Ghost, Phantom Titles and TLT

[RogueSeventeen 71]

Pretty sure you guys are doing order of operations completely wrong. Gunner is nested within cluster missiles, which is why the second attack is cancelled. TLT is nested within the phantom title card the same way, which is why the second attack is NOT cancelled.

[AlexW 2,902]

Pretty sure you guys are doing order of operations completely wrong. Gunner is nested within cluster missiles, which is why the second attack is cancelled. TLT is nested within the phantom title card the same way, which is why the second attack is NOT cancelled.

The FAQ makes it explicit that TLT is treated as two separate attacks except for skipping the declare target step. It's why tactician works twice, and we also now have the Valen Rudor ruling that also interrupts TLT. The point is that TLT attacks can trigger other cards between attacks already so there's really no good reason to say the phantom title shouldn't trigger. There is currently no rule about nested or imbedded attacks, though I think they could flesh it out more.

That's not to say we won't see the title card override those other exceptions, but until we do, those are the best examples we have to go on.

Edited March 26, 2016 by AlexW

[joliversc 23]

What is this 'Special Forces Tie' that is mentioned in the thread.

[treybert 893]

Speculation

 

 

2 seater with a turret-ish

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

What is this 'Special Forces Tie' that is mentioned in the thread.

The ship that Finn and Poe escape in.  It's not a normal TIE f/o.

[Parravon 5,217]

The TIE/sf Fighter. Two seater with missiles and a rear facing gun on a swivel mount making it a turret. It's likely to show up as a missile carrying TIE with an Auxiliary arc. We might see it in a future wave. Who knows?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/sf_space_superiority_fighter

Edited March 26, 2016 by Parravon

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

The TIE/sf Fighter. Two seater with missiles and a rear facing gun on a swivel mount making it a turret. It's likely to show up as a missile carrying TIE with an Auxiliary arc. We might see it in a future wave. Who knows?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/sf_space_superiority_fighter

I'm guessing an Aux Arc on a small ship, which we've been wanting for a while.

Side Panels get a bit in the way of the true Turret ability, you know

 

Although, that's an interesting potential pilot ability: Shoot outside of your arcs, but you first have to confirm you don't hit yourself, and any shots that hit YOU are damage that your opponent doesn't have to dodge.

 

Could be a fun mechanic.

If Scum Uglies show up, it should definitely be available there.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

The TIE/sf Fighter. Two seater with missiles and a rear facing gun on a swivel mount making it a turret. It's likely to show up as a missile carrying TIE with an Auxiliary arc. We might see it in a future wave. Who knows?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/sf_space_superiority_fighter

I'm guessing an Aux Arc on a small ship, which we've been wanting for a while.

Side Panels get a bit in the way of the true Turret ability, you know

 

Although, that's an interesting potential pilot ability: Shoot outside of your arcs, but you first have to confirm you don't hit yourself, and any shots that hit YOU are damage that your opponent doesn't have to dodge.

 

Could be a fun mechanic.

If Scum Uglies show up, it should definitely be available there.

 

Yeah, I was thinking Auxiliary only. Maybe with a turret upgrade that can only fire in the primary or auxiliary arcs only. It would be hard to justify a full 360 degree capability when you take the side panels and the rear gunner's placement into account. But then, that's fluff, and when has that ever counted?

[Sentinal 150]

Considering the turret is located directly on where the stand peg is suppose to go, it is highly unlikely we are going to see a TIE/sf any time soon in X-wing. Until they redesign the stand peg and base that is.

[Parravon 5,217]

Considering the turret is located directly on where the stand peg is suppose to go, it is highly unlikely we are going to see a TIE/sf any time soon in X-wing. Until they redesign the stand peg and base that is.

If FFG want the ship in the game, they'll make it happen.

[Off Jenkins 23]

back to the main topic, FYI theres also a discussion about that tlt at the end of the round at some others places and i mean some FB groups of diffrent nations. One we've got also at Polish community group

IMHO surely u can fire TLT at the end of a round twice. U give an example with tactician, that TLT is two diffrent attacks, but I think that's the wrong way to interpret that. Phantom title says that u may perform turret attack, which is the point here. If u decide to perform an attack with turret u doing all of that follows header 'attack', which is attack twice. Next sentence, about after that, u cannot attack is about preventing using gunner to have additional, fifth attack this round. 

Among thinking about two seprate attacks of tlt u should think in first about performing full turret attack, which is in that case shooting twice

Edited March 27, 2016 by Off Jenkins

[WWHSD 9,273]

Considering the turret is located directly on where the stand peg is suppose to go, it is highly unlikely we are going to see a TIE/sf any time soon in X-wing. Until they redesign the stand peg and base that is.

If FFG want the ship in the game, they'll make it happen.

They could always just use the B-Wing peg design.

