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Marinealver

Should TLT had required to spend focus?

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A BTL TLT is not the same as normal, turreted TLTs. Also, are you just dismissing Poe? 

 

And how many TLTs did his opponent have? 

Zero. Isn't that why he lost?  :o

 

 

yes, that's why he lost to the triple TLT K-wing list

 

 

 

man, I know overreacting to competitive results is kind of the thing you do on the internet, but I've seen such a blatant misappropriation of credit to a single upgrade as this

 

PSA: Heaver's list had one TLT. The other Y just had a T, the remaining "TL" having been eaten up by the BTL-a4 title.

 

it is there purely to project the power of r3-a2, god of stress, which is utterly ruinous to thruster ships that TLTs cannot really touch on their own

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TLTs are the new hotness. It will blow over (not go away). They are a boogie man that are used on ships that we already have the tools to take out. Its only really a threat to low agility ships. If thats all you bring to the fight, you will have a hard time. 

 

And the new meta seems to revolve around control. Control of the dice and stress.  Paul Heaver's list was Poe, Stress wing, and support. Nathan Eide's list consisted of Poe, Corran, and a blocker. 

 To be honest I thought the new boogieman had already been crowned as Palpmobil. The TLT histeria had already died down befor worlds. Controll has always been important, but never as much as now!

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TLT is fine as it is. Maybe a little undercost, but that's it.

 

If we needed a Focus to fire it, it would go into the 'never-used' Upgrade card pile. What we got instead is an Upgrade card that finally made the Y-Wing (and maybe the HWK) a real threat, and I'm all for it! A TLT Y-Wing is now a very good way to spend 24-26 points, you'll get value for your points. Is it an auto-include? No, there is a lot of other good options in the game. Having an upgrade that is a good value but not auto-include is the sign of a healthy game.

 

Thing is, we are getting to a point where every ship bring something special to the table. When they get into the dark, they get some boost to bring them into the light again: Autothrusters brought the Intercepor back; Advanced title brought the Tie Advanced back; and now TLT brought the Y-Wing back.

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No question about it.   The answer is yes!!!!   100%   

 

Since the Blaster requires it, it just makes sense

 

 

Nice opinion. Got any more?

 

Sure!   It costs only a few more points then the blaster, It has better range, and shoots twice per turn, You don't have to worry about bumping because you can still shoot.   Forcing it to use a Focus to fire, forces pilots to fly better and build better.   

 

What is the ultimate goal in this game?   To fly better than the other guy and out maneuver him, or force him to fly better.    However, all this does is make people who don't fly their ships well able to be on board with those who do.      

 

  Everyone says get to range 1 and in their bubble, but even if you do your poor ship that is at range 2-3 or gets shot every turn.    What skill does it take to roll dice, not a lot.    They can teach Monkeys and other animals to do it.      

 

We all know if it required a focus to fire, 6 points would be fine for it, but now it's under costed and we all know it.   It should be 8 points minimum like the emperor.

Edited by eagletsi111

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No question about it.   The answer is yes!!!!   100%   

 

Since the Blaster requires it, it just makes sense

 

 

Nice opinion. Got any more?

 

Sure!   It costs only a few more points then the blaster, It has better range, and shoots twice per turn, You don't have to worry about bumping because you can still shoot.   Forcing it to use a Focus to fire, forces pilots to fly better and build better.   

 

What is the ultimate goal in this game?   To fly better than the other guy and out maneuver him, or force him to fly better.    However, all this does is make people who don't fly their ships well able to be on board with those who do.      

 

  Everyone says get to range 1 and in their bubble, but even if you do your poor ship that is at range 2-3 or gets shot every turn.    What skill does it take to roll dice, not a lot.    They can teach Monkeys and other animals to do it.      

 

We all know if it required a focus to fire, 6 points would be fine for it, but now it's under costed and we all know it.   It should be 8 points minimum like the emperor.

No it doesn't. The Y-Wings that use TLT already Focus. This just makes them waste an action and makes them less likely to consider red maneuvers.

 

And unless you think Paul Heaver can't fly well, it's clear skill still trumps all with TLTs around. Your trained monkey didn't win Worlds this year. 

Edited by WingedSpider

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No question about it.   The answer is yes!!!!   100%   

 

Since the Blaster requires it, it just makes sense

 

 

Nice opinion. Got any more?

 

Sure!   It costs only a few more points then the blaster, It has better range, and shoots twice per turn, You don't have to worry about bumping because you can still shoot.   Forcing it to use a Focus to fire, forces pilots to fly better and build better.   

 

What is the ultimate goal in this game?   To fly better than the other guy and out maneuver him, or force him to fly better.    However, all this does is make people who don't fly their ships well able to be on board with those who do.      

