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Riku Riekkinen

Yours abilities won't work, since you have init?

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From FAQ v323 p14:

 

"Q: If both players have effects that resolve at the same time (or from the same trigger), which player resolves their abilities first?

A: The player with initiative resolves all abilities he would like to resolve, then the other player resolves all abilities he would like to resolve."

 

I feel this ruling is not so good as there are more and more abilities that work outside of modify dice steps (in which the order isn't done by initiative). Abilities working based on who has initiative just feels wrong. I mean I can play with the ruling, but rather would see it changed. Examples:

 

1) Ion projector:

 

Already ionized ship collides to a ship with ion projector. If the ionized ship owner has init, the ions are cleared first and then ion projector rolled (enabling permanent ion trap). If the ion projector dude has init, the ion is rolled first and the result doesn't matter, since ions are cleared anyways.

 

2) Bossk & draw their fire (DTF)

 

Bossk works after Crack Shot (= compare results step) as does DTF (well Xizor could be here also). If the Bossk player has init, Bossk can change 1c->2h before other player can use DTF (making DTF unusable). If Bossk doesn't, the other player can use DTF first.

 

So, if you have contacts in playtesting / FAQ writing and don't like the current ruling (abilities depending on the init), please at least consider this. 

 

"Q: If both players have effects that resolve at the same time (or from the same trigger), which player resolves their abilities first?

A: The active player (currently excecuting manouver or shooting) resolves all abilities he would like to resolve, then the other player resolves all abilities he would like to resolve. In case there is no active player the player with initiative resolves all abilities he would like to resolve, then the other player resolves all abilities he would like to resolve."

 

Or something. Other than initiative.

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Bossk (Pilot) triggers right at the start of the Deal Damage step (step 7 of the Attack), not before. All the results need to be made and finished before that step is reached. Right at the moment that damage is to be dealt does the one Kablam turn into two Booms.

 

The case of Bossk vs. DTF is already addressed in the FAQ too as you noted:
 

When a ship is hit by Bossk’s attack, Bossk
may cancel a <Kaboom> result to add 2 <Boom> results
before Draw Their Fire or Xizor’s ability can
be used.

 

These are such minute cases of the rules, that it's going to be fairly infrequent that they'd come up. Yes, they can come up, and they've already resolved that they're dealt with by initiative. Build you squad accordingly, knowing how the rules will be implemented.

Edited by Slugrage

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OK, Bossk was a bad example, since its FAQd in Bossk entry, sorry. However Ion Projector is surely real for now. Also Bossk FAQ entry kind of enforces me thinking there should be general FAQ answer to timing that works (my answer would work there). There is no grave problems now, but as more and more abilities are invented outside dice mod steps, it would be best to react sooner than later.

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I think the only change that is needed for this fix has already been made. You have the option to take initiative, instead of you winning it dnd having to keep it. Many lists prefer having initiative, especially the ace and arc dodger lists, but if your lists works better without it, you can give it away

Edited by Edrahil135

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Seems like it is working fine as ruled. There has to be a rule for this kind of timing and their current ruling seems like the best one. Someone has to go first. What's the other option besides initiative? Flip a coin every time it comes up?

I have suggested an answer at the end of my original post. Bossk FAQ kind of tells me they want attacking (active) abilities first, since it tells Bossk/DTF worked in init order after realease, but before FAQ change. I can live with this ruling, but woudn't it be good to make the ruling more general than FAQing several cards invidually (also there is a wait between card & FAQ)?

 

For the road: Caiptain Oicunn (1hp) collides palpmobile (1hp) with APL. Initiative wins, not shooting phase, so Simultaneous Attack Rule won't trigger.

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There's the chance the APL may result in nothing happening. So long Emperor. At least you didn't fall to your death this time.

 

Really, it feels like you're kind of grasping at straws here trying to find a problem to fit your proposed solution... which I'm not sure you're really put forward. Have you? Oh wait... Is it the "Or something?" part? It's kind of unclear. Or something.

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Here's one we actually had come up in a tourney a couple weeks ago:

 

Corran with 1h remaining and R2D2 does a green move into Dash w/APL. What happens first? Does Corran get to regen a shield first, or do you roll for APL first?

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There's the chance the APL may result in nothing happening. So long Emperor. At least you didn't fall to your death this time.