[AlexW 2,902]

back to the main topic, FYI theres also a discussion about that tlt at the end of the round at some others places and i mean some FB groups of diffrent nations. One we've got also at Polish community group

IMHO surely u can fire TLT at the end of a round twice. U give an example with tactician, that TLT is two diffrent attacks, but I think that's the wrong way to interpret that. Phantom title says that u may perform turret attack, which is the point here. If u decide to perform an attack with turret u doing all of that follows header 'attack', which is attack twice. Next sentence, about after that, u cannot attack is about preventing using gunner to have additional, fifth attack this round. 

Among thinking about two seprate attacks of tlt u should think in first about performing full turret attack, which is in that case shooting twice

If there were separate rules for imbedded attacks or "full turret attacks" like TLT and Cluster Missiles, you'd be onto something but there isn't and we have rules that interact with it because it is two separate attacks (Tactician, FCS, Rudor).

[Off Jenkins 23]

but keep in mind, rules for secondary weapons, that is do everything after header 'attack'. If u may make a turret attack, like it is in phantom title, u have to do everything after header 'attack:' which is two separate attack, eating bananas, whatever. Title gives you opportunity to do an attack with a turret, after you do that u can't attack and that's it. When you performing attack with turret which is TLT u're doing two attack, am I wrong? So why u saying in that case u doing just a half of it?

Two separate is obvious but here it doesn't matter, the point is and diffrence between title and gunner, that if u use gunner after first attack u cant to do another, shooting with TLT, because it's another attack. Title says, that after performing attack with a turret u can't attack again, so combining tlt and gunner on ghost prevent to use gunner after last attack, because here it's again an attack, diffrent then that you perform with TLT.

You should focus on wording of a title itself instead of TLT's in that case.

[GrimmyV 7,421]

Considering the turret is located directly on where the stand peg is suppose to go, it is highly unlikely we are going to see a TIE/sf any time soon in X-wing. Until they redesign the stand peg and base that is.

If FFG want the ship in the game, they'll make it happen.

They could always just use the B-Wing peg design.

Or just make it a title and reprint the TIE/fo tokens with auxiliary arcs and include all that in the First Order Aces pack.

[AlexW 2,902]

but keep in mind, rules for secondary weapons, that is do everything after header 'attack'. If u may make a turret attack, like it is in phantom title, u have to do everything after header 'attack:' which is two separate attack, eating bananas, whatever. Title gives you opportunity to do an attack with a turret, after you do that u can't attack and that's it. When you performing attack with turret which is TLT u're doing two attack, am I wrong? So why u saying in that case u doing just a half of it?

Two separate is obvious but here it doesn't matter, the point is and diffrence between title and gunner, that if u use gunner after first attack u cant to do another, shooting with TLT, because it's another attack. Title says, that after performing attack with a turret u can't attack again, so combining tlt and gunner on ghost prevent to use gunner after last attack, because here it's again an attack, diffrent then that you perform with TLT.

You should focus on wording of a title itself instead of TLT's in that case.

Ignoring the clarification for the card itself when it applies and is being used is odd. We have some rules that clearly show them as separate attacks. The Phantom title should not be an exception unless it specifically says it is. If they wanted prevent use of just gunner to apply to the phantom title, they could have said that instead of " attack." They could have altered the wording for the FAQ in TLT. They haven't. The only way to argue for both TLT attacks is to argue intent which is very hard to back up with current rules and the way they've ruled other cards' interaction with it. I wouldn't be surprised if they alter it in another FAQ but for now I don't think there's really a rules precedent to stand on for TLT to have its cake and eat it, too;) Edited March 27, 2016 by AlexW

[Off Jenkins 23]

okey, i get to the magic 'an' in phantom title descriptions which stands for a single attack. If it goes that way, I totally agree with single TLT shot at the end of combat phase, but I didn't find that so obvious, so maybe adding in description of phantom 'single' make it totally clear.

thanks

[Wisconsen 156]

The real question is if the TLT acts as a Nestled Action or not. There is precedent for this to function both ways. Examples would be Push the Limit and Experimental interface interactions, and Gunner and vader Interactions. Until such a time as FFG clairifies it in the FAQ (not an email an FAQ) It will be up to the players in the game (for casual play) or the TO (for organized play) to make that clarification. As a Player your best bet is to ask your opponent or the TO before the game/event starts and make sure you are on the same page as to how it functions. This will prevent drama, confusion, and bad feels all around.

 

As for the Nestled Action, let me expand upon that a little so It is easier to understand.

 

PTL -> Exp. Interface works as follows to my understanding (it's Easter, and i'm on mobile without my rules reference in front of me just a FYI)

 

Ship takes an Action

- PTL Triggers off that action

-- Exp. Interface Triggers off the PTL action

-- Exp. Interface Stress is added

- PTL Stress is added

End of Sequence,

 

This works becuase Exp. Interface interrupts the PTL card by triggering off the PTL action. Because it interrupts we resolve it before we finish resolving the PTL. This also works in the exact same way in reverse (becuase they have the same trigger "After you take an action" so you can PTL -> Exp. Interface, or Exp. Interface -> PTL. 