 

  Everyone says get to range 1 and in their bubble, but even if you do your poor ship that is at range 2-3 or gets shot every turn.    What skill does it take to roll dice, not a lot.    They can teach Monkeys and other animals to do it.      

 

We all know if it required a focus to fire, 6 points would be fine for it, but now it's under costed and we all know it.   It should be 8 points minimum like the emperor.

 

force use of Focus and suddenly it has no modification, it is useless against stress foes like rebel captive Deci, fears blockers...

 

Fly better?

high PS boost is the cancerous growth that completely demolished that part.

making  a boost is something not only monkeys but even hamsters can be taught.

 

the golden age of X-wing was before boost ruined everything. TLT is a flawed solution to boost-fest,

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TLTs in Epic are pretty argh ...

A bunch of them eat Raiders.

 

sheesh.. haven't played epic sind the tlts.. 

yeah, -there- might be a problem. 

 

nothing we can't  fix with houserules though. epic needs them anyway to be fun (IMO everybody who uses a huge ship shoots himself in the foot; they are not as "cost effective" as normal ships. so for example, we use 300+100points, where 300p you can do anything with and 100 MUST be spend on huge ships. epic without epic ships is just not that.. epic ;))

so there may be another to limit tlts vs huge ships.. maybe. or simply yet more TIEs  to blow those ywings into next tuesday. ;-) 

Edited by WokeUpDead

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the golden age of X-wing was before boost ruined everything. TLT is a flawed solution to boost-fest,

 

 

So... Wave 1 with only X-Wing, Y-Wing, Tie Fighter and Tie Advanced then. Sure, why not.

 

and wave 2 with not_yet_fat falcons, not_yet_uber_ceptors, yes.\

 

everything went downhill when Phantoms arrived and ANNIHILATED everything but PS9+ boosters. 

Phantoms got a taste of Nerfbat then, but people got a knack of boost-fest so it went on even without brainless whispering.

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the golden age of X-wing was before boost ruined everything. TLT is a flawed solution to boost-fest,

 

 

So... Wave 1 with only X-Wing, Y-Wing, Tie Fighter and Tie Advanced then. Sure, why not.

 

and wave 2 with not_yet_fat falcons, not_yet_uber_ceptors, yes.\

 

everything went downhill when Phantoms arrived and ANNIHILATED everything but PS9+ boosters. 

Phantoms got a taste of Nerfbat then, but people got a knack of boost-fest so it went on even without brainless whispering.

 

 

sorry, but engine upgrade came with the falcon, right..? so to follow your train of thought .... since falcon = "boostfest", so Wave1 with exactly 4 ships in the whole game is your "golden age".

 

 

I can't concur with you here. on a lot of points. neither is boost/EU a game-killer, nor were phantoms/are now (I was a phantom-player then, I am one now, and IMO the "nerf" did not nerf, but people are so happy about it (as am I), that I will certainly not complain). even fat han wasn't a problem per se, just that everybody was flying either him or whisper (which for me was no game-problem, but SO boring).

 

the "meta" (don't like the term) is so diverse NOW, it is really fun playing/watching/discussing.. everything is wide open. I won't say "golden age", but it is better now then it ever was. and with fixes at the right place, it's even getting MOAR BETTERER..ERST. ;-)

 

to sum up: go out and enjoy playing xwing. instead of a fearful aversion of EU and tlts, just get a game going and have fun. you can always walk away once a guy with 6 tlt ywings with EU comes to the table and tells you it's 97 points.

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the golden age of X-wing was before boost ruined everything. TLT is a flawed solution to boost-fest,

 

 

So... Wave 1 with only X-Wing, Y-Wing, Tie Fighter and Tie Advanced then. Sure, why not.

 

and wave 2 with not_yet_fat falcons, not_yet_uber_ceptors, yes.\

 

everything went downhill when Phantoms arrived and ANNIHILATED everything but PS9+ boosters. 

Phantoms got a taste of Nerfbat then, but people got a knack of boost-fest so it went on even without brainless whispering.

 

 

sorry, but engine upgrade came with the falcon, right..? so to follow your train of thought .... since falcon = "boostfest", so Wave1 with exactly 4 ships in the whole game is your "golden age".

 

 

I can't concur with you here. on a lot of points. neither is boost/EU a game-killer, nor were phantoms/are now (I was a phantom-player then, I am one now, and IMO the "nerf" did not nerf, but people are so happy about it (as am I), that I will certainly not complain). even fat han wasn't a problem per se, just that everybody was flying either him or whisper (which for me was no game-problem, but SO boring).

 

the "meta" (don't like the term) is so diverse NOW, it is really fun playing/watching/discussing.. everything is wide open. I won't say "golden age", but it is better now then it ever was. and with fixes at the right place, it's even getting MOAR BETTERER..ERST. ;-)

 

to sum up: go out and enjoy playing xwing. instead of a fearful aversion of EU and tlts, just get a game going and have fun. you can always walk away once a guy with 6 tlt ywings with EU comes to the table and tells you it's 97 points.

