Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
R2-EQ

Problem of Squadrons and Theme

Recommended Posts

Featured-Y-Wing-Image-1038x576.jpg

 

"I think there is a slight problem with squadrons in Armada, and for me it’s mostly a problem of theme. Game mechanics have trumped fluff. Where are the heroes talking over comms to other pilots setting up attack runs? No one is saying “cut the chatter Red Two” because everyone is too busy waiting for orders from capital ships. Why do Imperials have to take mercenaries in their fleets if they want a squadron to move and attack? No TIEs have Rouge? Is that because Boba Fett is a better star pilot than Darth Vader?"

 

Rest here:

 

http://dockingbay416.com/ideas-to-fix-the-squadron-problem-in-star-wars-armada/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before anyone comments, I'd strongly encourage you to read the post linked by the OP. When I first read the title and OP, I was inclined to think that the discussion was about broken game mechanics (which seemed ironic timing to me, given the results at world's yesterday). That's not what this is about. You may still not agree after reading the full post, but at least we'll all be on-topic. ;)

 

For myself, after reading the post, I've done a 180. I still think squadrons aren't broken, and there's lots of exciting things ahead for them.

 

But dang it, I WANT THAT VADER!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had to stop reading about halfway through because you had way too many pictures trying to explain a point that was not needed.

 

Sounds harsh but I am sorry, Squadrons are about skill of use. Rogue is limited to what it is on because it is a STRONG keyword. It takes some of the skill out of the game is all unique squadrons have it. At that point why would I EVER take anything but Unique squadrons? What point is there for normal squadrons. 

 

If all unique squadrons could become Rogue then the balance created for units like Nym, Keyan, and the like is broken. 

 

Now your argument that "Wedge" does not need orders for him to shoot anyone is true but if he is in a combat situation with things going on around him and he was given a mission it is HIGHLY likely he will follow that mission. When the orders come in for him to change that mission he does so. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just more people wildly overestimating the Rogue keyword.

It's not as good as you think it is, and the fact that you refer to Squadrons as a "Wasted command" demonstrates that.

Command activated squadrons will still mop the floor with rogues in the ship phase long before they activate, if a keen player is so inclined.

Rogue is NOT a replacement for the squadron command by any stretch of the imagination, it's intended for one-off ships running on the edges of your fleet to contribute, and you pay a LOT more than 2 points for the ability.

And really, all this "it's not thematic" business is just being willfully obtuse.

No, it's not at ALL a stretch to believe that even an ace fighter pilot (commanding a squadron, NOT just flying his own ship) would need support from a capital ship (Not just commands, but sensor data) to both position himself AND make a meaningful attack run.

Guh... I'm just SO tired of this.

Squadrons are fine, and this game is ultimately ABOUT capital ships.

If you really are itching that bad to see Wedge pull some thrilling heroics, you know X-Wing exists, yes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually had command activated TIE's with howlrunner destroy my YT-2400's. Sure I got to more and attack with the one time but then the next turns squadron command just piled on enough damage to kill them. 

 

Just more people wildly overestimating the Rogue keyword.

It's not as good as you think it is, and the fact that you refer to Squadrons as a "Wasted command" demonstrates that.

Command activated squadrons will still mop the floor with rogues in the ship phase long before they activate, if a keen player is so inclined.

Rogue is NOT a replacement for the squadron command by any stretch of the imagination, it's intended for one-off ships running on the edges of your fleet to contribute, and you pay a LOT more than 2 points for the ability.

And really, all this "it's not thematic" business is just being willfully obtuse.

No, it's not at ALL a stretch to believe that even an ace fighter pilot (commanding a squadron, NOT just flying his own ship) would need support from a capital ship (Not just commands, but sensor data) to both position himself AND make a meaningful attack run.

Guh... I'm just SO tired of this.

Squadrons are fine, and this game is ultimately ABOUT capital ships.


If you really are itching that bad to see Wedge pull some thrilling heroics, you know X-Wing exists, yes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really, Armada is Star Destroyer the game. It's in everything from the upgrade iconography to the Imperial being the most expensive and terrifying piece in the game. If Fighters are being flashier than capital ships, then you're not achieving what Armada set out to be.

 

Armada is like all the pulled-back shots where fighters are dots next to the grand capital ships doing their thing.

Edited by Norsehound

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the squadron upgrade cards are also interesting but as someone pointed out, if card-equipped aces end up being superior to the generics, I think this could snowball and push generics out of play. List-builders will be more interested in kitting out four effective squadrons activated out of a high-FTR command ship than taking two carriers' worth of fighters to swarm an opponent.

 

Aces are enough as it is I think.

