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Jump Packs and flying

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This is a super newb question but....

 

Jump packs; How far can a Space Marine with agility 4 and 5 respectively move with a jump pack and almost more importantly how does Flying trait 12 work with regards to half moves full moves runs and charges.  I've had Marines in different games moving speeds from diddidle-i-doh to damned if I know.

 

I know this is pretty basic but Flyers to my mind aren't well explained in the rule book.

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"Doubles base movement..."

 

So based on the chart from P205 core, if your Agility bonus is 5 your base is effectively counted as double that which means half move is 10, full is 20, Charge at 30 and Run at 60. You're basically (no surprise) jumping into the air to gain extra distance but you have to finish on ground and cannot end in mid air.

 

Regarding Flyers and you kick the engines into a higher setting, see Flying on P210. It mentions:

 

"While flying or hovering a creature must devote a movement action to maintaining its flight each turn..."

 

Basically Flyer (12) becomes your fixed base movement. So you become Flyer with base of 12 when up in the air and can do the same movements you can normally so Half Move/Full/Charge/Run with the same modifiers. You also HAVE to move. If you don't then...well, gravity reasserts itself since you're not maintaining the action. If at a few meters above the ground you land unharmed. Any higher than that and we're going from leg breaks and injuries up to and including marine pizza.

 

So while with Flyer a characters movement per round becomes:

 

12/24/36/72

 

However as per Jump pack, can only use it for about a minute narrative time before you have to give it another minute to cool (about 10 rounds of combat assuming 6 seconds per round).

 

At least thats how I think it is IIRC. Might be wrong and can't find me copy of the books. Take this therefore with a pinch of salt, pepper and a wedge of lemon for seasoning.

Edited by Calgor Grim

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At least thats how I think it is IIRC. Might be wrong and can't find me copy of the books. Take this therefore with a pinch of salt, pepper and a wedge of lemon for seasoning.

 

It is very correct (and possibly tasty), which makes your accuracy without having access to the books kind of scary :)

 

Anyway, as it has been said, all relevant info (along with lots of additional unnecessary details) can be found in Core, p. 210. The surprising part is that the rules actually disallow hovering in one place - if a character doesn't spend at least a half Movement action to maintain flight, he automatically lands/drops. Now with jump packs it makes some sense, I can see how hovering on freaking jets might require some skills with the backwash and all, but it eludes me why would a winged creature or a spooky levitating Necron drop down if it stops moving around.

 

The flying rules apparently can be turned into hardcore simulationist number-crunching very easily. Is it more streamlined in Black Crusade or other 40k lines? I only have access to DH2 besides DW at the moment, and it's pretty much the same.

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 Now with jump packs it makes some sense, I can see how hovering on freaking jets might require some skills with the backwash and all, but it eludes me why would a winged creature or a spooky levitating Necron drop down if it stops moving around.

I guess it's because some winged creatures can only hover for brief periods but is to do with muscle structure to stay stationary and flap?

Also Necron stuff technically has Hoverer or can revert to IIRC? At least I'd rule they could for most things

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I guess it's because some winged creatures can only hover for brief periods but is to do with muscle structure to stay stationary and flap?

 

Also Necron stuff technically has Hoverer or can revert to IIRC? At least I'd rule they could for most things

 

According to Core's Flying Movement rules (also on p. 210) there's no difference between Hoverer and Flyer in that regard: "While flying or hovering, a creature must devote a Movement Action to maintaining its flight each Turn, or it falls."

 

Of course I'd overrule it too - in my book, an anti-grav-equipped Necron hovering above, say, a lava lake shouldn't spend a Half Action per round to stay in the air and not die. It's just the fact that people obviously tried hard to represent a real-world-physics-compatible handling of flight, and still missed such obvious blank spots that irks me. But I'm admittedly in a ranty mood, I'm penning my thesis so I'm both awfully cranky and incredibly open to any and all possible distractions :)

 

Anyway, to end it on a more positive note, the rule modifiers concerning gravity sound like fun. I never tried it before, but now I'm thinking about doing a stint in a high-grav environment.

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So based on the chart from P205 core, if your Agility bonus is 5 your base is effectively counted as double that which means half move is 10, full is 20, Charge at 30 and Run at 60. You're basically (no surprise) jumping into the air to gain extra distance but you have to finish on ground and cannot end in mid air.

 

I'd just like to add that size modifies your AG bonus for calculating the movement. E.g. for a Space Marines, your effective AG bonus for movements is AG bonus +1.

