4 and clear stress is great, then boost away further.

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I have too agree with Blail blerg completely about aiming for the rocks/debris clouds. I have pulled out more than a few wins using this strategy. I have run the same super dash list and what I have found is that people will try to go for dash or coran but not both at the same time. When people try for dash (which most people go for first) aiming to land on the obstacles is the ticket. It's the one place people don't want to be and its the one place most arc dodgers can't and don't want to go.

I think his card text is what really makes him the pest he can be. The classic way to stop an arc dodger is to block them and by being able to jump the rocks makes that hard. Also like people have said you don't need to ptl every turn, just like you my don't need to use a TL every time you have one(perfect dice excluded) I have not use my TL many of times when I have had 3 hits and saved it for next round, this has left my options way more open.

Also with the current tlt loving meta this is a time dash can shine, that range 1 of yours is there same problem and hiding out safe in there bubble is golden .

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Being able to move literally wherever you want to even when "stuck" using a green maneuver makes Dash the easiest ship in the game to fly. Whenever you move into a bad position just boost and barrel roll into a good one.

If you're alone on a map, yes. But when you have a Soontir or Corran chasing you? It's not that simple, mate.

1.) Of course you might have a little trouble against another OP Acewing ship.

2.) Not really. Just move erratically, they still have to predict where you'll be since they actually have to get you in their arcs. Since you have a turret, it doesn't matter where you move to since you'll always have a shot they'll have no way to predict where you'll be. Then once you're out of their arc you throw your 4 dice, TL+Focus 93% to get 4/4 hits at them until you win.

Can I challenge you on Vassal? I'll play a 35-point Soontir and you can play 58-point Dash.

I have never gotten around to installing Vassal and figuring it out. Is it easy to use?

Also, I should clarify my position a bit. Yes, it may be possible to fly higher PS Acewing ships against it and have a decent chance. But when it comes to flying less than 7-8 normal ships against it like TIEs and X-Wings and B-Wings you're screwed against the thing. It's a moderately less obnoxious pre-nerf Phantom in its 55/58 point variant to ships with lower PS. When it does a one bank green it can still hop halfway across the map, it's ludicrous.

You want to propose flying something that's arguably a counter to it. Couldn't I propose the opposite, an autolose scenario with 5 academy pilots against a typical 58 point Super Dash? Really think the TIEs have any chance at all?

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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Being able to move literally wherever you want to even when "stuck" using a green maneuver makes Dash the easiest ship in the game to fly. Whenever you move into a bad position just boost and barrel roll into a good one.

If you're alone on a map, yes. But when you have a Soontir or Corran chasing you? It's not that simple, mate.

1.) Of course you might have a little trouble against another OP Acewing ship.

2.) Not really. Just move erratically, they still have to predict where you'll be since they actually have to get you in their arcs. Since you have a turret, it doesn't matter where you move to since you'll always have a shot they'll have no way to predict where you'll be. Then once you're out of their arc you throw your 4 dice, TL+Focus 93% to get 4/4 hits at them until you win.

Can I challenge you on Vassal? I'll play a 35-point Soontir and you can play 58-point Dash.

I have never gotten around to installing Vassal and figuring it out. Is it easy to use?

Also, I should clarify my position a bit. Yes, it may be possible to fly higher PS Acewing ships against it and have a decent chance. But when it comes to flying less than 7-8 normal ships against it like TIEs and X-Wings and B-Wings you're screwed against the thing. It's a moderately less obnoxious pre-nerf Phantom in its 55/58 point variant to ships with lower PS. When it does a one bank green it can still hop halfway across the map, it's ludicrous.

You want to propose flying something that's arguably a counter to it. Couldn't I propose the opposite, an autolose scenario with 5 academy pilots against a typical 58 point Super Dash? Really think the TIEs have any chance at all?

 

 

I've been talking about Soontir and Corran since the very beginning. I've never once mentioned Academy Pilots who of course are a poor matchup to Dash.

 

And yes. I'm precisely proposing flying Soontir against your Dash because you refused to accept that Dash is susceptible to Soontir and I would like to show you otherwise.

 

But now you're saying it's unfair because Soontir is a counter and an autolose scenario for you. I hope you realize how contradictory you're being.

 

 

Superdash is powerful - yes. But it has very hard counters in aces (as I've been insisting) and stress - both of which are very common in this meta. No matter how you spin it, it's not the behemoth that pre-nerf Phantoms were.

Look at how Superdash performed at Worlds. Swiss rankings of 7, 13, 105, 139. Four appearances in ~300 players.

