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Danthrax

FFG issues article legalizing BOTH damage decks

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Here's the thing, the more people that pick up the new core, the more voices will switch over to favor a TFA-only damage deck rule. But as time goes on, you're not likely to see people switch the other direction. To those who say they're probably reverse this yet again, I think (and hope) that is true.

 

I don't get it, though. They gave everyone fair warning. Four months seems like plenty of time to me.

The objection was never using the new deck, it was being forced to buy the new core which quite a few people had zero interest in.

Had they released the new deck on its own there would have been zero protest

 

 

My point exactly. We can get almost every other part of the Core set separately now either other ways (asteroids in the epic ships, dice packs, tournament legal 3rd party range rulers...) it makes no sense not to offer more options to get the pieces we need to stay tournament legal. If they just offered it separately, I would have bought the 3 decks my family needs to stay valid, and never once complained about having to buy 3 new cores we didn't want.

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Also insulting people for being poor got a few people banned i'd watch that.

I didn't say you'd insulted anyone I pointed out people had got banned over insulting people for being poor and you should be careful about such comments, there was no subtext just advising caution.

 

Right. You weren't accusing me of insulting anyone but casually advised caution anyway...

 

Then you go on to say I'm the one intent on looking for insults. Incredible.

 

 

Anyway. Before this derails any further, for the record:

 

I'm in favour of the new balanced damage deck that FFG developed. 

 

I am not whining because I bought the FA Core Set (even though I actually don't plan to fly anything in there). I just like gameplay balance, and I wish FFG had stuck with their plan.

 

 

This was a late edit to my last post, so you may have missed the question. But if the new deck was free, would you be for or against it?

 

Edit: nvm, you just answered

Edited by zerotc

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I have no objection to the new deck at all, I object to wasting £25 on ships I'll never fly and cardboard i'll never use.

That's a big ship I could be buying instead or a pair of fighters.

I don't even object to buying it seperetly.

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Not sure on your country, but just found one that ships to Australia for $18.  Sure, you have to spend $18, but it's a far cry from the $60 you were going on about.  I say if you can't afford the $18 to play in an official tournament by Jan 1st, then too bad for you.  You have a couple of months to save up for it.

 

Canada. $22 for the deck, $60 for the Core set. And it's not a matter of "can't afford", so much as, as I said, being pleased that I don't have to spend that money, immediately, on ships I don't really care about, simply in order to keep playing the game in a tournament.

 

Well, we really wouldn't want you to be displeased.....

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Anyway. Before this derails any further, for the record:

 

I'm in favour of the new balanced damage deck that FFG developed. 

 

I am not whining because I bought the FA Core Set (even though I actually don't plan to fly anything in there). I just like gameplay balance, and I wish FFG had stuck with their plan.

 

 

I agree and this is what we should be talking about, not whether or not people are forced to buy something.  

 

FFG made a new deck to balance the game and now says that it doesn't matter which you choose.  This is the problem were having.

 

The fact that they put the deck in a new core set some people don't want to buy is another issue.

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Anyway. Before this derails any further, for the record:

 

I'm in favour of the new balanced damage deck that FFG developed. 

 

I am not whining because I bought the FA Core Set (even though I actually don't plan to fly anything in there). I just like gameplay balance, and I wish FFG had stuck with their plan.

 

 

I agree and this is what we should be talking about, not whether or not people are forced to buy something.  

 

FFG made a new deck to balance the game and now says that it doesn't matter which you choose.  This is the problem were having.

 

The fact that they put the deck in a new core set some people don't want to buy is another issue.

 

 

You are completely right. But, the one problem CAUSED the second problem.

 

If the rules were changed to say, "all players must have the new plastic dial covers to play in tournaments," I'm OK with that because you can buy the dials separately. BUT, if the new dials were only available to players buying the new Scum epic ship.... I hope you see the point.

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Anyway. Before this derails any further, for the record:

 

I'm in favour of the new balanced damage deck that FFG developed. 

 

I am not whining because I bought the FA Core Set (even though I actually don't plan to fly anything in there). I just like gameplay balance, and I wish FFG had stuck with their plan.

 

 

I agree and this is what we should be talking about, not whether or not people are forced to buy something.  

 

FFG made a new deck to balance the game and now says that it doesn't matter which you choose.  This is the problem were having.

 

The fact that they put the deck in a new core set some people don't want to buy is another issue.

 

 

Fair enough. The announcement suggests that the observational evidence from the playerbase (by definition, larger than their internal playtesting department) showed no great imbalance between the two decks- one had consistently painful crits, one had crits that varied between ignorable and match-ending, based on your squadron and the crit in question.

 

It's not the first time something reached play that FFG's design and balance team later realized had a different-than-expected impact in one way or another (cf: "Classic" decloak, half points for large ships, Tactician not originally being a Limited card, Evade tokens adding Evade dice results instead of directly cancelling hit results).

 

Possibly, as I alluded to earlier, their sales figures were disappointing and they backed down on the change. Also possible- and the alternative for which we currently have the most evidence- is that it didn't balance out in the wider world as they expected from their internal playtests.

