Ghost, Phantom Titles and TLT

[gamblertuba 5,647]

I was discussing the filthiness of a TLTactician Ghost in another thread and got some surprising responses about the Ghost and Phantom titles. 

 

My contention is that a TLT equipped Ghost with tactician and docked phantom with both titles could drop 4 stress per turn on any target (or 2 different targets) inside its arc at range 2.

 

Ghost Title

While you are docked, the Ghost can perform primary weapon attacks from its special firing arc, and, at the end of the Combat phase, it may perform an additional attack with an equipped . If it performs this attack, it cannot attack again this round.

 

 

The question is (apparently) whether the title can allow an additional TLT attack at the end of the round.

[Pandademic 425]

It seems to me that the title wouldn't allow the TLT's second attack. TLT would fire normally during the combat phase, then at the end of the phase, TLT could fire once, and the title's restriction would kick in and prevent the second attack.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Yeah you could use the TLT, and then use the TLT's first attack again with the title.

 

But like Gunner, you cannot perform another attack afterwards. And for everything except choosing a weapon and declaring a target, the TLT is TWO attacks. Meaning with gunner and the title, you would lose the second attack from it.

 

It's the same logic that lets you get 2 stress from Tactician when using TLT, it's TWO attacks. Anything that prevents attacking after a certain attack would stop its second one.

Edited November 6, 2015 by InterceptorMad

[WWHSD 9,273]

I'm not seeing how you'd deal more than two stress with Tactician a round with the Ghost with a docked Phantom.

 

Your normal attack has to be with the primary weapon out of what is probably the rear arc of the ship. The second attack would be from the turret. The wording of the title would lead me to believe that if you had a TLT you'd only get the first attack from it.  Additionally, until we have further information about the Ghost we don't even know how the "special firing arc" will work. It may not even count as being an arc for any attacks other then the one granted by the Ghost title. It's probably not just an Auxiliary Arc like the Firespray and YV-666 have or it would be referred to as such by the title card.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Technically, the Phantom title doesn't say that the first attack has to be primary.

 

It says that you can fire a primary in that way only when the Phantom is docked.

 

It also says that if you have it docked, you can fire an equipped turret weapon at the end of the combat phase.

 

So rules as written, you could fire your equipped TLT in the forward arc, stress them twice, and then fire it again at the end of the combat phase, like Corran's double-tap. But as per this thread, given the rules it would stop the second TLT shot of the second time you used it, as it says 'you may not attack again this round'

[WWHSD 9,273]

Technically, the Phantom title doesn't say that the first attack has to be primary.

 

It says that you can fire a primary in that way only when the Phantom is docked.

 

It also says that if you have it docked, you can fire an equipped turret weapon at the end of the combat phase.

 

 I thought that the second attack was conditional upon using the rear attack. I read it again and it looks like you have I right.

[Tsiegtiez 1,608]

The thing I'm wondering about is the direct relationship of the Phantom title and its "attack" versus the two locations of "attack" on the TLT card. Can the two TLT dice rolls be grouped under a single attack because they follow the "Attack:" header? At the opportunity to perform an attack, does TLT then jump in and turn it into two?

I understand why the Phantom title might exclude the second TLT attack but I also feel that reading works against the intent of both cards.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

The FAQ clarified that the TLT is two attacks, you just skip the weapon choice and declare target steps.

 

If it counted as one attack for this title, it would mean Tactician wouldn't work with both rolls. But as it was used that way at Worlds, it is two attacks.

 

Meaning, this title and gunner would stop you using the second TLT attack.

[Tsiegtiez 1,608]

Gunner matches with the ruling it had for Cluster Missiles back when, so that's no worries.

I hadn't heard about the Tactician ruling but that's some pretty solid evidence for that interpretation. Thanks!

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Well the TLT faq entry says:

 

"Twin Laser Turret is treated as two separate attacks against the same target"

 

So that makes it pretty clear how it interacts with things that stop you attacking afterwards, for me anyway.