 

nobody cared about boosts before the PS war started.

 

The one starting it was Whisper. He literally obliterated everything except for other PS9+ arcdodgers, and suddeny it became apparent that rebel captive deci and veteran-han were the only ways of dealing with this fiendish no-brainer. all the rest were killed by the (oh the painful memories) 

1-turn after decloak. because with 2-3 sides there was no way out.

 

and yeah, I like TLTs, 1 or 2 in a list is nice and helps a lot against arcdodgers, whom I despise.

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I'm not saying the meta is bad.   I like the fact that any list can do well, but I also acknowledge things that are over powered and under costed even in this meta.   

 

As for other using the focus, the better players would be able to make sure they don't bump and get their focus to fire the TLT anyway.     However, we would not see 4 TLT's, because once you bumped into them and they lost their action.   They would not be so easy mode.      

 

I thought the point of this game was piloting better, not throwing more dice then the other guy.    We starting to head down the GW track in some ways with this one.    Mass fire,  ever had 90 archers roll shots on you, or 80 space marines.    

 

You get the drift.    My point it it should be 8 points if you don't use a focus or 6 points if you have too.    I like the fix, but I assume alot of people have not played again this list of 4 TLT's.    when they all target lock you and focus on you, because heck they don't have to worry about losing an action even if they bump.        

 

I'm merely stating what we all know is true, and it's obvious with all the comments about it not being overpowered, when people complain something is not overpowered it always is.    Sounds like the same phantom and large ship group all over again.    They got nerfed and soon the TLT will too.   FFG will fix this or bring out something that does.    

 

P.S. - Using the paul heaver argument is insane.   Have you ever played him?   He is great with any ship.    He is an outlier in this argument and should not be used for this or any ship power argument.

Edited by eagletsi111

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the golden age of X-wing was before boost ruined everything. TLT is a flawed solution to boost-fest,

 

 

So... Wave 1 with only X-Wing, Y-Wing, Tie Fighter and Tie Advanced then. Sure, why not.

 

and wave 2 with not_yet_fat falcons, not_yet_uber_ceptors, yes.\

 

everything went downhill when Phantoms arrived and ANNIHILATED everything but PS9+ boosters. 

Phantoms got a taste of Nerfbat then, but people got a knack of boost-fest so it went on even without brainless whispering.

 

 

sorry, but engine upgrade came with the falcon, right..? so to follow your train of thought .... since falcon = "boostfest", so Wave1 with exactly 4 ships in the whole game is your "golden age".

 

 

I can't concur with you here. on a lot of points. neither is boost/EU a game-killer, nor were phantoms/are now (I was a phantom-player then, I am one now, and IMO the "nerf" did not nerf, but people are so happy about it (as am I), that I will certainly not complain). even fat han wasn't a problem per se, just that everybody was flying either him or whisper (which for me was no game-problem, but SO boring).

 

the "meta" (don't like the term) is so diverse NOW, it is really fun playing/watching/discussing.. everything is wide open. I won't say "golden age", but it is better now then it ever was. and with fixes at the right place, it's even getting MOAR BETTERER..ERST. ;-)

 

to sum up: go out and enjoy playing xwing. instead of a fearful aversion of EU and tlts, just get a game going and have fun. you can always walk away once a guy with 6 tlt ywings with EU comes to the table and tells you it's 97 points.

 

nobody cared about boosts before the PS war started.

 

The one starting it was Whisper. He literally obliterated everything except for other PS9+ arcdodgers, and suddeny it became apparent that rebel captive deci and veteran-han were the only ways of dealing with this fiendish no-brainer. all the rest were killed by the (oh the painful memories) 

1-turn after decloak. because with 2-3 sides there was no way out.

 

and yeah, I like TLTs, 1 or 2 in a list is nice and helps a lot against arcdodgers, whom I despise.

 

 

 

*sigh* I tried. ;)

let's just agree to disagree then, on oh so many points ;)

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The only thing in need of a fix is attitude.  First it was swarms, then Phantoms, then large ships, then TLTs.  It seems like any new thing that actually WORKS upsets somebody, but I (and I think most people) would prefer we aren't flooded with "Expose" and "Blaster Turret" in order to avoid that situation.

 

They are not overpowered, at all.  Period.

 

They can and are outplayed consistently.  4 TLT lists are indeed easy mode, for people who are facing them.  They share an identical weakness, and come on low PS ships with very limited mobility.  If your list cannot figure out a way to get one or two of them out of the fight every turn, or at the very least force them to split fire, then you are doing something seriously wrong.

