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kamenhanji

2 Question about REACH and HIRED GUNS

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Hello there.

We just start a new campaign with my players, and I love HIRED GUNS, but we have a question here.

 

HIRED GUNS' ability "Parting shot", makes him can perform an attack when being defeated.

And I choosed TECHNOLOGICAL SUPERIORITY as my Imperial class.

So, when I attached "Experimental Arms" on HIRED GUNS, which I can suffer 1 health after the attack resolved to gain +1 surge, when a HIRED GUN is defeated and use his Parting shot ability, is this still work? Can I use the Experimental Arms to apply +1 surge in this attack? 

 

Another question is about melee reach attack.

When the attacker (RED one) stand behind a wall, like this picture, can I attack every colored point?  

OyGaJkZ.jpg

 

One rebel players, who often plays Descent as EVIL LORD says I can only attack the BLACK point in this kind of situation in Descent.

But BLUE, GREEN and YELLOW points are also legal target right? 

 

 

Thanks for the answers anyway.

Edited by kamenhanji

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Hello there.

We just start a new campaign with my players, and I love HIRED GUNS, but we have a question here.

 

HIRED GUNS' ability "Parting shot", makes him can perform an attack when being defeated.

And I choosed TECHNOLOGICAL SUPERIORITY as my Imperial class.

So, when I attached "Experimental Arms" on HIRED GUNS, which I can suffer 1 health after the attack resolved to gain +1 surge, when a HIRED GUN is defeated and use his Parting shot ability, is this still work? Can I use the Experimental Arms to apply +1 surge in this attack? 

 

Another question is about melee reach attack.

When the attacker (RED one) stand behind a wall, like this picture, can I attack every colored point?  

OyGaJkZ.jpg

 

One rebel players, who often plays Descent as EVIL LORD says I can only attack the BLACK point in this kind of situation in Descent.

But BLUE, GREEN and YELLOW points are also legal target right? 

 

 

Thanks for the answers anyway.

I see no reason why you couldn't use experimental arms on a parting shot attack (I don't think it's actually good though).

 

In the second case you're both wrong actually, Blue and Black are okay (both are 2 squares away from red), Yellow and Green are 3 spaces away and thus out of range (you can't count spaces through the wall).

Edited by Norgrath

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Hello there.

We just start a new campaign with my players, and I love HIRED GUNS, but we have a question here.

 

HIRED GUNS' ability "Parting shot", makes him can perform an attack when being defeated.

And I choosed TECHNOLOGICAL SUPERIORITY as my Imperial class.

So, when I attached "Experimental Arms" on HIRED GUNS, which I can suffer 1 health after the attack resolved to gain +1 surge, when a HIRED GUN is defeated and use his Parting shot ability, is this still work? Can I use the Experimental Arms to apply +1 surge in this attack? 

 

Another question is about melee reach attack.

When the attacker (RED one) stand behind a wall, like this picture, can I attack every colored point?  

OyGaJkZ.jpg

 

One rebel players, who often plays Descent as EVIL LORD says I can only attack the BLACK point in this kind of situation in Descent.

But BLUE, GREEN and YELLOW points are also legal target right? 

 

 

Thanks for the answers anyway.

I see no reason why you couldn't use experimental arms on a parting shot attack (I don't think it's actually good though).

 

In the second case you're both wrong actually, Blue and Black are okay (both are 2 squares away from red), Yellow and Green are 3 spaces away and thus out of range.

 

The reason is rebels said the HIRED GUN already suffered damage equal to it's health, so I have no health to trigger experimental arms.

But when experimental arms makes 1 damage is after the attack is resolved, so I think it's okay to use.

 

And you are right, GREEN and YELLOW are 3 space. It's my bad  

 

Thanks for the answers.

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Another question is about melee reach attack.

When the attacker (RED one) stand behind a wall, like this picture, can I attack every colored point?  

OyGaJkZ.jpg

 

One rebel players, who often plays Descent as EVIL LORD says I can only attack the BLACK point in this kind of situation in Descent.

But BLUE, GREEN and YELLOW points are also legal target right? 

 

 

 

The only valid melee target from the red attacker (assuming the attacker has Reach) is the black defender. LOS cannot be drawn to any of the other points.

"Reach", RRG, Page 22:

 

A figure with this keyword may perform (melee) attacks that target figures up to 2 spaces away.

 

• The attacking figure must have line of sight to the target in order to make this attack.

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For what it is worth, I also agree that Experimental Arms could be used during the Parting Shot. Parting Shot is an interrupt which triggers right before removing the Hired Gun. The damage from Experimental Arms is not applied until after the Parting Shot is resolved, and would be ignored.

 

"Damage", RRG, Page 10:

 

A figure cannot suffer (damage) in excess of its Health. Any (damage) over this amount has no effect.

 

 

Auxahtm.png?12xNZrYT.png

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Another question is about melee reach attack.

When the attacker (RED one) stand behind a wall, like this picture, can I attack every colored point?  

OyGaJkZ.jpg

 

One rebel players, who often plays Descent as EVIL LORD says I can only attack the BLACK point in this kind of situation in Descent.

But BLUE, GREEN and YELLOW points are also legal target right? 

 

 

 

The only valid melee target from the red attacker (assuming the attacker has Reach) is the black defender. LOS cannot be drawn to any of the other points.

"Reach", RRG, Page 22:

 

A figure with this keyword may perform (melee) attacks that target figures up to 2 spaces away.

 

• The attacking figure must have line of sight to the target in order to make this attack.

 

This is correct. If the space with the black circle was empty however, the blue circle could be targeted with reach.

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For what it is worth, I also agree that Experimental Arms could be used during the Parting Shot. Parting Shot is an interrupt which triggers right before removing the Hired Gun. The damage from Experimental Arms is not applied until after the Parting Shot is resolved, and would be ignored.