[Tsiegtiez 1,608]

Well right, as far as effects like Jan Ors (pilot) are concerned it's important that the attacks be separate. But you only get to perform one attack in the attack phase, at which point TLT interjects and claims you get to do two.

I was mostly just musing but it felt like it could be interpreted that the Phantom title grants you a (Turret) Attack, and then TLT inserts the effect of two attacks on its own without being limited by the title card since you've satisfied the Phantom title by means of choosing a card with the "Attack:" header.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Yeah I think it falls under the same thing as gunner.

 

If you had the Phantom title, attacked at the end of the combat phase with a turret, you couldn't then gunner off that.

 

Neither could you use the extra turret shot from the title if you had gunner'd earlier on. Basically, gunner sucks if you have the Phantom title

 

 

So you can still get 3 TLT rolls over all, meaning in arc with Tactician you'd get 3 stress. Which isn't bad by any means. Just no 4th shot because of the title's wording.

[Parravon 5,217]

The Phantom title clearly says no more attacks if you attack at the end of the Combat phase. If you missed, then the Phantom title would definitely stop Gunner from doing anything, so he's not even in the equation. And I think if you could do both TLT attacks at the end of the Combat phase, it would also be too powerful. I think the Gunner entry in the FAQ will be the precedent and probably put this one to bed. 

When Gunner is used to perform a primary weapon attack, any additional attacks (such as from Cluster Missiles) are forfeited.

Change the "such as from Cluster Missiles" to "such as from TLT" and you've got your answer. After all, TLT is the same as Cluster Missiles in that it grants an additional attack, right? And the last line on the Phantom title is almost the same as Gunner's. Only the first one of the two attacks is going to be allowed, not the additional one. But that's still three attacks in a round, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Parravon

[arnoldrew 1,713]

Can the Ghost only perform an attack from the auxiliary firing arc if it has the title cards and the Phantom docked? It sounds like this would be the first time a (non-epic) ship has special rules that only apply to it, since every other ship with an auxiliary arc can fire from it as normal with its primary weapon.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Yeah you need the the title and a docked Phantom.

 

I have a theory that maybe the Special Forces TIE will have something similar. In the film it fires out the back/has a turret mounted on the bottom. It may have a rear arc that only works when you equip a title/turret/cannon/crew upgrade.

 

But we shall see.

[Dagonet 7,246]

I don't get how you can get to firing the TLT during the primary weapon attack and again at the end. 

 

It is not a secondary weapon on the Ghost?

 

I read the Phantom title as:

You may perform a primary attack using the rear arc. At the end of the combat phase, you may perform an attack with a turret.

 

Why would you use the TLT for your first attack?

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Maybe because neither of your arcs have a target?

 

The title doesn't say you HAVE to fire a primary weapon in order fire a turret at the end of the phase,

 

It says with the title you CAN fire primary out of the special rear arc (only way you can is having a docked Phantom and the title)

 

You may ALSO fire a turret weapon at the end of the combat phase. It's just a bonus for the title.

 

They aren't mutually exclusive things that you have to do.

 

 

So you could fire a primary out of the front or back and then fire a turret. Or you could fire your turret and then fire it again. But the way the title is worded and how the TLT works, you would only get the first of the two TLT attacks the second time around.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

I don't get how you can get to firing the TLT during the primary weapon attack and again at the end. 

 

It is not a secondary weapon on the Ghost?

 

I read the Phantom title as:

You may perform a primary attack using the rear arc. At the end of the combat phase, you may perform an attack with a turret

The extra attack is not conditional on the first part. If it said "You may perform a primary attack using the rear arc, THEN at the end of the combat phase...", or "if you do..." Or something like that you would have to be making a primary attack to get the bonus attack. But it doesn't say that, it just lists 2 things that the title allows you to do.

You can do this...

Oh, you can also do this...