 

Really, it feels like you're kind of grasping at straws here trying to find a problem to fit your proposed solution... which I'm not sure you're really put forward. Have you? Oh wait... Is it the "Or something?" part? It's kind of unclear. Or something.

I'm just saying that initiative is lame solution fin a  long run and it wouldn't have to be the answer. I wish playtesters would keep keen eye on future mods and see, if the timing rule should be changed. In Serrate's example again the one who has init, does his/her thing first.

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Psst... rules subforum.

I thought about it, but there has been these larger discussions about rules in general (TL checking etc). While my post discusses rules, it isn't about unclear rules or their intentions. Its the state of the game. While I can see this is kind of whining (though I'm not doing it because some of lists don't work, I'm doing it to help playtesters note hazardous points), I can see this has not been vain as I noted Theory during a league game of the rules & now Serrate also says he had black hole regarding this rule. It tells me people haven't really thought about it. Notably every new card currently has to FAQd against every existing card (unless a good universal rule is done... and currently FAQ tells even FFG doesn't like current rule in many cases) . So the problem is just raising, we see the tip of the iceberg now.

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Playtesters don't make games. Game companies make games. Game companies use playtesters to suggest things. Game company can entirely ignore whatever playtesters suggest.

 

I like that having initiative is not the all power godlike creature in X-Wing that most other games have it to be. Sometimes, you don't want to go first. In Armada, it's very often the case that you *want* to give initiative to the other player. It's all about learning when having init will help you, and when it won't.  Build your squads accordingly.

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FFG has been very reasonable in listening playtesters. I could have started my rampage by posting directly to FFG, but since I know that is better to discuss it further & do it through established playtester, if necessary, I'll try it that way. I won't push it further, if it seems there is no need. I just predict there will be major FAQ change to timing in the future (current wild west situation is unstable).

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So the "execute maneuver step" is the full completion of clearing stress and ion tokens etc...

 

Ion Projector doesn't trigger until after that step so initiative doesn't affect this "Ion Loop" you are questioning...

 

Like the FAQ entry for APL: "The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers only resolves if an enemy ship is touching the ship equipped with Anti-Pursuit Lasers after executing its maneuver"

 

 

Also R2-D2 is in the FAQ and clearly states if you bump a APL ship you recover the shield before rolling for APL.Further cementing the initiative examples you bring up are NOT even issues.

 

In regards to the final nugget mentioned...I don't understand why you mention the "Oicunn vs Palp Shuttle" item...simultaneous attack only matters for attacks. So yes just like R2 Oicunn would kill the Palp shuttle. Nothing "Goes on the stack in Xwing" NOR does that have anything to do with initiative...That's like saying you flew through a rock and died before the opponent could fly into your final position and die because you had APL...

 

This is a game that has been through 4 years and 4 World Championships...the core rules do not really need questioning at this point.

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OK, again sorry for R2D2. However as with Bossk, its FAQd separately even though it could have been done with a reasonable timing FAQ.

 

Regarding of changing ther core rules: I don't have a gripe with core rules. The core rules don't consider much timing outside of modifying dice step. The problem is there starts to more and more abilities outside dice modifying.

 

About Captain Oicunn vs APL palpshuttle: Why would Oicunn kill palpshuttle, if owner of palpshuttle had init? Both abilities trigger after the movement & there is no specific FAQ in either of them about it (now I checked ;) ). Same for ion projector.

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So the "execute maneuver step" is the full completion of clearing stress and ion tokens etc...

 

Ion Projector doesn't trigger until after that step so initiative doesn't affect this "Ion Loop" you are questioning...

That's not entirely accurate. The Ion Token entry in the Rules Reference Guide states, "The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [1 straight] maneuver. After executing this maneuver, remove all ion tokens from the ship." Ion tokens get removed after executing a maneuver, which is the same timing as the Ion Projector, so the OP is correct in his assessment.

 

I think it's a bit of a bummer, but that's just the way it goes. I think it's fine to let initiative determine these interactions. If the developers think it's a problem, they'll write an FAQ for it.

Edited by Budgernaut

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So the "execute maneuver step" is the full completion of clearing stress and ion tokens etc...

 

Ion Projector doesn't trigger until after that step so initiative doesn't affect this "Ion Loop" you are questioning...

That's not entirely accurate. The Ion Token entry in the Rules Reference Guide states, "The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [1 straight] maneuver. After executing this maneuver, remove all ion tokens from the ship." Ion tokens get removed after executing a maneuver, which is the same timing as the Ion Projector, so the OP is correct in his assessment.