 

Fun fact: Try calculating your maximum travel distance if you have a jet pack, the sprint talent, a dilation field and the solo mode Burst of Speed and say a basic AG bonus of 5(6 size modified).

Edited by Avdnm

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Wow. Sometimes I think this game was commissioned by an evil world-dominating cabal of accountants, I swear. Anyway, I have a perverted wish to see whether this thing is actually logical, albeit overcomplicated, or the overcomplication simply hides the lack of coherent rules.

 

Max. travel distance means we're calculating Run distance. The order by how the bonuses are added is crucial here, so as a general rule first I add the Ag bonus modifiers, followed by movement point modifiers. Still, it all remains somewhat arbitrary, since few abilities mention explicitly where the modifier should be added to the equation.

 

1) Starting value: 5/10/15/30

2) Size adds +1 to Ag (and since we're nitpicking, it's also worth mentioning that in Character Creation, Core consistently attributes this bonus to the Power Armour, and not to Size), making it 6/12/18/36 (Size description in Core, p. 134 says When calculating movement, apply the size modifier first, and then other modifiers from other traits or talents.)

3) Here comes the Dilation Field (grants the owner the Unnatural Agility and Unnatural Speed Traits):

- Unnatural Agility makes the Ag Bonus 12, so 12/24/36/72

4) Burst of Speed cuts the line (see Unnatural Speed description): This ability increases the character’s Agility Bonus by 2 with all the usual associated benefits for a number of Rounds equal to his Rank. Result: 14/28/42/84

5) Unnatural Speed: For the purposes of determining movement, the creature doubles its Agility Bonus (after modifying AB from other traits and factors, specifically size) 28/56/84/168

 

A slight change of order is also possible, adding Burst of Speed first, then Dilation Field. That would look like this: After BoS, 8/16/24/48; after Unn. Agility, 16/32/48/96; after Unn. Speed, 32/64/96/192)

 

6) Jump pack: allow the Battle-Brother to double his Base Movement. 56/112/168/336

7) Sprint: When taking a Full Move Action, the character can move an extra number of metres equal to his Agility Bonus. When taking the Run Action, the character may double his movement for one
Round.
So a battle-brother employing everything above could run a staggering 672 (or 768) metres in one round. That is, in six seconds. By a human, weighing hundreds of kilograms, in full armour. Eat that, Usain Bolt.

 

Also, factor in that by the time a character gets to Famed (a prerequisite of getting Dilation Field), he probably clears rank 5, raising the bonus of Burst of speed to +4.

 

And now I'm convinced that my worth as a human being lessened considerably by actually spending time on this. :wacko:

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Unnatural AG doubles your AG bonus, and your movement is directly related to your AG bonus, so why wouldn't it modify your movement?

 

By the way, after I made this calculation the first time (with a character who had a natural AG bonus of 6 and was at rank 5) was the first time I really felt DW was a bit like Space Marines described in some of the books (almost too fast for a human to catch their movement).

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Unnatural Agility does not modify movement, only Unnatural Speed (core rulebook, p.136)

 

facepalm

 

The one thing I though I understood before delving into the mess above, and now this...

 

Unnatural AG doubles your AG bonus, and your movement is directly related to your AG bonus, so why wouldn't it modify your movement?

 

No, sadly Jargal's right, there's indeed a line tucked between the unnatural modifier calculations saying "Note this trait does not modify the creature’s movement." The info should have warranted some highlighting, or at least to be mentioned along with the word "Agility." Oh, well. What's the point though, splitting Agility benefits like that?

 

At least it removes the ambiguity in the order of calculations. A Marine can run 384 metres, which rises to 480 metres after the increase in Burst of Speed at Rank 5. A little under half a kilometre in six seconds is still brutally unrealistic.

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What makes it so sad is that I specifically checked the Trait description and still missed it.

 

Also, if the theoretical record-shattering Marine is a Libby, there's also The Quickening in Honour the Chapter p. 102, further raising the max, and that's before we painted it red :D

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 What's the point though, splitting Agility benefits like that?

 

 

It's DH1/RT/DW feature. I think they wanted to separate speed of reaction (AG bonus give + to Intiative) from movement speed.

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The morale of all this is quite simply:

 

"By the throne half of these rules are illogical/contradictory or complete and utter ork logic"

OY, YA BLASTED GIT, WATS WRONG WIF ORK LOGIK?

 

 

It isn't perfect logical Tau speak or glorious Emperor derived faith? :P

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