 

If you take a very good player and give them 4 TLTs, they will do quite well right up until they meet another very good player with a list that allows him to take greater advantage of his skills.  There is a fairly low ceiling for the effectiveness of TLTs.  One TLT in a list provides consistent damage to a list that otherwise threatens in other ways.  Two starts to see diminishing returns, as your ability to push single-turn damage spikes drops dramatically.  Three and you are now vulnerable to dice, since you cannot hope to spike a single turn kill to compensate for your low average damage output.

 

My "Dangerzone" 3K tac/TLT list this year, like my lists every year, was a gimmick.  I like running gimmick lists, and I am successful with them, but I have no illusions that they are the "best" lists I can run.  The "better" version of that list, that I chose not to fly because I like being "the guy with the strange list", was Miranda (TLT, Tactician), Gold (TLT, R3A2), and Poe (R5P9, Autothrusters).  That list would have provided more consistent control over all range bands, better defense against opposing turrets, potential for major damage spikes if someone chose to dive close, more damage output in front arcs, and a second regenerating ship.

But no, TLT x 3 is easy mode?  I'm sorry, but it is not.  I realize you are frustrated, but IMO they are worth about 5.5 points as is.  7 points and they would be nothing more than a niche choice on ships particularly suited for them, and 8 points would see them gathering dust beside Blaster Turrets.  A required focus spend would have made them worth somewhere around 2 or 3 points, at best.

They are just fine.  The meta is in great shape.  Learn to recognize a good thing when you see it.

Edited by KineticOperator

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Personally, I love the romaticization of the Wave 2 meta. No one seems to remember about the summer of the double Falcons. Sure, no one was complaining about boost. Know why? Because Large ship Barrel Roll was a LOT crazier. And the TIE Swarm wasn't a big factor, because you were pretty much knocked out of contention if you faced another TIE Swarm. 

 

And calling the TLT as creating lazy play is a stupid argument. Pretty much every gatekeeper will be called "easy mode". When, if you actually watch the **** games, you realize it is not. 

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The only thing in need of a fix is attitude.  First it was swarms, then Phantoms, then large ships, then TLTs.  It seems like any new thing that actually WORKS upsets somebody, but I (and I think most people) would prefer we aren't flooded with "Expose" and "Blaster Turret" in order to avoid that situation.

 

They are not overpowered, at all.  Period.

 

They can and are outplayed consistently.  4 TLT lists are indeed easy mode, for people who are facing them.  They share an identical weakness, and come on low PS ships with very limited mobility.  If your list cannot figure out a way to get one or two of them out of the fight every turn, or at the very least force them to split fire, then you are doing something seriously wrong.

 

If you take a very good player and give them 4 TLTs, they will do quite well right up until they meet another very good player with a list that allows him to take greater advantage of his skills.  There is a fairly low ceiling for the effectiveness of TLTs.  One provides consistent damage to a list that otherwise threatens in other ways.  Two starts to see diminishing returns, as your ability to push single-turn damage spikes drops dramatically.  Three and you are now vulnerable to dice, since you cannot hope to spike a single turn kill to compensate for your low average damage output.

 

My "Dangerzone" 3K tac/tlt list this year, like my lists every year, was a gimmick.  I like running gimmick lists, and I am successful with them, but I have no illusions that they are the "best" lists I can run.  The "better" version of that list, that I chose not to fly because I like being "the guy with the strange list", was Miranda (TLT, Tactician), Gold (TLT, R3A2), and Poe (R5P9, Autothrusters).  That list would have provided more consistent control over all range bands, better defense against opposing turrets, potential for major damage spikes if someone chose to dive close, more damage output in front arcs, and a second regenerating ship.

But no, TLT x 3 is easy mode?  I'm sorry, but it is not.  I realize you are frustrated, but IMO they are worth about 5.5 points as is.  7 points and they would be nothing more than a niche choice on ships particularly suited for them, and 8 points would see them gathering dust beside Blaster Turrets.  A required focus spend would have made them worth somewhere around 2 or 3 points, at best.

They are just fine.  The meta is in great shape.  Learn to recognize a good thing when you see it.

 

well spoken, though I'm afraid it will fall to many deaf ears. "absolutes", black and white.. they just -know- things for the certain truths and instead of questioning their newfound knowledge they do their best to ignore that of others. because, let's face it.. people with another opions just. can't. be. right. *sigh* 

and sorry for me sounding whiny ;)

 

congratulations on your 3K list, btw. fun fact: the day I got my two ugly ducklings (2k^^) from my local shop, I built the -exact- same list (proxed the 3rd) I couldn#t get myself to buy a third, though. that and I really have no talent to fly these things. at least not like you did. was a joy to watch (would have liked to watch some more!). 

on a personal note, because of quirky lists and stuff: please. do. not. kill. the. 3rd. k. (or the 2nd or 1st for that matter).

the stressbot might well be the better option, but ask yourself: is it worth killing style for efficiency? ;-D 

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