Edited by zerotc

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How you fly dash depends a bit on his loadout - as they lend to different problems.

The 58 point -  PTL Kyler, Engine, Outrider HLC variant in particular hits like a hammer, but can get bogged into green moves.

 

While this version of dash is highly mobile, even from greens - it is susceptible to being blocked - if a ship can get in front of it, it can block all of your green options. The following turn, you can probably get away - but only if you have the space to do so- (aren't trapped near a board edge / corner)

Additionally - this version has trouble with ships closing in on the donut hole (usually higher P.S. Aces) and Stressors (Rebel captive / R3-A2 / Mara Jade / etc)

TLT will also chew through your HP fairly quickly.

So - we can learn a few things about how to fly it here - against stressors - you must go all in and skip PTL - and shut down the opponents stressor first. Your wingmen will be important for this task - usually a TLT ship is also a stressor if it's rebel. So aim to cut the TLT apart quickly. You have a choice - commit Dash and the wingmen - or just the wingmen.

Your first turn move is also incredibly important - because it can give you information about your opponents intentions. If you slow play - and keep your ships far enough apart (but close enough for dash to join your wingmen if needed) you can gauge if the opponent is going to attempt to go straight for dash. (This will work against opponents, who are not thinking about trying to figure out what you are thinking and fool you). 

Second - we see that we don't want enemy ships to be able to put themselves into the space in front of us that will block a green move - so ideally we want them to be chasing us - or putting themselves in a spot that will let our wingmen punish the block.  If instead we see an ace like soontir - we want to control position so that he cannot move into our donut hole - which again means facing away from him, behind him.   Save PTL for when you need it to escape - or when your next turn green is safe.  Occasionally - you'll want to pull a non green move while stressed, it's quite possible to throw off the opponent if they believe you are predictable.

Look back up to your diagram - dash moves in a semi predictable direction towards a corner. - Dash's pattern should be much more erratic.  You should move in more closely - and dash past the opponent - then it's a matter of keeping ahead of their turns - and if they instead K-turn to face you, you're going to trade with actions vs none.  Dash plays like an arc dodger in many cases - trying to snipe from a range 2-3 position, at a  bad angle for the opponents to get arc on. (I agree with the action photo above)

Third - Asteroids are your friends - Debris is your bestest buddy.  You can fire while on debris - but you can move through them with impunity - this means you can fly where you are unlikely to be blocked (p.s. if you're crazy, you may try blocking dash by flying your ship into an asteroid.. and it can be amazing)  Turning / boosting / rolling onto an asteroid, and then boost/rolling off the obstacle, can both give you cover - and help put you in a position the opponent doesn't want to turn directly at. 

Ideally - you're going to trade your wingmen for as much health as possible on an endgame dash - and as few enemy ships as possible.  (Other lists like Dash + Corran, work on the - either ship is an endgame boss principle). Bait the opponent with dash - let your wingmen do the work - dash will take whatever shot he can get - from the safest place he can get. 

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Superdash is great, if you can get the hang of it. DashCo is my main go-to list and I enjoy moderate success with it, but I keep seeing other top tier players in my area make glaring errors with it. There have been some really excellent points made about not always hitting PtL and deploying at a 10 degree offset (I'm at 22.5 degree guy but that's the maths teacher in me). My main three points to add are:
 

1. Remember, the barrel roll will move you an entire range boundary to the side (great if they've snuck into your doughnut).
2. If they focus on Dash, you can lead them on a merry chase while the rest of your list goes to work.

3. You can sometimes catch the opponent off guard with a range 4 move on turn 1, just getting to the tip of range 3 while focused and target locked.

 

I personally like 
Dash (36)
Push the Limit (3)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Outrider (5)

Lando Calrissian (3)

 

Corran (35)
R2-D2 (4)
Push the Limit (3)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Total: 100

 

Not going for Kyle Katarn stops tempting you into hitting PtL every turn just because you want to keep the combo going. Lando is one of my favourite cards (and works very well against low model count lists), also you can't beat the look on an opponents face when he gets inside the doughnut with an ATK3 ship and you're holding 2 evades and a focus.
 

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Lots of replies ... whow, thanks! :D

 

Played a few games with the basic 58 Dash and 42 Corran yesterday against 4 Y - TLT lists. Not because it's the best list, but it's a nice benchmark, if you can constantly beat that list, chances are good your list will do well (at least imo).

Actually the list didn't play that bad, but lost anyway, pretty much as expected actually. I found a interesting video earlier from the spanish Nationals, that features exactly the same matchup.

