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Darkcloak

40k superseded?

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If you actually look at what you get for your money, X-Wing is not cheap. The average blister contains what?

 

1 x Ok quality pre-painted mini, base, stand, cardboard tokens and cards? 

 

 

But this is moving the goalposts. You initially asserted that X-Wing isn't actually cheaper than 40k. You then provided an example in which X-Wing was in fact significantly cheaper than 40k. You're now claiming that's irrelevant because you don't get much with your X-Wing purchase and that this means X-Wing isn't cheap.

 

The most expensive list possible is a red herring. Yes, you could spend $800 on a terrible tournament list if you really wanted to. So what? It might be interesting to compare that to the most expensive 40k tournament list possible, but still not really relevant, as neither have anything to do with the considerations of people who are making real purchasing decisions rather than engaging in a deliberately absurd exercise. 

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X-wing squads can vary in cost immensly. The cheapest you can build with something like core set and 2 expansion sets. The most expensive ones require cards from epic and large ships, aces packs, etc. I think even the most expensive competitive squad is half the price of the cheapest 40k army.

 

The $700 dollar squad is pretty much like buying a huge number of 40k boxes just for the bits or upgrades to use with other minis. Like getting a forge-world BT for an axe to use with a wraithlord...  That could easily go iabove $5000

Edited by LesserEvil

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As far as costs are concerned, yeah getting all the cards for the ideal squadron may cost a fair bit given the cards in the epic ships, but a player is left with a host of ships spread across three/five factions that can be flown wide an wide degree of variation.  For 40k to get the same amount of variety would cost a mint.

I also like the release schedule in X-Wing... for example, it's all TAU and soon the Horus Heresy set coming out. If one doesn't play either of those factions, there really isn't much of a need to purchase anything. Sure one may tool up and get new units for an existing army to counter the new release power creep induced meta army, but I like how pretty much everyone gets something new with each wave in X-Wing.

Edited by Scarloochie

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As far as costs are concerned, yeah getting all the cards for the ideal squadron may cost a fair bit given the cards in the epic ships, but a player is left with a host of ships spread across three/five factions that can be flown wide an wide degree of variation. For 40k to get the same amount of variety would cost a mint.

I also like the release schedule in X-Wing... for example, it's all TAU and soon the Horus Heresy set coming out. If one doesn't play either of those factions, there really isn't much of a need to purchase anything. Sure one may tool up and get new units for an existing army to counter the new release power creep induced meta army, but I like how pretty much everyone gets something new with each wave in X-Wing.

The tau release also included new white scar and ravenwing lists and a new model. Also during the same time fw released a new eldar book and models and a new space marine list. Not to mention all the Horus heresy stuff is usable in 40k for csm or any space marine legion. And fw also released a new knight this month. That's actually a lot for a one month period you were complaining about.

Regarding cost. I spend more on 40k then I do on xwing. However at least once every 3 months when a new xwing wave or mini wave comes out I'm still dropping at least $150. Neither is cheap and people who tell you otherwise is just being a fanboi.

Edited by Gungo

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If you actually look at what you get for your money, X-Wing is not cheap. The average blister contains what?

 

1 x Ok quality pre-painted mini, base, stand, cardboard tokens and cards? 

 

 

But this is moving the goalposts. You initially asserted that X-Wing isn't actually cheaper than 40k. You then provided an example in which X-Wing was in fact significantly cheaper than 40k. You're now claiming that's irrelevant because you don't get much with your X-Wing purchase and that this means X-Wing isn't cheap.

 

The most expensive list possible is a red herring. Yes, you could spend $800 on a terrible tournament list if you really wanted to. So what? It might be interesting to compare that to the most expensive 40k tournament list possible, but still not really relevant, as neither have anything to do with the considerations of people who are making real purchasing decisions rather than engaging in a deliberately absurd exercise. 

 

No it isn't moving the goal posts.

 

My current X-Wing list which costs around £250 is give or take the average for a semi-competitive list. It also has 4 ships. Buying the 1850 pt Necron list I used as an example could be about 20% cheaper if I shopped around. That army has a lot, lot, more usable models than 4.

 

So what's better value?