 

Edit: I spell wel.

Edited by Farwalker

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Anyway. Before this derails any further, for the record:

 

I'm in favour of the new balanced damage deck that FFG developed. 

 

I am not whining because I bought the FA Core Set (even though I actually don't plan to fly anything in there). I just like gameplay balance, and I wish FFG had stuck with their plan.

 

 

I agree and this is what we should be talking about, not whether or not people are forced to buy something.  

 

FFG made a new deck to balance the game and now says that it doesn't matter which you choose.  This is the problem were having.

 

The fact that they put the deck in a new core set some people don't want to buy is another issue.

 

 

You are completely right. But, the one problem CAUSED the second problem.

 

If the rules were changed to say, "all players must have the new plastic dial covers to play in tournaments," I'm OK with that because you can buy the dials separately. BUT, if the new dials were only available to players buying the new Scum epic ship.... I hope you see the point.

 

 

I completely understand and mentioned that it was in fact another problem.  They have clearly noticed this issue themselves in the fact that they are issuing new damage decks to people that are attending worlds.  Like I've said before in casual play it doesn't matter but for premier events they really need a new solution other then, ok just use which ever you want regardless of us wanting to make a more fair and balanced game.

 

Edit: Also wanted to add that your point is complete valid and I agree they should have released a balance fix differently.  

Edited by Claarbar

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This completely undermines the point of fixing the damage deck in the first place. Bad move.

Agreed, I dislike this change.

 

 

Terrible idea, OP.

 

o_O

 

It wasn't my idea, geez

 

OP also means Organized Play...

 

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

 

ah, OK

 

I thought the messenger was being shot!

 

We should shoot him anyways :P

 

But yeah, I can see the reason behind this move and also see the reason against it.

 

The main reason is that it becomes a little more consumer friendly with not forcing players to buy both core sets but giving them an option to choose one or the other. Lets face it as crazy as it may sound some people don't want to play with the new T-70s and I-Fighters, they rather play with the TIE-Fighter because nothing beats the original, and the obsolete X-wing.This also allows for new players that just got the TFA core set to be able to play with players who got the classic core set but not the new TFA one.

 

The cons is well now players will chose the damage deck that has the least impact on them. So Super Dash will obviously take the new one so he won't lose his pilot ability or his HLC, while TIE swarms will take the old one because they have no EPTs or secondary weapons to lose. Not a good set of mechanics it does take away from the competitive set up and accounting for critical effects when list designing.

 

But I wouldn't say that this is final. According to the wording it does seem that premier events such as Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds will be requiring the new damage deck. With that in mind it may be that regionals and nationals next year will likely also be giving out new damage decks if the change over hasn't been made. So in a way without selling damage decks separately FFG has made a new option in selling them with premier tickets instead. So there will eventually be a phasing out of the old deck, it just may come at a later time like 2017.

Edited by Marinealver

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It's not illogical.

 

There are a lot of people entering tournaments very quickly. If you are selling a starter box and then saying "no, you should buy the other starter box as well because otherwise you can't play". That's a terrible business strategy.

 

As soon as there no sets available with the old deck you can start thinking about phasing the old deck out.

This is a good point.  They need to rerelease the original Core Set with the new deck.

 

This is unfortunately what most likely prompted FFG to reverse their decision.

 

People not wanting to pay $30 for 3 ships, a new rulebook, and a balanced damage deck after 3 years.

Then maybe they should just, you know, RELEASE THE **** DECK ON IT'S OWN instead of refusing to do that.  If they wanted everyone to use the deck then they should have let people BUY the freakin' thing.

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This is a terrible idea.

 

Why don't they just say you can use the new or old TIE Phantom rules as well? I'm sure that would make some people happy too. In fact, why not make the entire errata optional? After all, you don't want to exclude players that bought ships based on now obsolete rules do you?

 

Weak decision by FFG.

 

I'm not at all convinced by the legitimacy of the complaints made by those that didn't want to buy the new damage deck, there is literally no difference between that and the release of a new edition that every miniatures company releases every few years.

Well, you don't need anything new in order to play the Phantom in the corrected way so that argument is invalid.

Also irrelevant is your bit about other publishers releasing new editions every year so just soak it up with FFG as well.

We aren't playing other games, what they do is completely uninteresting.

Are you really comparing rules text to physical product and saying it's the same thing?

FFG sells two core set, a core set implies everything you need to get started. You shouldn't mandate the purchase of both starter sets to be eligible to play.

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This is a terrible idea.

 

Why don't they just say you can use the new or old TIE Phantom rules as well? I'm sure that would make some people happy too. In fact, why not make the entire errata optional? After all, you don't want to exclude players that bought ships based on now obsolete rules do you?

 

Weak decision by FFG.

 

I'm not at all convinced by the legitimacy of the complaints made by those that didn't want to buy the new damage deck, there is literally no difference between that and the release of a new edition that every miniatures company releases every few years.

Well, you don't need anything new in order to play the Phantom in the corrected way so that argument is invalid.

