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Darkcloak

40k superseded?

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 I think people are overestimating the number of new ships that the movies will provide.

 

You're underestimating Disney's desire and ability to use these movies to make a lot of money :-)

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And the best part of these rulebooks?  Only 1/10th of the book is usually rules - the rest is fluff and pictures of the models themselves.  You're paying through the nose for a glorified catalogue.

 

 

I mean, that's the best part of the rulebooks...

 

The main issue is that's the only way you can get the rules, at least in 40k. Things may be looking up with the Age of Sigmar release style, mind, even if everything else about it is rather depressing.

Edited by __underscore__

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 I think people are overestimating the number of new ships that the movies will provide.

 

You're underestimating Disney's desire and ability to use these movies to make a lot of money :-)

 

 

I'd totaly buy a Maleficent class star destroyer. ;)

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And what if you want to use allied detachments or go unbound or do a themed army?

 

WH£40K rulebook (£50), Codex: Skitarri (£30), Codex: Cult Mechanicus (£30), Codex: Imperial Knights (£30) - that's over £100 before you've even bought any models to play with ).

 

 

Plus that one white dwarf with the rules for that admech formation that let's you take vehicle upgrades and wargear for free!

Bah!

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 It does look neat, even though I'm never going to try it

 

That's basically it. Most people have that reaction. Well the new potential players have.

The old guard just screamed "betrayal!" and left.

 

PRO: The rules are free. CON: they have some odd things in them. 

PRO: You are totaly free in army selection, CON: wich is horribly imbalanced.

PRO: Miniatures look good*. CON: But are hideously overpriced.

PRO: New setting and background story vary between "What background story?" and "What the fuuuu?"

CON: new setting is BS There is no pro here.

 

 

* If you like space marine x-mass ornaments...

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You don't have to spend 50 bucks on a rule book and then 50 more bucks on another rulebook. The one time the game has forced players to buy an updated version of the rules (Force Awakens core set with the new damage deck), it came with three more models and various game supplies at a cheaper price than any of the 40k rulebooks. 

 

Also the updated rulebook is available as a free PDF download, the FAQ covers the changes and the new damage deck basically comes free with the purchase of 2 FO TIEs and a T-70 X-Wing. And if you're going to Worlds you get given a new damage deck if you need one...

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I do not like your comparison. You bring 400pts as example. Format that is not part of standard play. Hell, even Epic is 300pts.

So to paraphrase jokerkd. To follow you example of battle format. Say I want to play 3000pts battle. I want to equip all my tactical squads with grav guns. 2 per box x6. Just checked price. Tactical squad is 35euro. So I pay 210 euro just for core, where are the elites, heavy, HQ?

Your example of 5 Raiders, sure it is expensive but a list of 16 Tie/Adv with title and ATC is murder.

Lol X-wing more expensive? Your codex does not give you all the upgrade options you will ever need.

Cool I have this space marine tactical squad.... hmm I want to give them a lascannon as well..... **** I don't have a model with a lascannon because it doesn't come in the tactical squad box set even though according to my expensive codex book it's a possible upgrade for the sqaud.... oh well ill have to go out and spend a bunch more money on that single model.

 

And before you say you can just proxy that Lascannon well how bout you just do that with TIE/X1 upgrade card and still have that tonne of money you have saved by playing X-wing instead of 40k

You are both, of course, correct. And I should have been more clear with my language.

However, my point stands. I can take my single codex, and use it for an infinite number of points. I can apply the rules in it to as many units as I like.

How many times can I use a single Shield Upgrade card?

Once.

If I want to use that card more than once, I need multiple copies of it because... reasons.

Yes, buying a codex and army book is more expensive than buying a ship or three. But I never have to buy another 'rule' again, where with X Wing I need multiple copies of the rules. In fact, I need a copy for every time I want to use it. Imagine if I wanted to play a 1,000 point game. How many different upgrade cards would I need then? How much would that cost me? That's not an issue with a codex/army book style system.

And it's not just 40K that I'm talking about here. Any wargame that uses a rulebook and written list/roster has a much better (and more affordable) system than X Wing. Kings of War was mentioned earlier: I paid about $20 for the gamers edition rulebook and it came with every upgrade and every rule I could ever want to add to my armies, no matter how large they are. And I don't need to buy another copy just because two of my units are using the same upgrade.

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Imagine if I wanted to play a 1,000 point game. How many different upgrade cards would I need then? How much would that cost me? That's not an issue with a codex/army book style system.

 

Logical fallacy is a logical fallacy.  Imagine if I wanted to play an unbound Apocalypse game using my entire collection, with Tau, Space Marines, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus, Harlequins, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Grey Knights all teaming up on the same side.

 

Now imagine I "only" had the 2013 Eldar, Tau Dark Angels and Space Marines codexes, and the 2014 Imperial Knights codex - all of which have been replaced since their release, and are now obsolete.  That's right - obsolete, in little over two years.

 

TL;DR?  Reductio as absurdum does not help your argument.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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If I want to use that card more than once, I need multiple copies of it because... reasons.

 

 

it makes sense as you cant put the same physical droid in multiple ships, so you need multiple droids.

Imo X-Wing is a bit of a combination of wargames and tradingcard games. In Trading card games, in order to be legal, you need multiple cards otherwise people would proxy everything and buy less.

FFG probably looked at trading card games and came to the discovery that people will keep buying new expansions to get a single item that would enhance their favorite build. Luckily with X-wing's expansions you know what you get, so it's less of a money drain.

X-Wing will probably never have that many different unique items as 40k, so if you are a completionist and want to have 1 item of each faction, you only need about 1300 dollars. I fear you'll need a whole lot more for 40k.

They are 2 completely different games, but for new players X-Wing is much easier to get into (rules, game-time, SW-legacy, price of competitive builds) and I expect the average player will have to spend less money on X-Wing to get enough different play options he's satisfied with than 40k.

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TL;DR? Reductio as absurdum does not help your argument.

I dont think that means what you think it means.

FFGs inane requirement for multiple redundant upgrade cards is not one of its strengths. The amount of cards on the table for some games is preposterous. GWs 'army book' system IS one of its strengths, and one area in which they provide a better service to their customers than FFG. Of course GW bastardise the system, deliberately obsoleting perfectly good books purely to coerce customers into parting with their dollars, which is abhorrent, but that doesn't mean the fundamental principles of the system are broken.

Edited by Chucknuckle

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I keep hearing all this stuff about Age of Sigmar (AoS) flopping. Why is that? The rules? It looks like a more compact starter game/set at first glance than anything I've see for Warhammer. It does look neat, even though I'm never going to try it.(Painting figures has always been a turn-off for me; I don't mind assembling as I have Gundam Gunpla. Furthermore I'm not a fan of overly complicated rules.)

Oh the rules suck here's some examples:

-summoning is broken you can take nagash as your only model gaining the sudden death bonus, then he can summon an army on turn one that will only continue to grow.

-you can take a skaven doombell and fateweaver roll the dice for the bell have fateweaver change the result to a 13 and just win.

-there is a piece of scenery I forget which that if you place it down is unkillable and auto wins the game.

-standing behind a wall gives no save, standing on it does.

-shields are a common item but each unit has different rules for how they work.

-raw you can't actually hit most models on a flying stand and they can't hit you.

Then there's stupidity like to activate a hero's power you need to pretend to ride a horse and talk to it, or have a better beard than him.

It's more expensive 100 models the recommended size will cost you $1100 for sigmarines.

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To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

Edited by Gungo

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To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

What is cheap? For something being cheap you have to compare it to something you find expensive.

Hence: X-wing is cheap compared to 40k.

But compared to checkers, X-wing is very expensive.

 

This topic is started by people who played 40k, but switched to X-wing and have never returned to 40k and wondered if there are more players like this, resulting in a discussion why X-wing would be more popular than 40k. The difference in price-tag between these games is one of those reasons.

I played a completely different FFG-wargame (Tide of Iron) before I got into X-wing. Tide of Iron was a lot cheaper, but units were less customizable, less good looking and the game easily took several hours.

Edited by Ingaric

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Our gaming store got it's GW affiliation a couple years back and they dedicated a set of shelves to their products.  Paints, brushes, glues, dice, models and books.  

 

I looked at the product the other day and it's the same stuff that was on the shelf a year ago.  I was talking with the owner and he verified that most of the product hasn't moved in a year.  Compare that to X Wing.  Started off as half of one shelf it shared with Armada.  Now it has it's own shelf and has spread to the surrounding peg board.  Some of the items are so popular their spot on the shelf is bare within a few days.  People have tackle boxes overflowing with X Wing products.  We had to create an X Wing day because on Warhammer day the tables were all occupied with X Wing games.  I saw a couple of guys setting up a Warhammer battle last week and I realized that no one had done that on Saturday for at least a month if not two.  

 

While all that is anecdotal, we have a higher percentage of college aged kids who hang out at the store (I say kids because I am 45) than older people with more disposable income and cars to drag all the GW product around, it seems that we are seeing that in other stores as well.  So is it a trend?  Perhaps.  We shall see.  

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To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

I've bought two waves all three factions and only spent £150 that's my total spending on x-wing this year.

$800 seems excessive I've been playing two years now I haven't even hit the £500 Mark and own every ship in multiples of two or three.

I'd have to spend £500 to start playing 40k at the 2k level which is a standard game size, then I'd have to invest hours into building them then painting them, then in a year or two they'll release a new codex making my current army obsolete and require me to spend more cash.

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I dont think that means what you think it means.

 

Oh, I know exactly what it means, and no amount of Princess Bride references are going to let you palm wave my point, stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist: your argument is absurd; deal with it.

 

GWs 'army book' system IS one of its strengths.

 

Oh, it's one of it's strengths for Games Workshop, as a company.  It's a license for them to essentially print money, as it means that it's players need to completely update (e.g. pay for) their "rules" and army lists every few years, and it means they can change the lists to sell their extortionate latest models, or get rid of stock which otherwise hasn't sold, and continue to squeeze every last penny out of their disenfranchised fan base.

 

It's not a strength for players, because really who other than an utter madman wants to spend £100 on rules, only to then have to spend £100 on "the same rules but different" a couple of years later?

 

Another example (not that there's much point, since you've simply ignored the previous)

 

Codex: Imperial Knights came out in March 2014.  It was rendered obsolete and replaced in May 2015 - little over one year later.  That's absolutely disgusting.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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I posted to three Age of Sigmar "communities" yesterday to try and get enthusiastic about Games Workshop again.....yawn.....is that a grasshopper I hear.....yawn.....ooo, tumbleweed.....Zzzzz

Now Kingdom Death.

I've looked at two blogs with excited and enthusiastic players relating their games and how they just had to keep playing. Can't wait to game again. I was feeling their love for the game.

Just saying 3 Communities of "fans" VS 2 Blog Authors who just played their first game, and the two bloggers took me back to how I felt the first time I played Heroquest and Space Hulk.

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How many times can I use a single Shield Upgrade card?

Once.

If I want to use that card more than once, I need multiple copies of it because... reasons.

 

 

Maybe you have a different reason for playing the game than the rest of us.  I play the game to have fun and to challenge myself.  The limitation of making the best list I can with the cards and ships I have is part of that challenge. If all I had to do was throw money to have everything I wanted a lot of the fun would be gone.  I've played games where I played 100 pts of basic TIE fighters against some of the really cool ships with name characters and I won.  That victory was well earned and I savor it unlike victories where I brought the special list and bashed my way to victory because my opponent brought an inferior list.  I bought the big ships and the large ship because I WANTED THE SHIP not the two or three high power upgrade cards.  We have played those large ships against each other in 250 point battles which was a real fun game.  I got my butt handed to me, but the game was fun. 

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My "stop the madness" moment with my most recent foray into 40k came when I found myself asking local club members for 40k study tips. I.e. should I try making flashcards, coming up with some mnemonics, etc.

 

 

I've got a neurological condition that requires I take some meds that make me a bit scatterbrained.  Trying to remember my plan is hard enough without having to remember not only all of my own special rules but the special rules for my enemies army.  I played against Demons once....  Never again.  Too many rules, too many abilities...  

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I do not like your comparison. You bring 400pts as example. Format that is not part of standard play. Hell, even Epic is 300pts.So to paraphrase jokerkd. To follow you example of battle format. Say I want to play 3000pts battle. I want to equip all my tactical squads with grav guns. 2 per box x6. Just checked price. Tactical squad is 35euro. So I pay 210 euro just for core, where are the elites, heavy, HQ?Your example of 5 Raiders, sure it is expensive but a list of 16 Tie/Adv with title and ATC is murder.