 

"Damage", RRG, Page 10:

 

A figure cannot suffer (damage) in excess of its Health. Any (damage) over this amount has no effect.

 

 

Auxahtm.png?12xNZrYT.png

 

Wait ... so does this mean you can theoretically kill your own Hired Gun with Experimental Arms and thus trigger a 2nd attack in the same round? You are sacrificing a unit, but it DOES make them very interesting.

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I was considering the same and I think it is legit.

However, the main counter-argument would be that a (non-hero) figure can only attack once during its activation. I believe that it's activation ends the moment it is killed, but I could see that being contested.

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Considering that argument above, I re-read the card, I may be wrong. The timing of parting shot happens prior to defeat, which would still be during the figure's activation (if killed during it's activation), because it says "before you are defeated". Defeated is what ends the activation.

 

Sorry to back pedal on that, but it makes more sense.

Edited by Fizz

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However, the main counter-argument would be that a (non-hero) figure can only attack once during its activation.

False

 

 

A non-hero figure may only use one of it's actions to perform an attack per activation.

 

Parting shot does not use an action.

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However, the main counter-argument would be that a (non-hero) figure can only attack once during its activation.

False

 

No, true. Non-heroes (that is, figures that use deployment cards in the campaign) can only attack once per activation.

"Special Situations Regarding Attacks", RRG, Page 6:

 

Unlike heroes, a figure that has a Deployment card can use only one of its actions to attack per activation. This includes using special actions that involve performing one or more attacks (such as the Nexu’s “Pounce” or Darth Vader’s “Brutality”).

 

-- If an ability allows a figure to perform an attack outside of its activation, this attack does not count toward the limit of one attack per activation.

 

 

 

A non-hero figure may only use one of it's actions to perform an attack per activation.

 

Parting shot does not use an action.

 

Doesn't matter if it is an action or not, figures using deployment cards can only attack once per activation. See rules quoted above. Additionally, timing in this instance shows that this attack would still occur during the figure's activation.

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Brutality works because Brutality specifically calls out that it breaks the single attack rule. You need to read that fully, the RRG rule specifically calls out abilities that grant an attack, as well as the attack action.

 

When the rule boils down to (and this has been discussing to sickening detail on the forums for the past year, and has been called the "single attack rule"), is that you cannot VOLUNTARILY commit an action or use an effect that forces you to attack more than once during an action, per activation. (Again, Brutality breaks the rule. As does Assault. Cards override the rulebook).

 

Meaning, if you were to use a Nexu's Pounce, or Vader's Brutality (which expressly allows you to attack up to two targets), you cannot voluntarily choose any effect that grants ANOTHER attack during your activation, such as an attack action, or any other special action or effect during the same activation.

 

Where parting shot *NORMALLY* gets used is where the Hired Gun is killed (which normally, is not during its activation, as being defeated during your own activation is a rare event), thus the Parting Shot would not break the Single Attack Rule. However, in the case of Experimental Arms, the figure would be defeated during its own activation, and as such, follows the single attack rule.

 

So, I ruled one way, then after examining it, I changed my ruling. Go ahead and submit the "Experimental Arms + Parting Shot" query to the rules link below.

Edited by Fizz

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It calls out special actions, not abilities. It seems bizarre that it would repeatedly say "use one of its actions" if the rule extended beyond using actions.

 

I did submit a query to check though.

Edited by Norgrath

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Brutality works because Brutality specifically calls out that it breaks the single attack rule. You need to read that fully, the RRG rule specifically calls out abilities that grant an attack, as well as the attack action.

 

When the rule boils down to (and this has been discussing to sickening detail on the forums for the past year, and has been called the "single attack rule"), is that you cannot VOLUNTARILY commit an action or use an effect that forces you to attack more than once during an action, per activation. (Again, Brutality breaks the rule. As does Assault. Cards override the rulebook).

 

Meaning, if you were to use a Nexu's Pounce, or Vader's Brutality (which expressly allows you to attack up to two targets), you cannot voluntarily choose any effect that grants ANOTHER attack during your activation, such as an attack action, or any other special action or effect during the same activation.

 

Where parting shot *NORMALLY* gets used is where the Hired Gun is killed (which normally, is not during its activation, as being defeated during your own activation is a rare event), thus the Parting Shot would not break the Single Attack Rule. However, in the case of Experimental Arms, the figure would be defeated during its own activation, and as such, follows the single attack rule.

 

So, I ruled one way, then after examining it, I changed my ruling. Go ahead and submit the "Experimental Arms + Parting Shot" query to the rules link below.

The "single attack rule" only applies to actions. Not sure where you are getting "or use an effect that forces you to attack" from. Parting shot allows you to interupt to perform an attack, it does not use an action to attack.

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I forgot about the FAQ ruling they made once they added the card "Lead By Example". But yeah, you're right, it is based off of actions.

 

Twin Shadows did a wonderful job turning some old rulings on their heads.

 

Guess you can call me Fizzflop now.

Edited by Fizz

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Twin Shadows did a wonderful job turning some old rulings on their heads.

Twin shadows didn't change the rule. Saying a figure can't perform multiple attacks per activation if only one of them used an action was never reasonable (well maybe not never, but certainly not after reading the rules).

 

Confirmation from Paul by the way:

 

Yes, if something other than performing an action allows a figure to perform additional attacks, it may. The restriction on figures is that a figure may only spend 1 action to perform an attack per activation (this is why Vader’s Brutality, for example, is legal). So, if a Hired Gun performs an attack and then is defeated on its own activation, it may still performing its Parting Shot since that ability is not “spending an action to perform an attack.”

Edited by Norgrath

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