 

4 models that I'm going to use with another 6 lying gathering dust because all I wanted were some of the upgrade cards that came in the blisters; or 50 odd models of comparable size and better quality? 

 

The list posted by Randolph is probably, there or thereabouts, the most expensive list possible at 100 pts. Yes, it's an exaggerated example; but it's there to try and show that X-Wing, once you get past the entry point (and I say again if you don't buy from re-sellers), is NOT a cheap game. 

 

Cheers

Baaa

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As far as costs are concerned, yeah getting all the cards for the ideal squadron may cost a fair bit given the cards in the epic ships, but a player is left with a host of ships spread across three/five factions that can be flown wide an wide degree of variation. For 40k to get the same amount of variety would cost a mint.

I also like the release schedule in X-Wing... for example, it's all TAU and soon the Horus Heresy set coming out. If one doesn't play either of those factions, there really isn't much of a need to purchase anything. Sure one may tool up and get new units for an existing army to counter the new release power creep induced meta army, but I like how pretty much everyone gets something new with each wave in X-Wing.

The tau release also included new white scar and ravenwing lists and a new model. Also during the same time fw released a new eldar book and models and a new space marine list. Not to mention all the Horus heresy stuff is usable in 40k for csm or any space marine legion. And fw also released a new knight this month. That's actually a lot for a one month period you were complaining about.

 

Yup, I don't play marines or Tau, I like Xenos, namely Nids, Orks and Dark Eldar  :)  So yup skipping all the releases in that window. Sorry if the tone seemed like complaining but it's just a statement of how the releases are of not much interest for me. However funny how you brought in FW... now there's something pricey.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Geedub so much that I worked for them in a management capacity years ago. So despite how things have changed since Rogue trader days, I still like the hobby but the excitement, anticipation and gaming time once held for GW has been entirely replaced by X-Wing.

 

Edited by Scarloochie

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No it isn't moving the goal posts.

 

My current X-Wing list which costs around £250 is give or take the average for a semi-competitive list. It also has 4 ships. Buying the 1850 pt Necron list I used as an example could be about 20% cheaper if I shopped around. That army has a lot, lot, more usable models than 4.

 

So what's better value?

 

4 models that I'm going to use with another 6 lying gathering dust because all I wanted were some of the upgrade cards that came in the blisters; or 50 odd models of comparable size and better quality? 

 

 

You cannot treat "cheaper" and "better value" as though they're interchangeable. They're not. A $250 list doesn't stop being cheaper than a $450 list if the more expensive list has more models.

 

And you cannot only apply price reductions to one list and not the other; discounts on X-Wing products are much deeper than those found on GW products, so that only serves to expand the gap between the two. 

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Ok; cost for cost -

 

Here's a £253 army from GW, with Army Codex AND 40k Rulebook, add in paints and glue and we're looking at £265 - 

 

1 x Draigo

3 x Paladin boxes

2 x Interceptor boxes

1 x Dreadknight

1 x Codex Grey Knights

1 x Warhammer 40k Rulebook

 

Easily enough to make an 1850 pt army.

 

Yes, it's more expensive; but are you really trying to say that the 7 ships I need to put my 4 ship list on the table are better value?

 

Cheers

Baaa

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250 POUNDS is average for a competitive squad? 

 

Let's see:

A cheap competitive list, like BBBBZ = $65

A really expensive list, like Fel, vader, palpatine shuttle (which requires imperial raider, bounty hunter, a-wing and star viper cards, aces) is $200 going by Amazon prices.

Core set is $25

 

Based on this, I'd price most squadrons as between $100 and 225 unless you need multiple epic ships, and that number includes the starter. 

 

40k? Dark vengeance starter + dark angles codex is already around $150, and that's no army, much less a competitive one. Of course, some armies will be cheaper, but comparing the cheapest 40k army you can find with the most expensive reasonable X-wing squad is just bending reality.  

Edited by LesserEvil

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How many different lists can you make with that set of GW stuff vs how many different lists can you make with those 7 ships?

I'm guessing there's more value in the X-Wing ships as you can probably put together a second 100pt list with the leftover ships, but have no clue how GW lists and expansion packs work.

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Yes, it's more expensive; but are you really trying to say that the 7 ships I need to put my 4 ship list on the table are better value?

