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Darkcloak

40k superseded?

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I used to play warhammer fantasy for over 20 years, and since they brought out Age of Sigmar the appeal to me just nose dived. There are members down my gaming club who still hold the flame for warhammer 8th ed and I thought I would too, but it just didn't. I tried an intro game of x wing about three months ago and I'm so hooked,  

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This has been a very interesting read for me. I used to play 40K, Blood Bowl, Man O'War and Necromunda back in the early 90's and my early teens. What stopped me was winning a few national skateboarding contests and I began getting free product. Skateboarding consumed my life for about 16 years until I was screwed by my business partners and I hadn't painted or played any tabletop games in that timespan at all.

 

Won't go into it as I've outlined this in another thread about gaming and depression but at the age of 31 I was searching for something to fill my time with and I wanted to make sure I could play a game or two as I didn't want to get into modelling specifically. I wanted to embrace the whole hobby and enjoy the social aspect of gaming and meeting new people as well as being able to model/paint when I'm home alone. So I walked into my local Games Workshop to see how much it would cost me to get into 40K again. 

 

First thing I noticed was the lack of any other game systems such as Fantasy, Blood Bowl, Necromunda etc. Second thing I noticed was just how much everything cost. I mean sure it was never cheap back in the day but even as a teenager I could save some Birthday money and paper round money and build something to play with. To set myself up with an army for 40K, paints, brushes, glue, basing materials etc. was getting a bit silly for something I hadn't done in such a long time and wasn't sure I'd even really enjoy at that point. This led to me leaving GW and buying an X-Wing core set. A lot cheaper for a taster of war game/tabletop game and the pre-painted models meant it was JUST the core set I was buying so I could put the minis on a shelf as display pieces if I hated playing the game and I hadn't forked out for paint sets etc.

 

As it happens; I loved X-Wing. Joined the local gaming club and began collecting up all the toys. After a while I bought some paints etc and began trying my hand at repaints. Now I go to tournaments regularly, run a league at our local club, play Armada, IA and Batman Miniatures too. I get my hobby fix from my Batman mini's or the occasional X-Wing painting/conversion project.

Whilst none of these games are exactly "cheap"; the reason GW lost me as a customer and FFG/Knight Models now do have me is bar for entry was just too high for GW. Batman cost me £25 for a complete 150point crew, X-Wing core set was £30, Army Painter paint set was £70 and these were spread out purchases as opposed to one big hit on my bank balance. Obviously I've expanded my collections since that point but it was that sheer level of blind investment and commitment GW seemed to want that I wasn't comfortable with. The fact was that I had no idea about any other miniatures games out there other than GW properties and X-Wing as we only have a GW in Southampton, no FLGS, so I'd have definitely been sucked in if they had a sensible entry point.

Since my return to war gaming I've seen many threads like this one and had many conversations with (often former) disgruntled GW customers and it makes me glad I made the right choices but also really demonstrates my initial feelings about GW after a 16 hiatus were actually pretty close to the mark. If I'd have dropped a few hundred in GW to invest into 40K; my force would probably now be obsolete and in need of replacement! The AoS debates I see raging are just further confirmation something is going very wrong with that company and it's relationship with it's customers. I'm glad I steered clear of GW although I'd love to smash a few games of Blood Bowl in sometime :P Really seems like the mighty has fallen during my absence and other companies are doing a better job.

 

Necromunda or Blood Bowl would be some perfect relatively cheap entry points for potential GW customers but they show no interest in supporting these games where as X-Wing has a near perfect entry point and FFG provide excellent balance and support for the game. So now if I want some fast paced games of out manoeuvring I play X-Wing, if I want to play something narrative and character driven I play IA campaigns, if I want to think hard and play a more strategic game I play Batman or Armada. So long GW and thanks for all the fish. Or lack of...

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Is 40K easier or more difficult than X-wing? I assume the latter, which kinda means that X-Wing is more inviting for new players.

 

I'd measure the total volume of the rules as at least 4 times that of X-wing.  It will take you a long time to fully master the rules in the rulebook and longer time still to understand what each of the many various armies can do. So yes, x-wing is much more inviting. 

 

Unfortunately, the complexity of the rules does not lead to a more "strategic" experience, it's just a mess of overlapping modifiers, random tables, exceptions and whatnot. At the end of the day, he who brings more cheese usually wins. 

 

I think the only people I could recommend 40k to are painters who do not play games at all and like sci-fi settings. In that case, the minis really are great. