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JA_42

problem with ally cost

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My players have a problem: they think (and I, to be honest) that ally (generally) are too costly! Han or Chewie for example are good, BUT 12-13 pts for an immediate deployement is pretty huge! So they prefer not us them!

In this way, we have a discusion about this issue. And maybe a solution (or a first step of solution): Do not pay the cost at the beginning, but 3 or 4 per turn (even at the beginning of the mission), each turn (even if this ally is damaged)... In this way, imperial have a compensation, but not a one time so huge amount of deployement points...

 

What do you think about this? how play your rebels?

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My rebels dont bring allies to missions, since they prefer mostly to do side missions with personal upgrades or other passive rewards.

 

This may change tho, since we started Twin Shadows Mini Campaign.

Saska Teft giving Han Solo Tech Tokens is a free +2 damage per attack (via Surge) and Solo's "fire back if no dmg was taken"/turn

made them very happy.

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Well, yes. The Imperial player gets all those points up front because the Rebels get it all up front as well. In my experience, Allies are usually worth it.

 

I've played through several campaigns (Military Might!). In a complete vacuum, most allies can handle their counterparts if matched up on their own. They certainly won't be unscathed, but generally they can defeat Imperial figures worth their cost. Han may be a little pricey for what you get, and the Rebel Troopers are underwhelming if you don't have Gideon's ability, but Luke, Chewy, and the Rebel Sabs are definitely worth their price, I hate seeing them enter the field. Most of unique allies get some of their cost from boosting adjacent figures (or within 3 ala Luke.)

 

The problem for the Rebels:

It's never a complete vacuum. The Imperial player drops down Royal Guards 4 out of 5 times, and then sets down all sorts of nasty attachments on them from their class decks, and then has the gall to not go after your Ally, but to just gun for the Heroes themselves in an attempt to wound you. What a jerk!

I know the Rebels don't have a lot of time, but you have to use your ally, take the first round, and just clear what the ally cost you to bring. Gun them down while using your Heroes to defend the ally (that may be a little counter-intuitive for allies like Chewbacca, but your heroes can rest and the allies cannot). By taking the single round to simply remove figures, and concentrate on those you can kill before they activate, you can marginalize the cost of the ally. After that, then you play the objective, but you have a full extra deployment card to both move and attack with, and perhaps more importantly, to soak up shots with. Any attack directed at an ally is not being used to wound or withdraw a hero.

 

The problem for the Empire:

It's never in a vacuum. Once the Rebels start buying Tier 2 items, they start being able to hit REALLY hard. In fact, once they start getting Tier 3 weapons, the allies start becoming less threatening than the heroes themselves, and Chewie and Luke are pretty large and looming threats. The only way to restrain them is to do exactly what they fear, and start all your available threat right at the beginning. Bring the House. Royal Guards should be at the top of your list. However, you can't place them where the Rebels can get to them from their initial deployment. You'll just lose them. Force the Rebels to come to their demise, take advantage of the Round Counter and make them move away from their cluster, hit them when they are alone but do not dole it out a little at a time. That's like a martial arts movie where the hero is surrounded by 15 guys but they only attack him one at a time. It is far easier for the Rebels to handle the opposition if it doesn't come all at once. 

 

 

I believe FFG thinks the allies in the campaign are worth more than their listed cost against the faceless minions. Most people, when they see the rules and the costs of the allies, don't understand why. Why did they just select this side mission and use up one of their precious side mission slots, go through all the trouble of completing the mission, and win this great reward of an Ally,... when the only thing that happens is that the Empire gets the same amount of points in Threat? I believe most Rebel players view that as winning the race but having to split the winnings equally with the guy that was trying to run you off the road.

 

My question though is .... what would you have them do? The game is balanced precariously, as any game must be where everyone's figures do different things. Fighting alongside the OT heroes was something that most wanted to do, FFG can't just give them as playable characters without giving the Empire something, it would be a slaughter. Likewise, since most allies can take on the additional threat by themselves, parceling out the additional Threat over time just makes it easier for the reinforced Rebels to handle. It is nice to be able to bring new units onto the battlefield every round, but you'll find them removed almost as fast. So I just don't see a better way to handle it than how it was designed.

 

I think they did a really good job with it. My two centi-creds.

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The only problem with allies is spending a valuable side mission to unlock them. Other than that they are fine.

 

Just like the imperial player, you don't bring a 12 cost unit on the 3rd mission or a 3 cost unit on the finale. You NEED to consider what the current threat per turn is.

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Rebel allies are broken.  Completely.

 

The problem is that the group the imp player can spawn from the threat far outweighs the ally the rebel player can bring.  

 

What I mean by this is that if the rebs bring luke.. the stormtrooper group that the imp player can spawn CAN kill luke in ONE activated round of attacks.  But luke could never kill all the troops he created from his threat in one activated round.  Its completely unbalanced.  Allies need to scale with the heroes as the campaign progresses, or they need to reduce the threat bonus.

 

The only allies worth bringing are the rebel troops or saboteurs.

Edited by PinkTaco

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Rebel allies are broken.  Completely.

 

The problem is that the group the imp player can spawn from the threat far outweighs the ally the rebel player can bring.  