In two games it came down to Corran against 2 Y. While I played Corran for quite a while recently in his PTL version and almost always came out ahead in this scenario, the VI version of him didn't cope so well actually.

... which isn't really suprising, but at least motivated me to redo the list.

 

This is the build I prefer by a LOT: 

 

Dash Rendar (36)

Push the Limit (3)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Nien Nunb (1)
Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2)
Outrider (5)
 
Corran Horn (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
R2-D2 (4)
Shield Upgrade (4)
 
Total: 100
 

 

 

That's a very similar list to mine I have right now:

 

Corran Horn (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Fire-Control System (2)
R2-D2 (4)
Engine Upgrade (4)

Dash Rendar (36)
Push the Limit (3)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Nien Nunb (1)
Outrider (5)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

 

Sure, Dash lacks APL, but Corran on the other hand is just a monster. At least for me this version worked really well recently, winning me our local league and placing 4th in a 24 man tournament, not loosing him once. He had other wingmen though, but most of the time he did 90% of the work anyway.

 

 

What I really don't like about my list it that it has a really terrible matchup against Aces like Soontir, Vader, Whisper etc. Basically everthing that can get into Range 1 of Dash and avoid getting double-tapped by Corran.

However against everything else with lower PS than Corran, I expect this list to do pretty well against.

Edited by surly88

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Lots of replies ... whow, thanks! :D

 

Played a few games with the basic 58 Dash and 42 Corran yesterday against 4 Y - TLT lists. Not because it's the best list, but it's a nice benchmark, if you can constantly beat that list, chances are good your list will do well (at least imo).

Actually the list didn't play that bad, but lost anyway, pretty much as expected actually. I found a interesting video earlier from the spanish Nationals, that features exactly the same matchup.

In two games it came down to Corran against 2 Y. While I played Corran for quite a while recently in his PTL version and almost always came out ahead in this scenario, the VI version of him didn't cope so well actually.

... which isn't really suprising, but at least motivated me to redo the list.

 

This is the build I prefer by a LOT: 

 

Dash Rendar (36)

Push the Limit (3)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Nien Nunb (1)
Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2)
Outrider (5)
 
Corran Horn (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
R2-D2 (4)
Shield Upgrade (4)
 
Total: 100
 

 

 

That's a very similar list to mine I have right now:

 

Corran Horn (35)

Push the Limit (3)

Fire-Control System (2)

R2-D2 (4)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Dash Rendar (36)

Push the Limit (3)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Nien Nunb (1)

Outrider (5)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

 

Sure, Dash lacks APL, but Corran on the other hand is just a monster. At least for me this version worked really well recently, winning me our local league and placing 4th in a 24 man tournament, not loosing him once. He had other wingmen though, but most of the time he did 90% of the work anyway.

 

 

What I really don't like about my list it that it has a really terrible matchup against Aces like Soontir, Vader, Whisper etc. Basically everthing that can get into Range 1 of Dash and avoid getting double-tapped by Corran.

However against everything else with lower PS than Corran, I expect this list to do pretty well against.

Hence APL and VI Corran.  

 

Though, I really see the merit to your version! 

 

(Also imo, I'm not used to Corran with EU, so I can run without and make full use of BR. )

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I'd be up for the 5 academies vs Dash challenge.

I'm not sure I could pull it off - Dash can pop ties with HLC as he skirts around. If I can block him, and keep him blocked in, especially along an edge near a corner - I can stay in the donut and get multiple 3 die attacks off.   So - it's a cat and mouse positioning game, that has to be played in triple time - as if it takes too long, the ties pop before the magic happens... 

Definitely not impossible, but not easy.

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Hence APL and VI Corran.  

 

Though, I really see the merit to your version! 

 

(Also imo, I'm not used to Corran with EU, so I can run without and make full use of BR. )

 

Yeah as mentioned I simply love his PTL build ... I don't know, I tried him a lot with VI since I really wanted to make this version work, but for whatever reason he refuses me decent rolls with his green dice, even when I fly him super defensive. His other PTL version on the other hand literally flies and rolls like he's on crack, therefore slaughtering everthing with lower PS that himself :blink:

Edited by surly88

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I'd be up for the 5 academies vs Dash challenge.

I'm not sure I could pull it off - Dash can pop ties with HLC as he skirts around. If I can block him, and keep him blocked in, especially along an edge near a corner - I can stay in the donut and get multiple 3 die attacks off.   So - it's a cat and mouse positioning game, that has to be played in triple time - as if it takes too long, the ties pop before the magic happens... 

Definitely not impossible, but not easy.