Also irrelevant is your bit about other publishers releasing new editions every year so just soak it up with FFG as well.

We aren't playing other games, what they do is completely uninteresting.

Are you really comparing rules text to physical product and saying it's the same thing?

FFG sells two core set, a core set implies everything you need to get started. You shouldn't mandate the purchase of both starter sets to be eligible to play.

 

 

Sorry but you're completely wrong. Most new editions of various game systems are only a difference in rules text.

 

How much does it cost to buy the new edition of *any* product? How is the new starter set out of line *in any way*? Or do you think it's completely free for companies to develop, play-test, and produce new rules?

 

This pandering nonsense isn't even close to the right answer, if FFG really thought it was a problem they should have just released the damage deck separately.

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This is unfortunately what most likely prompted FFG to reverse their decision.

 

People not wanting to pay $30 for 3 ships, a new rulebook, and a balanced damage deck after 3 years.

Then maybe they should just, you know, RELEASE THE **** DECK ON IT'S OWN instead of refusing to do that.  If they wanted everyone to use the deck then they should have let people BUY the freakin' thing.

 

Yea, hopefully they end up doing that and phase out the old deck completely.

 

Please, FFG!!

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This is unfortunately what most likely prompted FFG to reverse their decision.

 

People not wanting to pay $30 for 3 ships, a new rulebook, and a balanced damage deck after 3 years.

Then maybe they should just, you know, RELEASE THE **** DECK ON IT'S OWN instead of refusing to do that.  If they wanted everyone to use the deck then they should have let people BUY the freakin' thing.

Yea, hopefully they end up doing that and phase out the old deck completely.

 

Please, FFG!!

All of this.

 

I like the new deck. I'd take it over the old one any day, but when, to get it, I have to also buy THREE ships I don't want from a movie I don't care about yet, with cookie-cutter anonymous pilots and boring badly-rehashed designs...

 

Well, at that point I don't care for the new deck.

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There are plenty of third party players out there who, as mentioned earlier, do acrylic tokens and templates. Presumably these (being printed) are part of the same copyright covering the rules and damage deck.

 

Why have none produced a third party damage deck to be available as a standalone product?

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The best possible solution is just to hand out the new damage deck as part of the tournament kit. The players that happen to already have one can get into the tournament at a reduced costs and those that don't have one have to pay slightly more and get to keep the damage deck. That way the rules get fixed, the production costs of the new deck is covered, quality is maintained, and everyone is happy.

 

Hell, they can even skimp on packaging costs if they do it that way, just put them in zip-lock bags.

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The only plausible reason behind this choice is that ffg found out they still have a shitload of old core sets which they need to sell.

Also, announcing this change of mind after many players bought the new set just for the damage deck is pure commercial trickery: understandable, but absolutely despisable

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There are plenty of third party players out there who, as mentioned earlier, do acrylic tokens and templates. Presumably these (being printed) are part of the same copyright covering the rules and damage deck.

 

Why have none produced a third party damage deck to be available as a standalone product?

 

Acylic tokens from third parties have different graphic designs on them than FFG's official ones to avoid copyright issues. If a third party produces a damage deck with the exact wording of FFG's damage deck, it would open them up to a lawsuit.

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There are plenty of third party players out there who, as mentioned earlier, do acrylic tokens and templates. Presumably these (being printed) are part of the same copyright covering the rules and damage deck.

 

Why have none produced a third party damage deck to be available as a standalone product?

 

Acylic tokens from third parties have different graphic designs on them than FFG's official ones to avoid copyright issues. If a third party produces a damage deck with the exact wording of FFG's damage deck, it would open them up to a lawsuit.

 

 

Fair enough

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To the extent that FFG reads and cares about what is written in this forum as regards feedback on their decisions, I would like to express my position that they made a good explanation of the rationale for the revised damage deck, and this new decision directly undermines that rationale. I feel like the new deck is superior for gameplay and I'm confused as to how they feel otherwise, especially considering the obvious time and thought that went into producing the new deck.

For my part, I'd rather see the new deck be standardized after a suitable transition period.

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To the extent that FFG reads and cares about what is written in this forum as regards feedback on their decisions, I would like to express my position that they made a good explanation of the rationale for the revised damage deck, and this new decision directly undermines that rationale. I feel like the new deck is superior for gameplay and I'm confused as to how they feel otherwise, especially considering the obvious time and thought that went into producing the new deck.

For my part, I'd rather see the new deck be standardized after a suitable transition period.

 

Couldn't have said it better.

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I don't really care what damage deck is used.....HOWEVER if you bought the new core set for the new damage deck as a key factor in that purchase you have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you want a t-70 or a f/o you could have just waited till wave 8 and buy an expansion pack. If you wanted certain cards like bb-8 you could buy them online separately, all cheaper than a new core set.

The other factor is that it was being officially stated that the new deck would be the only damage deck accepted, so their was more reason to buy the new core set that has now also been invalidated.

Like I said, I personally don't care what deck is used....those of you with a gripe though do have reason to be upset.

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