 

This is also the same reason Gunner stops the 2nd TLT or Cluster Missle attack when you use it after the first, but not when you use it after the second. 

 

Ship Attacks

- Uses TLT/CM to attack

-- First attack

--- Activate Gunner

---- Resolve Gunner

-- Back to the TLT

- Second Attack is Prevent by Gunner.

End of Sequence

 

Here is the important part regarding the Ghost/Phantom and TLT. The tittle gives you one attack with a equipped turret. This happens before the resolution of the Title. So if it is a Nestled action it looks like this.

 

Title Triggers

- Take one Attack with a equipped Turret

-- Choose TLT as the equipped Turret

--- Attack : Make Two Attacks

---- Make and Resolve First attack

----- Make and Resolve Second attack

--- Attack granted by Title is now Resolved

-- Finish Resolution of Title

- Cannot make any more attacks this round

End of Sequence.

 

However, FFG has in the past made things that are nestled actions, NOT resolve that way for the purpose of game balance, design intent, or becuase they forgot sugar in their coffee that morning (meaning they don't need to justify a reason, though they normally do.)

 

An Example of this is the Vader and Gunner FAQ where it is explicitly NOT a nestled action. This is not because the Rules say it isn't, it's becuase FFG has decided it was against the spirit of the rules and balanced play.

 

I am not arguing for either way from a balance, intent, or design perspective. That is FFG's territory and prerogative. I do think that with the current rules and FAQ, it is a nestled action. However, if i wanted to run it in a list, i would make sure the TO (or my opponent for casual play), and I are on the same page before i decide on a list, because until FFG makes it crystal clear in a FAQ. It can go either way, no matter how i personally think the rules apply to it.

 

 

..... that was much longer then i thought it would be. Happy Easter everyone =)

[McLaine 58]

Just my informed opinion.

1) As far as tactician is concerned, an arc is an Arc. It doesn't matter if it's primary, auxiliary, or the new 'special' arc on the VCX-100.

2) TLT (and Cluster missiles) give two completely seperate attacks. This allows TLT to generate 2 stress against a target 'in arc at range 2'.

3) Phantom title lets you make a single attack at the end of the round, and you are then forbidden from making another attack that turn. This means a TLT would only get one of it's attacks at the end of the round. (This has already been confirmed via a rules query. Of course, it may change before it gets into the FAQ, but I highly doubt it.)

So, a TLT and Tactician on a VCX-100 with Ghost/Phantom combo can generate 3 stress maximum per round.

[RogueSeventeen 71]

Just my informed opinion.

1) As far as tactician is concerned, an arc is an Arc. It doesn't matter if it's primary, auxiliary, or the new 'special' arc on the VCX-100.

2) TLT (and Cluster missiles) give two completely seperate attacks. This allows TLT to generate 2 stress against a target 'in arc at range 2'.

3) Phantom title lets you make a single attack at the end of the round, and you are then forbidden from making another attack that turn. This means a TLT would only get one of it's attacks at the end of the round. (This has already been confirmed via a rules query. Of course, it may change before it gets into the FAQ, but I highly doubt it.)

So, a TLT and Tactician on a VCX-100 with Ghost/Phantom combo can generate 3 stress maximum per round.

 

Can you share the answer to this rules query?

[dotswarlock 2,424]

I quickly scanned through the thread; has a consensus or rules ruling been established concerning the bonus attack provided by the phantom/ghost and TLT?  Is it 1 or 2 attacks from the TLT?

 

If a consensus has not been reached, has someone posted a question to FFG?  If not, I will.

 

Thank you.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Consensus is just one attack from the TLT/title interaction, but you might want to send the Q to FFG anyway as it could use FAQing.

[dotswarlock 2,424]

Consensus is just one attack from the TLT/title interaction, but you might want to send the Q to FFG anyway as it could use FAQing.

 

Thanks, will do!

[Obsidian Leader 17]

They could have avoided some of the confusion by splitting the text up between the two upgrade cards, and replacing special arc with auxiliary arc. I am guessing they used the word "special" because without the titles and the shuttle it doesn’t function as a stand-alone auxiliary arc like the Firespray or YV.

 

The rear-arc-naming, torp icon and wording regarding the turret makes very little sense and is a bit confusing. It shouldn’t take 3 page forum posts like this to discover how their cards and ships work after they publish a rules pamphlet with the release. At least they try to get ahead of this stuff and release FAQ's prior or along with the releases. 

[TerTer 74]

So any official response on this? As i see the point of being 1 TLT shot, but also see a point of being 2 TLT shots.