 

Even so, I think someday in the distant future we may see those kinds of upgrade cards. Modifications in X-Wing were kind of born out of a similar need to buff older fighters with flashy new upgrades. If it's needed, fighters will get upgrade cards as described.

 

I guess it depends on what comes in Wave 3? Then we'll have a better idea how soon fighters are going to need patching. So far I haven't seen anyone saying Wave 1 fighters are now obsolete and need patching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to see squadron upgrades. Right now squadrons are fine but you are correct that a hero grabbing two wing men and flying off to save the day would be very thematic. If they could find a way to make it happen without breaking the game I would be all for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to see squadron upgrades. Right now squadrons are fine but you are correct that a hero grabbing two wing men and flying off to save the day would be very thematic. If they could find a way to make it happen without breaking the game I would be all for it.

 

 

But that ignores the scale that is there...

"Luke Skywalker" as a Card does not represent just Luke...  It represents Luke and the rest of the X-Wing Squadron with him.

He's already got his Wingmen, thats what allows him to run as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I would like to see squadron upgrades. Right now squadrons are fine but you are correct that a hero grabbing two wing men and flying off to save the day would be very thematic. If they could find a way to make it happen without breaking the game I would be all for it.

 

 

But that ignores the scale that is there...

"Luke Skywalker" as a Card does not represent just Luke...  It represents Luke and the rest of the X-Wing Squadron with him.

He's already got his Wingmen, thats what allows him to run as it is.

 

 

What about Garven telling squads what to do at Yavin? Or Lando telling Ackbar what to do at Endor.?

 

As I mentioned in the article, just some ideas I had to inject fluffy options to give players ways to customize their force. Don't want mercenaries but want Rogue? No problem. Want Wedge to be Red Leader and a mini command ship? Ok, pay the points.

 

I hope you guys enjoyed the article. I wanted to write something entertaining and get people thinking outside the box.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did really enjoy the article.  My response above was specifically about the statement of that post.

 

 

For myself, my own feedback - I'd love to see Squadron Upgrades, but I'd prefer those Squadrons to then do something Different rather than just doing something Better.  The important factor is to always have a reason to have the Generic squadrons - and the reason should be more than just its Cheaper.

 

Exactly what that would entail?  I don't know...  

 

Really, personally, I guess the only thing I'd want at the moment is a "Form on my Wing", which allows a Generic Squadron to be removed from the table, but adding 1/2 of its hull value to a friendly like Squadron within range 1...

 

Representing, of course, that the Squadron disbands, and some - if not most - of the Squadron forms up on the wing of the other, replacing losses, but some heavily damaged craft head back to base.

How would you do that?  Alternate to Squadron Command?  Disposable Upgrade Card?  I don't know...

I think there are room for upgrades.  But strictly, at this point, they are certainly not neccessary.  The game is already going to leap ahead with Grit, Rogue and Intel in the next couple of months, and the inherent points of some of those abilities will neccessitate game changing.

 

X-Wings, I feel, will get a bit of a bonus, since they have enough Anti-Squadron dice to be able to kill Enemies in one or two activations - since with Intel, the enemy might just fly away - the ability to do mass damage at once is something we'll look back at.

 

 

And we must keep in mind that Squadrons are a bonus to the Ship Game.  We can't let ourselves be bogged down in Squadron Minutae, and if that means we need to keep them fairly abstract and generic, then that's a sacrifice I'll make for the game.

Edited by Drasnighta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was very skeptical about this post. I think we've all seen too many people talk down squadrons.

However, by the end of the article it linked to I was actually won over both to the thematic argument of more heroic heroes and to the basic idea of purchasable upgrades for unique squadrons.

That doesn't mean I think squadrons don't currently work.

It doesn't mean I don't know FFG have improvements planned for them in wave 2 and believe even more may be planned in wave 3.

It does mean that I think that R2-EQ posted a compelling, detailed and well thought out argument regarding squadrons and theme, and some constructive ideas.

I hadn't expected to agree with him but I do. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the article, it was very entertaining. I too think that squadron upgrade cards would be neat, but like previous posters I think it'd be more interesting to have them add something different to the game, not just add Rogue.

From a fluff perspective, you could say that the Death Star and the Rebel Base on Yavin were issuing squadron commands the whole time. "Squad leaders, we've picked up a new group of signals. Enemy fighters coming your way.";)

Edited by Maturin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I would like to see squadron upgrades. Right now squadrons are fine but you are correct that a hero grabbing two wing men and flying off to save the day would be very thematic. If they could find a way to make it happen without breaking the game I would be all for it.

 

 

But that ignores the scale that is there...

"Luke Skywalker" as a Card does not represent just Luke...  It represents Luke and the rest of the X-Wing Squadron with him.

He's already got his Wingmen, thats what allows him to run as it is.