 

I would do it.  But, there's a lot that's down to "luck".  I'd have to land some blocks, and not whiffle my green dice.  With bad green dice, you could easily lose a tie every shot.  And its unlikely you can get all the 4 or so ties into R1.  Though with a block, Dash should only have focus.  

Yeah.  Actually.  I could do it, but not consistently. 

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The key to beating Super Dash in my experience is either carry your own hlc so you can beat him at the range 3 kiting game or just don't chase him. That sounds maybe like asinine advice, but playing against a variety of dashes I always find if I take a second to break the natural desire to chase behind him and instead split up and apply pressure from two sides everything goes wonderfully.

Conversely, when playing dash, do everything you can to get your enemy chasing after you while you do laps and lob 4 dice backwards at them.

Edited by nigeltastic

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I've beat the last two Dashes I've faced with an Obsidian Swarm, but they didn't have EU which makes it much more managable.

 

I find the key to beating Superdash is to get a ship in front of him. Unless you're driving Dash towards a corner, you'll never catch up.

Alternative: driving dash into a conner ;)

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I've beat the last two Dashes I've faced with an Obsidian Swarm, but they didn't have EU which makes it much more managable.

 

I find the key to beating Superdash is to get a ship in front of him. Unless you're driving Dash towards a corner, you'll never catch up.

Alternative: driving dash into a conner ;)

 

 

conned into a conner corner?

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Every time I used Super Dash or even played against him, I was underwhelmed. I eventually went toa different Dash build that has been a huge success. So not to change the subject on making typical Super Dash work, but I just figured I should share my preferred and less common Dash build with you in case you want to take it for a spin. Trademarked “Grumpy Dash” ;)

 

I played this Dash in my 6-2 World's list with a wing-mate of Ten Numb. I will justify the build further down, but here are the upgrades:

 

Grumpy Dash

 

Outrider Title

Predator

Mangler Cannon

R2-D2

Hull Upgrade

 

My sales pitch/justifications are this:

 

Mangler Cannon over HLC: 

 

  • Take away weakness 1: The Donut Hole. People take advantage of the Donut hole and know how to play against it.
  • Creates a much more consistent threat to ALL of your possible targets.
  • HLC only matters if you actually roll 4 hits AND the Crit of Mangler could be a direct hit (Or better or worse of course)

 

Predator over PTL:

 

  • Take away weakness 2: Predictable Green Moves. Being able to fully use the crazy dial of the YT2400 is a huge difference in how you can humiliate opposing ships and make Dash basically dominate positionally. (AND with Mangler Range 1 behind a non-turret is a happy place)
  • Modification of your shot at all times gives you a huge percentage to get 3 hits every time and allows you to use your action to Barrel roll or focus every turn based on board positioning.
  • Grumpy Dash doesn’t care about getting stressed or blocked as much. Getting extra stress or getting blocked will decimate a Super Dash, while the build I propose overall will be much more resilient to these common tactics. Shot modification, healing, and being able to shoot at range 1 all attribute to this.

 

R2-D2 and Hull Upgrade:

 

  • Help with weakness 3: Half Point Large Base Rule. The Hull upgrade brings you to 11 total meaning that once shield are stripped you are NOT yet worth half, THEN R2-D2 can heal a shield and hopefully stay in that sweet spot. Even with one damage card on you can heal a shield with R2 and still be at 6 of 11 total health left to NOT give up half your points. Call this a math edge.
  • The other obvious benefit is R2-D2 actually keeping Dash alive in general. Healing 2 shields with R2-D2 is worth his cost, any more and his value becomes immense. The downside of a nasty crit is of course there, but Dash doesn’t care about most crits.

 

 

 Anywho, that’s Grumpy Dash. His biggest weakness/argument against him is that he isn’t throwing 4 dice. If you are anything like me, then you don’t often get all 4 hits off HLC either, PLUS I end up having to boost AND barrel roll with Super Dash so with just a focus I am lucky to land even 3 hits.

 

Also Lone Wolf gets brought up all the time, and trough testing it never paid off for me. I often will roll and NOT have a focus and then I can’t re-roll the eyes like I can with Predator. There are also lots of low PS ships bopping around and Predator helps to ensure I get the max 3 damage on with 2 re-rolls instead of the single Lone Wolf die. The biggest argument is the defense lone wolf provides, but I feel it’s more important to focus on positioning and consistent offense. Especially before my wing-mate dies. I like to make the best positional move at all times and that is often within range 2 of my wing-mate.

 

So sorry for this sidetrack, but this is the Dash build I have come to after many Dash games, so maybe give old Grumpy Dash a spin and see how you like him. Ten Numb as the wing-mate is of course optional. J

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