[WWHSD 9,273]

Can the Ghost only perform an attack from the auxiliary firing arc if it has the title cards and the Phantom docked? It sounds like this would be the first time a (non-epic) ship has special rules that only apply to it, since every other ship with an auxiliary arc can fire from it as normal with its primary weapon.

The Firespray had rules that only applied to it until a second ship was released with an Auxiliary Arc. The Houndstooth has special rules that only apply to it. For all intents and purposes the TIE Phantom and K-Wing have rules that are unique to those ships.

[arnoldrew 1,713]

 

Can the Ghost only perform an attack from the auxiliary firing arc if it has the title cards and the Phantom docked? It sounds like this would be the first time a (non-epic) ship has special rules that only apply to it, since every other ship with an auxiliary arc can fire from it as normal with its primary weapon.

The Firespray had rules that only applied to it until a second ship was released with an Auxiliary Arc. The Houndstooth has special rules that only apply to it. For all intents and purposes the TIE Phantom and K-Wing have rules that are unique to those ships.

 

No, they didn't have special rules just for that ship. They introduced new concepts (auxiliary arcs and certain actions) to the game which theoretically (and later, actually) applied to other ships as well. It's not "The Firespray can shoot backwards," it's "The Firespray has an auxiliary arc. Ships with an auxiliary arc can perform primary weapon attacks through that arc." Get what I'm saying now?

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

Can the Ghost only perform an attack from the auxiliary firing arc if it has the title cards and the Phantom docked? It sounds like this would be the first time a (non-epic) ship has special rules that only apply to it, since every other ship with an auxiliary arc can fire from it as normal with its primary weapon.

The Firespray had rules that only applied to it until a second ship was released with an Auxiliary Arc. The Houndstooth has special rules that only apply to it. For all intents and purposes the TIE Phantom and K-Wing have rules that are unique to those ships.

 

No, they didn't have special rules just for that ship. They introduced new concepts (auxiliary arcs and certain actions) to the game which theoretically (and later, actually) applied to other ships as well. It's not "The Firespray can shoot backwards," it's "The Firespray has an auxiliary arc. Ships with an auxiliary arc can perform primary weapon attacks through that arc." Get what I'm saying now?

 

 

Since we don't have the rules insert for the Ghost we don't know that "special arc" doesn't get defined in a way similar to how the Firespray's insert defined Auxiliary arcs. We may very well see something like:

Special Firing Arc

Some ships have an special firing arc identified by dotted lines printed on its ship token and the [special Firing Arc Icon] in the shaded section of the arc. This arc is only usable by weapons and abilities that specifically reference this special firing arc.

 

 

Now looking at the picture I'm not 100% sure if the icon is something will appear in the rear arc of all of the Ghost Pilots or just the PS5 pilot, because it looks like the base that the ship is attached to doesn't have the icon so the icon might be related to that pilot's ability.  

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

I think the larger stand is obscuring it. It also looks like the little Sabine counter can go there too, which means I doubt they will limit it to a certain pilot/skill level.

 

But yes, I think that will be the catch-all ruling for an arc like this. As I said, we may see a 'conditional arc' (catchy) on the Special Forces TIE. or something else later on.

[Dagonet 7,246]

So you could fire a primary out of the front or back and then fire a turret. Or you could fire your turret and then fire it again. But the way the title is worded and how the TLT works, you would only get the first of the two TLT attacks the second time around.

 

Get it. Seems like poor wording to me, I'd've made the thing conditional, but then again, I'm not a big fan of FFG's wording in a lot of cases. .

 

Thanks!

[Warpman 2,115]

Guys, maybe the 3 stresses is alreay cool?

And yeah, it might be a good way to make people NOT put TLT onto it.

It most likely is meant for the new turret that comes with the ship. SIngle attack turret 

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

I'd still (if I was building big) put a TLT on it, as we may very well have two slots (one on the Ghost, one on the Phantom)

 

And if you are allowed to use the weapons/upgrades of the docked ship, that would give you a lot of choice.