 

 

What about Garven telling squads what to do at Yavin? Or Lando telling Ackbar what to do at Endor.?

 

As I mentioned in the article, just some ideas I had to inject fluffy options to give players ways to customize their force. Don't want mercenaries but want Rogue? No problem. Want Wedge to be Red Leader and a mini command ship? Ok, pay the points.

 

I hope you guys enjoyed the article. I wanted to write something entertaining and get people thinking outside the box.

 

So 2 separate instances of extreme dire consequences occur and it should always happen?

 

Both Instances had IMMENSE consequences on the outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really, Armada is Star Destroyer the game. It's in everything from the upgrade iconography to the Imperial being the most expensive and terrifying piece in the game. If Fighters are being flashier than capital ships, then you're not achieving what Armada set out to be.

 

Armada is like all the pulled-back shots where fighters are dots next to the grand capital ships doing their thing.

 

 

I hate to be that guy, but as I've noted before only TWO of those shots existed in the entire original trilogy (the opening scene in Star Wars and a brief fight between a Nebulon-B and a Star Destroyer as fighters flew betwwen).  We didn't see more outside of video games until Revenge of the Sith and the Clone Wars cartoons.

 

The A-Wings from yesterdays Worlds event are a prime example of how powerful fighters can be in the ship phase, but they still feel tacked on in the squadron phase unless they have the Rogue keyword.  There's nothing wrong about trying to fix that.  Fighters should be a relevant threat for every phase of the game, not just the ones where ships are focusing on them to the detriment of all other functions.  Fighters can have limited autonomy and still require capital ships to really win the dedicated fighter war.  Capital ship activation makes fighters extremely powerful and gives them a massive edge in activation order over other squadrons in the Squadron phase.

 

You know what I'd do?  I'd simply change the squadron rules to say that ace pilots get a squadron command token at the start of each round which they may use to activate any friendly squadron at Distance 1, including themselves.  This would make squadron leaders like Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Wedge, Tycho, Howlrunner etc. able to function a bit better than regular pilots and make them a useful addition to the command structure itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Really, Armada is Star Destroyer the game. It's in everything from the upgrade iconography to the Imperial being the most expensive and terrifying piece in the game. If Fighters are being flashier than capital ships, then you're not achieving what Armada set out to be.

 

Armada is like all the pulled-back shots where fighters are dots next to the grand capital ships doing their thing.

 

 

I hate to be that guy, but as I've noted before only TWO of those shots existed in the entire original trilogy (the opening scene in Star Wars and a brief fight between a Nebulon-B and a Star Destroyer as fighters flew betwwen).  We didn't see more outside of video games until Revenge of the Sith and the Clone Wars cartoons.

 

The A-Wings from yesterdays Worlds event are a prime example of how powerful fighters can be in the ship phase, but they still feel tacked on in the squadron phase unless they have the Rogue keyword.  There's nothing wrong about trying to fix that.  Fighters should be a relevant threat for every phase of the game, not just the ones where ships are focusing on them to the detriment of all other functions.  Fighters can have limited autonomy and still require capital ships to really win the dedicated fighter war.  Capital ship activation makes fighters extremely powerful and gives them a massive edge in activation order over other squadrons in the Squadron phase.

 

You know what I'd do?  I'd simply change the squadron rules to say that ace pilots get a squadron command token at the start of each round which they may use to activate any friendly squadron at Distance 1, including themselves.  This would make squadron leaders like Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Wedge, Tycho, Howlrunner etc. able to function a bit better than regular pilots and make them a useful addition to the command structure itself.

 

Money issues? You think they are going to catalog an entire war for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually stay far away from these broken theme discussions. Rationally i could come up with alot of reasons why the theme is broken or doesnt work that well.

 

In actual gameplay though the game's theme works so insanely well. It's much like the discussion we had months ago about the size, some people had serious problems with the wrong scale. Some of them came around when they actually played the game. The game works. It's insane fun, you dont need alot of imagination to see everything burn and go wrong... to see ships go down in flames etc., the unique movement that works SO well. The theme is insanely strong with armada and i can remember so many games that i played that i don't when i compare it to other games.

 

Having said that: This game doesn't have a problem with theme nomatter how much you rationalize it

 

There's alot of stuff that could be cool like the hangar mechanic that others suggested, squadron upgrades etc. etc. etc., but in the end we dont even know yet what Wave 2 does to the game and there we have the actual cardstats, we know everything about this wave and we can't predict what happens with the game except that it gains even more (good) complexity. My point is, it's easy to suggest stuff and to think, wow this HAS to work, it would be SO cool... but wether it really would and wether it would be really bringing the game forward or just adding a layer that you personally want is written somewhere else. In the end, and i hate to say this because it's a super feelybreezy thing to say... it comes down to wether you can feel the game or not, and i can everytime.