 

I think it's a bit of a bummer, but that's just the way it goes. I think it's fine to let initiative determine these interactions. If the developers think it's a problem, they'll write an FAQ for it.

 

 

It is NOT "same timing" There is no nest or initiative order of operations. Of course it's your initiative turn to move or you wouldn't be moving your ship to be flying into an APL or Ion Projector in the first place...So you would always be the active ship in this case.

 

You remove your ion token after you "execute your move", BEFORE APL and Ion Projector effects. Just like R2-D2 healing you BEFORE APL or Ion Projector rolls. That is always the order of these effects.

 

This does NOT "use initiative" to determine what happens first. In direct contradiction to the OP's statement that initiative somehow matters in this case, which it does NOT.

Edited by dantop83

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dantop83: Initiative is determined at the start of the game (lower points squad owner decides or in case of tie, winner off a roll decidec). It doesn't go back & forth during activations / shots. Same person has the initiative through the whole game.

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Thinking about Bossk & R2D2 made me realize how bad the current timing ruling is. FAQ does clarify certain unlclear aspects. It doesn't generally make rulings that contradict another rules (just clarifies). Except in this case. There is nothing unclear how things should happen with R2D2, if there was no specific FAQ writing. Now the specific FAQ writing overrides the general rule (which should not ne FAQs role, just clarifying). That is confusing rules writing and should be avoided.

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So the "execute maneuver step" is the full completion of clearing stress and ion tokens etc...

 

Ion Projector doesn't trigger until after that step so initiative doesn't affect this "Ion Loop" you are questioning...

That's not entirely accurate. The Ion Token entry in the Rules Reference Guide states, "The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [1 straight] maneuver. After executing this maneuver, remove all ion tokens from the ship." Ion tokens get removed after executing a maneuver, which is the same timing as the Ion Projector, so the OP is correct in his assessment.

 

I think it's a bit of a bummer, but that's just the way it goes. I think it's fine to let initiative determine these interactions. If the developers think it's a problem, they'll write an FAQ for it.

 

 

It is NOT "same timing" There is no nest or initiative order of operations. Of course it's your initiative turn to move or you wouldn't be moving your ship to be flying into an APL or Ion Projector in the first place...So you would always be the active ship in this case.

 

You remove your ion token after you "execute your move", BEFORE APL and Ion Projector effects. Just like R2-D2 healing you BEFORE APL or Ion Projector rolls. That is always the order of these effects.

 

This does NOT "use initiative" to determine what happens first. In direct contradiction to the OP's statement that initiative somehow matters in this case, which it does NOT.

 

You are confusing the term "initiative" with "active player."

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Is this thread for real?

Do you really think they are going to change the rules of the game that been doing well because you don't like it?

Plus your bad examples

Game is great the way it is

Edited by Krynn007

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There is a lot of discussion in this forum about alternate solutions to things, example thread "Should TLT had required to spend focus?" So any particular reason why you are flipping in this thread? Also I don't believe that you want the game not to change anymore. I believe you are waiting next wave as the rest of us. And what specifically is wrong with my examples?

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This is part of the game

Do you want initiative or not

Some do and cut 2-4 pts off their squad.

What your suggesting takes away a huge part of the game.

Your Oicunn example

Someone uses a list with Oicunn.

He collides into the shuttle

It takes a dmg.

I dont see what's wrong with that

That's a guaranteed dmg, so that is on the shuttle player who put himself in that position

The apl is a dice roll that I've seldom seen hit so again I don't see the problem.

The whole ion thing again I don't see the issue.

If you run into my ship that has ion projector on it, I don't see how initiative really matters

Your rolling for it either way

If your already ion, then you'll lose them and possibly get another

It's about being smart with what you have and with what your opponent has

Just don't let yourself get into that position

If having int is a problem then count for it when list building and flying.

Play testers don't make the rules they just make sure the game pieces are balanced and report their findings and ffg adjusts where needed

What your asking for is a change to the game that has been out a few years

Edited by Krynn007

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I see you are quite far off:

1) FAQ changes very often, about once per month

2) Playtesters also (in addition to balancing) report strange combos / FAQ mistakes / suggestions to FAQ

3) You clearly haven't looked deeply rules for Ion Projector / Captain Oicunn. See Budgernaut's answer on the first page.

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