 

I am explicitly saying that X-Wing is cheaper. I am explicitly saying that better value has nothing to do with whether or not it's cheaper. If you want to have a separate discussion about value, knock yourself out. Just don't attempt to claim that X-Wing isn't meaningfully cheaper than 40k while you're at it.

 

Note: cheaper in this context means that you spend less money to play the game, not that the per-model cost is lower (or even relevant).

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Value is such a subjective term since folks value different things :)

One thing though is unless graced by a club, hobby god buddy, or FLGS that provides nice terrain and table surfaces that replicate the pretty pictures of an ideal 40k visual experience, the costs for getting something similar to what you see on the box rises a fair bit.  

I'm just glad there's so much choice now in terms of mini gaming.  

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The fact of the matter is this.  If you come into a gaming shop and want to start playing a wargame to start X Wing it costs $40.  To start a 500 point gang of Orks you need two squads of boys at $25 a box.  You need a Warlord at $20.  Then you need a couple trucks at $80 each.  You also need a basic set of rule books at $80 and you need an Ork Codex at $40.  You can just manage to run that as 500 points if you pump up the boys all the way.  $350 before you buy a paintbrush or jug of Waagh Green.  Call it around $50 for three or four jugs of paint, a couple of bottles of glue and a set of brushes.  Now in my book that's $400 to start up.  

 

That's a starter set and 24 individual small ships.  

 

That's the only real comparison in my mind.  Trying to say making a kick ass tournament list costs $X and comparing that to a 500 point list or a 1,000 point list for 40k is BS.  Not everyone want's to make the Ultimate 100 point Tournament List out of the game.  Heck, I may never play a tournament game, yet I've got at least one of every Empire ship including the REAL big one.  I've also got enough Ork hardware to field over 5000 points if I wanted to.  I'd say I still haven't spent as much on X Wing as I have on 40K.  

 

But even that isn't the real issue here.  We learned the basics for X Wing in one night.  We picked up all the little detail stuff, mostly through others saying "that's not how that works" within a couple months.  Now both my son and I are caught up and we play at a level that we could go to tournaments if we cared to.  We've been banging our heads against 40K for at least 3 years now.  I still get "Surprise! That's not how that sub rule of that works when applied to the case when orks play against tau."  It's frustrating to say the least.  We played Ork vs. Tyranids at least three Saturday's a month for the last two years and we still haven't got all the rules figured out.  

 

X Wing is simply more user friendly and less costly to a new player and a new player can get it down faster.  Everything else is meaningless jibber jabber.  Like the 7th Edition Rules for 40K....

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I don't care enough about the profit numbers or whatever but there is a more generic board games shop in my area that has a small selection of GW stuff Rpg books and X-wing products. The GW stuff was right in the back in a corner hiding behind a shelf of air fix kits and barricaded in with the rpg books. Though recently this dark dank corner that was once a temple of GW has in fact been superseded by X-wing and Armada and now the GW range is slashed to basically the main box sets and a few boxes of space marines living on a pathetic half shelf in front of some jigsaw puzzles.

 

So in my area I'm seeing something like this happening. It might be bias on my part because when I used to look for gw stuff I'm now looking for x-wing I dunno. Ill keep you all posted for when my local games workshop store turns into a dedicated FFG re-seller/board game cafe.

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I was in Manchester a few weeks ago we went into a store GW products have been reduced to two shelves behind the register, war machine still has a big display and x-wing is front and centre.

Heck the battletech alpha strike sets were more prominently displayed than 40k, I bought two mech packs that day.

We also went into the Manchester store and there were half a dozen people in there on a Saturday pretty sad given its a major city.

GW burnt bridges with the flgs and now the chickens have come back to roost, I hear the reps are getting desperate in some areas of merica to push stores to stock their stuff because they want to close the official store in that area but alot of places are not interested.

AoS has flopped so hard they are selling it at cost to get their money back as GW will only give credit and stores don't want to stock GW kits anymore.

And once the flgs turn on you you can kiss the merican market goodbye.

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The Kill Team variant seems to be doing alright at my LGS, because you don't need to spends piles of cash on tons of figures.

X-wing and that star trek one are also doing fine, same for warmahordes and malifaux.