 

What I mean by this is that if the rebs bring luke.. the stormtrooper group that the imp player can spawn CAN kill luke in ONE activated round of attacks.  But luke could never kill all the troops he created from his threat in one activated round.  Its completely unbalanced.  Allies need to scale with the heroes as the campaign progresses, or they need to reduce the threat bonus.

 

The only allies worth bringing are the rebel troops or saboteurs.

 

The rebel players must be very unlucky with rolls to lose Luke (10 health, white die+1 autoblock) within one round to a stormtrooper squad.

With clever use of bacta infusion from crates, named allies can be a real pain in the ass.

Edited by thePREdiger

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Imperial Player here -- I've experienced the same problems with allies that are being cited here: heroes bring an ally, and it gets killed in approximately the first round, not nearly making up for the additional threat I've been given. Or, if I don't go for the ally kill, bringing a hero gives me a *lot* of flexibility in my deployment, being able to easily block objectives with my additional troops.

 

Multiple times my heroes have complained they thought bringing an ally was a mistake. Even if we concede that it is occasionally marginally better to bring an ally than not, it seems quite suspect that heroes should choose a side mission to grab an ally when they could pick a side mission to get something that is definitely strictly better to possess.

 

Consider many agenda-imposed side missions. If the heroes win these, they generally get 100 additional credits each. This boost in credits seems far more significant than having an ally available. When there are two active ally-gaining side missions in play, purchasing an agenda side mission actually gives them an out if they win, their bonus is better than having an ally. (Sure, if they lose, of course it's better for me, but it's probably not worth the ~3 influence risk at that point.)

 

Furthermore, receiving more than one ally seems even closer to useless -- sure, it provides them more flexibility for who to bring, but this seems hardly worth a whole other side mission.

 

An idea: "Reduce the cost of bringing an ally by 1 for each ally you own."

 

This makes allies instantly more appealing (though not entirely overpowered), and it is still quite appealing to gain allies additionally to the first one.

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in my experience the allies have almost won every mission they have been on. the help clear the board while heroes focus on the objective.

 

they are great to create distractions.

Edited by Spidey NZ

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Well Lifey, if they have 2 side missions with allies to choose and your agenda card, even if they choose your agenda card and win it they gain more from that mission then from the other two BUT the two ally side missions are still active and they even lost one of their side mission slots. So playing a 3 influence side mission with a reward which fits your style is a win win situation for you regardless who wins the mission or if it is chosen or not.  

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The thing is that not all allies are the same. Get Luke and play him well and he is easily worth the threat many times over. He hits hard, has staying power with his Recover, and with good placement he will give constant rerolls to your other characters.

Happen to have Gideon as well? Good, now Luke will become the Jedi he was meant to be with up to three attacks each round.

Equally, R2-D2 and C-3PO offer a lot of support for a tiny bit of threat.

Edited by Cremate

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The thing is that not all allies are the same. Get Luke and play him well and he is easily worth the threat many times over. He hits hard, has staying power with his Recover, and with good placement he will give constant rerolls to your other characters.

Happen to have Gideon as well? Good, now Luke will become the Jedi he was meant to be with up to three attacks each round.

Equally, R2-D2 and C-3PO offer a lot of support for a tiny bit of threat.

 

How does Luke get 3 attacks?

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Forgive my ignorance, but I only see two attacks. The one he gets normally, plus the one he would ge with Gideon. As an ally and not a hero he would only get one normal attack, correct? Is there a third attack I am not seeing?

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How does Luke get 3 attacks?

 

Gideon with Masterstroke; and if he's got Called Shot the likelihood of Luke getting Recovery consistently is increased markedly.

 

Oh I see. Just wanted to make sure you weren't using Luke's normal attack and then Saber Strike.

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Sadly as IP you cannot alter your deployment groups AFTER the Heroes have decided if to bring an ally (which is the last step uo setting up a campaign mission).

So you might end up with a good amount of threat, but no Imperial Elites in your deck (who would add elite guards on a threat-lvl 4 mission)

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Sadly as IP you cannot alter your deployment groups AFTER the Heroes have decided if to bring an ally (which is the last step uo setting up a campaign mission).

So you might end up with a good amount of threat, but no Imperial Elites in your deck (who would add elite guards on a threat-lvl 4 mission)

Really? ****, we've been playing wrong. That makes a serious difference!

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Sadly as IP you cannot alter your deployment groups AFTER the Heroes have decided if to bring an ally (which is the last step uo setting up a campaign mission).

So you might end up with a good amount of threat, but no Imperial Elites in your deck (who would add elite guards on a threat-lvl 4 mission)

Really? ****, we've been playing wrong. That makes a serious difference!

You're not alone. A lot of people mess this up. It is the fact that the Empire has to choose his "ally created" threat from his Open Groups that allows Allies to be worth it. The Imperial doesn't get to see that the Rebels have deployed Solo only then to reach for Fett.

It sets up a small little minigame. Will they or won't they? If they have Chewy, will they bring him? So as the Imperial you want to put one semi-expensive card in your Open Groups, but if they don't bring Chewy ... well that card's not coming out any time soon. (though this is less of a problem the further into the campaign you get).

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