Lol X-wing more expensive? Your codex does not give you all the upgrade options you will ever need.Cool I have this space marine tactical squad.... hmm I want to give them a lascannon as well..... **** I don't have a model with a lascannon because it doesn't come in the tactical squad box set even though according to my expensive codex book it's a possible upgrade for the sqaud.... oh well ill have to go out and spend a bunch more money on that single model. And before you say you can just proxy that Lascannon well how bout you just do that with TIE/X1 upgrade card and still have that tonne of money you have saved by playing X-wing instead of 40k

You are both, of course, correct. And I should have been more clear with my language.However, my point stands. I can take my single codex, and use it for an infinite number of points. I can apply the rules in it to as many units as I like.How many times can I use a single Shield Upgrade card?Once.If I want to use that card more than once, I need multiple copies of it because... reasons.Yes, buying a codex and army book is more expensive than buying a ship or three. But I never have to buy another 'rule' again, where with X Wing I need multiple copies of the rules. In fact, I need a copy for every time I want to use it. Imagine if I wanted to play a 1,000 point game. How many different upgrade cards would I need then? How much would that cost me? That's not an issue with a codex/army book style system.And it's not just 40K that I'm talking about here. Any wargame that uses a rulebook and written list/roster has a much better (and more affordable) system than X Wing. Kings of War was mentioned earlier: I paid about $20 for the gamers edition rulebook and it came with every upgrade and every rule I could ever want to add to my armies, no matter how large they are. And I don't need to buy another copy just because two of my units are using the same upgrade.
y

Your point doesn't stand at all. A codex is rules. You apply the X-Wing rule set to an infinite number of ships across all factions, your codex is only good for 1 faction. Shield upgrade is a modification card. You need one for every ship you use it on just like you need giant shoulder pads and a gun/sword for every space orc angel or whatever they are in 40k.

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I'm just going to use myself as an example for this anecdote, since my spending/collection/gaming habits tend to be roughly the same from one game to another:

 

As of the current wave, I have 101 X Wing Ships, including at least 1 of every large and huge ship (and in a couple cases, 2).  I did an analysis about a month ago, and, by shopping at my FLGS and using the standard 25% off coupon they offer, I have spent about $1,600 on X Wing in a little over 1 year.   This cost also includes the money I have spent on several starmaps, a couple dice blister packs, and my transportation/storage items (Ie, Plano love).

 

Now, I'm a late comer to 40k, and I "only" have 2 armies: Necrons and Blood Angels.  So let's add in my Beastmen to that list

 

My Blood Angels are my smallest force, and I started collecting them when my buddy wanted to pick up 'nids and I wanted a second army, so we split a couple of Deathstorm boxes and I got Blood Angels budget style. He also sold me some of his used BA stuff, but I have basically spent about $550 to get: 3 character models, 3 walkers, 2 tank vehicles, 65 infantry/large infantry models, the datacards, the codex, and the shield of Baal hard cover book.  That is what I actually spent, using FLGS discounts, etc.

 

My Necrons are my second largest force, having started collecting them before BA's.  I have 7 Characters, 55 infantry style models, 2 large vehicles, 2 walkers, and 11 large style infantry/jump infantry types, plus datacards and codex.  I have spent about $675 on this force. 

 

Now while I certainly have enough models to field 2,000 points with both my Blood Angels and Necrons, I don't even have close to fielding a "whatever army I wanted" style list. I have huge gaps in models relative to their codexes, and am not even close to collecting even 1 of everything for either of these 2 forces, let alone enough of everything to do a themed army. (Let's just field ALL tactical squads today for my BA's! I could never do that) I could, however, field a Tie Swarm, or a Z swarm (for both rebels and scum...you get the point).