 

They are already selling AOS as discount deals, but then again fantasy was dead at our store so it's not like AOS killed it of here.

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I keep hearing all this stuff about Age of Sigmar (AoS) flopping. Why is that? The rules? It looks like a more compact starter game/set at first glance than anything I've see for Warhammer. It does look neat, even though I'm never going to try it.(Painting figures has always been a turn-off for me; I don't mind assembling as I have Gundam Gunpla. Furthermore I'm not a fan of overly complicated rules.)

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I keep hearing all this stuff about Age of Sigmar (AoS) flopping. Why is that?

Basically, GW took 30 years of constant background development and flushed it. They destroyed the entire Warhammer worked and are basically starting over almost from scratch. This has SERIOUSLY pissed off a lot of the old guard. Whether or not the simplified rules are enough to bring in sufficient new blood to compensate for the veterans quitting, we really don't know yet. It has apparently been selling well in some areas, and terribly in others. We really need a couple years before we can start getting an accurate idea of the effect it is having.

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I'm not even sure AoS is flopping any more than fantasy was. I used to play at the biggest GW in the country, and it certainly seemed to me that there were more people playing AoS than I'd ever seen playing fantasy.

AoS can be fun. The problem for a lot of people is that it is not designed for competitive play at all.

I'm going to jump into the cost difference argument just to say that, now that my ravenwing are able to take (and abuse) grav guns, i wonder how many tac squads i would have to buy to equip my squads with 2 grav and a combi grav?

Is ATC in the raider a rip off? Well, yeah, but how many ATCs are in it? 4?

To fit 4 of my squads with grav, I'd need 8 tac squad boxes at AU $65!

Is that a fair comparison?

Edited by jokerkd

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My "stop the madness" moment with my most recent foray into 40k came when I found myself asking local club members for 40k study tips. I.e. should I try making flashcards, coming up with some mnemonics, etc.

 

I stepped back and realized that playing a game of sci-fi toy soldiers shouldn't be this difficult and I haven't gotten my models out again since. Subsequently I've collected a small Bolt Action army (great system) and am getting into Infinity as well. For me, both of those systems feature good rulesets with novel (by comparison to 40k) unit activation mechanics that really are so much more engaging (for me) than 40k. They also do a great job of streamlining the sort of complex rule interactions that 40k is simply rife with (40k's treatment of close combat with all its initiative steps, pile-in moves, challenges, invulnerable saves & etc etc is a perfect example - because doing that for three turns is just so much fun... ugh).

 

X-Wing is another one that's a wonderful game system. Focus on tactical maneuvering, deep list building options that allow many ways to create strong and unique lists, I could go on and on.

 

The bottom line is that there are simply far better options out there today than 25 years ago when I got involved with 40k for the first time. I'm so thankful for that and really having so much fun.

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X-Wing isn't even comparable to 40k in costs.

 

You don't have to buy a million models to field a basic army. It's possible to have a full and fun army with two models no problem. 

 

You don't have to spend 50 bucks on a rule book and then 50 more bucks on another rulebook. The one time the game has forced players to buy an updated version of the rules (Force Awakens core set with the new damage deck), it came with three more models and various game supplies at a cheaper price than any of the 40k rulebooks. 

 

You don't have to spend any money on paint, glue, files, etc. just to have your miniatures in presentable condition. 

 

You don't have to worry about your old models being nerfed into oblivion so you're encouraged to buy the shiny new models every couple years (See: Tyranid players and their Carnifexes). 

Edited by WingedSpider

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You don't have to spend 50 bucks on a rule book and then 50 more bucks on another rulebook.

I would just like to interject on this point: Once I have bought a codex, I have a copy of every special rule and upgrade I will ever need. I can even apply them multiple times to multiple units, simultaneously if I want. Unlike, say, a Shield Upgrade. If I wanted to put a shield upgrade on five different ships, then I need five shield upgrade cards.

So to have the equivalent number of rules and options, X Wing is much more expensive. Imagine having to buy enough upgrade cards to field any possible configuration of them out to say, I don't know, 400 points? That'd be like, five Raiders just to cover the TIE/X1 upgrade card...

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You don't have to spend 50 bucks on a rule book and then 50 more bucks on another rulebook.