 

The fact that we still don't have one super OP list that we don't need major balancing changes speaks volume about this game's design and balance. The latter is an extremely fragile thing and i don't want it to be disturbed. We have a saying in Product Design... Form follows Function, meaning something along the lines of you first make sure something works, then you make it pretty. I would sacrifice theme everyday if it means the game itself stays intact. The fact that we have BOTH in this game is mindblowing to me from a game design perspective. But i'm not the guy for such discussions anyway, i stick to what ffg puts out, they definitely earned my trust.

Edited by Lancezh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Really, Armada is Star Destroyer the game. It's in everything from the upgrade iconography to the Imperial being the most expensive and terrifying piece in the game. If Fighters are being flashier than capital ships, then you're not achieving what Armada set out to be.

 

Armada is like all the pulled-back shots where fighters are dots next to the grand capital ships doing their thing.

 

 

I hate to be that guy, but as I've noted before only TWO of those shots existed in the entire original trilogy (the opening scene in Star Wars and a brief fight between a Nebulon-B and a Star Destroyer as fighters flew betwwen).  We didn't see more outside of video games until Revenge of the Sith and the Clone Wars cartoons.

 

The A-Wings from yesterdays Worlds event are a prime example of how powerful fighters can be in the ship phase, but they still feel tacked on in the squadron phase unless they have the Rogue keyword.  There's nothing wrong about trying to fix that.  Fighters should be a relevant threat for every phase of the game, not just the ones where ships are focusing on them to the detriment of all other functions.  Fighters can have limited autonomy and still require capital ships to really win the dedicated fighter war.  Capital ship activation makes fighters extremely powerful and gives them a massive edge in activation order over other squadrons in the Squadron phase.

 

You know what I'd do?  I'd simply change the squadron rules to say that ace pilots get a squadron command token at the start of each round which they may use to activate any friendly squadron at Distance 1, including themselves.  This would make squadron leaders like Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Wedge, Tycho, Howlrunner etc. able to function a bit better than regular pilots and make them a useful addition to the command structure itself.

 

Money issues? You think they are going to catalog an entire war for you?

 

 

I'm sorry, I don't know if you meant to respond to someone else or if something got messed up on the post, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As many have said, Squad upgrades are inevitable. It's simply when and how they implement them, provided the game lasts long enough to expand. Looking at XWTMG, that shouldn't be an issue. Otherwise, I think mechanically that squadrons are nearly perfect. You want to feel like they're more effective, but...why? You aren't flying them. You're telling them to go to X and shoot at Y, or they have standing orders to get to X or make sure Y is shot if they see it. It all works when you remember that your place is the bridge, not a cockpit. Even the movement works like that - you tell them to go somewhere, look away, look back, and they're there. You don't care how as long as they get to that point X.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted this on the subreddit, I'm going to repost it here.

 

My complaint has never been about the power of squadrons with capital ship commands, but it's very fair to say that without constant Ship support most squadrons feel very ineffective if they don't have the Rogue keyword.

Two good examples are the TIE Interceptor and the Y-Wing Bomber, a pair of squadrons whose job descriptions are right there in the title. Interceptors are supposed to intercept enemy fighters. Y-Wings are supposed to bomb enemy ships. Without constant ship commands, however, they can't perform their jobs in any meaningful way. The jobs these fighters were explicitly designed to perform.

Now I'm not against the idea of ship support being critical for maximum squadron performance. Ships activating squadrons give them tremendous offensive capability against both ships and squadrons, and causes them to activate in advance of other ships and squadrons. But when a squadron command is not issued, squadrons are essentially almost absent from the game unless an opponent makes a tremendous mistake in positioning their own ships or squadrons.

It's already frustrating to have a ship out of position doing nothing and doubly so when it is under attack. When you have a squadron in position unable to take any action at all because your ship made a different decision 3 turns ago, it is extremely frustrating to see those points sitting helpless on the table or even worse being damaged or destroyed without the ability to fight back. It feels as though the game punishes players for bringing fighters and doing anything other than issue squadron commands all game. And at that point, why have the dial at all?

This is not thematic, it's not intuitive, and it's not fun for those looking to actually have combined arms forces or ships that have to make real decisions. If the presence of Squadrons simply makes the remainder of the game "Carrier Operations: The Home Game" then it needs to stop pretending to be Star Wars. I can directly order fighters around all day in X-Wing, I'm playing Armada because I wanted a more holistic game covering all parts of Star Wars space combat.

 

TL;DR The game mechanics of Squadrons makes ships subservient to squadron needs in a game that's thematically focused around the ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...