 

So let's see what that looks like with a full on force: My Beastmen.  Now I have been collecting Beastmen for over 10 years, and prices have changed a lot in that time, but let's look at what I got:

 

16 metal minotaurs (I think they cost about $15 a piece back in the day): 240

3 Beastmen battalion boxed sets: 270

1 jabber: 70

1 centigor herd: 59

1 cygor: 54

1 doombull: 50

2 gorthor chariot models: 82

1 bestigor herd: 41

20 old metal bestigors: (about 10 blisters, I think): 90

6 tuskgor chariots:240

1 chaos warhound kit: 25

2 platic gor herds: 50

35 old 5th editional metal gor blisters (about 70 models in total): 280

2 Beastlord Char mdoels: 32

2 Khazraks: 40

4 generic shaman: 48

3 codexes (over 3 editions): 90

1 hard cover main rulebook: 80

40 old 5th edition metal ungor blisters (about 80 models in total): 175

This totals somewhere around $2,000. I bought a lot of this discount, used, and with coupons and such, so let's say $1,700

 

Now let's add the miscellaous hobby stuff:

Paints, Glues, Xactos, Brushes, and other expendable hobby items: $300

Hobby terrain stuff: $250

Dice, range rulers, cups, storage containers: $100

GW's plastic terrain plates (the 2' x 2' stuff): 250

That comes to another: $1,000

 

So to have 3 fully functional armies, plus terrain, peripherals, gaming aids and so forth for GW games is roughly (for me) around $3,900

 

$1,600 vs. $3,900

 

I am an all-out competitive super-gamer hobbyist/enthusiast, applying equally my passion for platic toys to FFG and GW, and those are pretty close to actual numbers I'm giving you.

 

Now for the value comparison:

 

I have probably played somewhere around 100 games of X Wing in the last year.  With those 101 ships, I can field almost any combination (and certainly, any reasonable combination) of all 3 currently available "army" factions.  I can also supply my opponent with stuff so that he doesn't have to purchase (or bring) his own stuff.

 

In the same time, I have played about 8 games of 40k.  (2 using blood angels, and maybe half a dozen using necrons)  This is not a reflection on 40k for being a 'bad' game, or demonstrative of any inherent biases I have against it.  Mostly this is due to time, transportation and general exhaustion/fatigue issues.  I have played 1 game of fantasy in the last year with Beastmen (and that is a reflection of fantasy/end times being a load of garbage, at least in my opinion)

 

X Wing: 100 games with $1,600 comes out to $16 per game.

GW: 12 games at $3,900 comes out to $243.75 per game.  (to be fair, this does not include painting/modelling/hobby time, which I do enjoy)

 
I'll concede, before anyone brings it up, that there are problems with both comparisons, for all the reasons other people have mentioned and more.  But even shifting by huge margins to account for those other 'problem factors', there is really no way to get around the cost and value differences between X Wing and 40k/fantasy.
Edited by Rocmistro

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I sure do love me some 40k hate threads.  But seriously, whats not to hate?  I mean you guys covered it all.  

 

perhaps ironically, the best thing to happen to 40k is all this hate.  As 40k and GW slowly bleed to death, games like X-wing, Armada, Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames of War etc....all hasten GWs own end times.  

 

GW needs to die, the IP needs a long nap then perhaps a reboot under a new company down the road.  Imagine if FFG could secure the whole IP and make 40k skirmish game like Imperial Assault?  (cause I hate needing/building terrain)

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Unlike, say, a Shield Upgrade. If I wanted to put a shield upgrade on five different ships, then I need five shield upgrade cards.

I'm pretty sure you could find 5 Shield Upgrade cards on eBay for less than the cost of one GW Codex.

And outside of the tournament scene - where the vast majority of both 40k and X-Wing games are played - it's highly unlikely your opponents will oppose you proxying cards via prinouts, slips of paper or whatever. Purchasing the actual cards is completely optional and the rules on those cards are freely available across the internet without the C&D lawsuit threats as is the case with almost everything GW puts out there.

Edited by surfimp

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I sure do love me some 40k hate threads.  But seriously, whats not to hate?  I mean you guys covered it all.  

 

perhaps ironically, the best thing to happen to 40k is all this hate.  As 40k and GW slowly bleed to death, games like X-wing, Armada, Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames of War etc....all hasten GWs own end times.  

 

GW needs to die, the IP needs a long nap then perhaps a reboot under a new company down the road.  Imagine if FFG could secure the whole IP and make 40k skirmish game like Imperial Assault?  (cause I hate needing/building terrain)

40k is whats not to hate. The game is an institution, it looks back on a long tradition. The problem is GW and only GW.

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