I would just like to interject on this point: Once I have bought a codex, I have a copy of every special rule and upgrade I will ever need. I can even apply them multiple times to multiple units, simultaneously if I want. Unlike, say, a Shield Upgrade. If I wanted to put a shield upgrade on five different ships, then I need five shield upgrade cards.

So to have the equivalent number of rules and options, X Wing is much more expensive. Imagine having to buy enough upgrade cards to field any possible configuration of them out to say, I don't know, 400 points? That'd be like, five Raiders just to cover the TIE/X1 upgrade card...

 

 

Lol X-wing more expensive? Your codex does not give you all the upgrade options you will ever need.

 

Cool I have this space marine tactical squad.... hmm I want to give them a lascannon as well..... **** I don't have a model with a lascannon because it doesn't come in the tactical squad box set even though according to my expensive codex book it's a possible upgrade for the sqaud.... oh well ill have to go out and spend a bunch more money on that single model.

 

And before you say you can just proxy that Lascannon well how bout you just do that with TIE/X1 upgrade card and still have that tonne of money you have saved by playing X-wing instead of 40k

Edited by snargitz

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You don't have to spend 50 bucks on a rule book and then 50 more bucks on another rulebook.

I would just like to interject on this point: Once I have bought a codex, I have a copy of every special rule and upgrade I will ever need. I can even apply them multiple times to multiple units, simultaneously if I want. Unlike, say, a Shield Upgrade. If I wanted to put a shield upgrade on five different ships, then I need five shield upgrade cards.

So to have the equivalent number of rules and options, X Wing is much more expensive. Imagine having to buy enough upgrade cards to field any possible configuration of them out to say, I don't know, 400 points? That'd be like, five Raiders just to cover the TIE/X1 upgrade card...

 

I do not like your comparison. You bring 400pts as example. Format that is not part of standard play. Hell, even Epic is 300pts.

So to paraphrase jokerkd. To follow you example of battle format. Say I want to play 3000pts battle. I want to equip all my tactical squads with grav guns. 2 per box x6. Just checked price. Tactical squad is 35euro. So I pay 210 euro just for core, where are the elites, heavy, HQ?

Your example of 5 Raiders, sure it is expensive but a list of 16 Tie/Adv with title and ATC is murder.

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I would just like to interject on this point: Once I have bought a codex, I have a copy of every special rule and upgrade I will ever need. I can even apply them multiple times to multiple units, simultaneously if I want. Unlike, say, a Shield Upgrade. If I wanted to put a shield upgrade on five different ships, then I need five shield upgrade cards.

So to have the equivalent number of rules and options, X Wing is much more expensive. Imagine having to buy enough upgrade cards to field any possible configuration of them out to say, I don't know, 400 points? That'd be like, five Raiders just to cover the TIE/X1 upgrade card...

 

That's clearly not true.

 

You need the WH£40K rulebook, for a start.  £50 please (you'll need to replace it every few years, at a similar cost).

 

Then you need your army's codex.  That's another £30, please (you'll need to replace it every few years, at a similar cost).

 

And what if you want to use allied detachments or go unbound or do a themed army?

 

WH£40K rulebook (£50), Codex: Skitarri (£30), Codex: Cult Mechanicus (£30), Codex: Imperial Knights (£30) - that's over £100 before you've even bought any models to play with - and you'll need to replace them every few years, at a similar cost.

 

Other examples?  Sure.

 

WH£40K rulebook (£50), Codex: Craftworlds (£30), Codex: Dark Eldat (£30),  Codex: Harlequins (£30), Codex: Haemonculus Covens (£30)

 

WH£40K rulebook (£50), Codex: Astra Militarium (£30), Codex: Militarum Tempetus (£30), Codex: Imperial Knights (£30)

 

And the best part of these rulebooks?  Only 1/10th of the book is usually rules - the rest is fluff and pictures of the models themselves.  You're paying through the nose for a glorified catalogue.

 

Games Workshops enforced rules obsolescence is one of the reasons I quit the game.  I played two-three games with my Eldar army during 6th Edition.  Now I'd have to buy an entirely new rulebook and codex to play it again at a competitive level.  And replace all the models for which the rules have changed (i.e Wraithguard, which can no longer be used as troops).

Edited by FTS Gecko

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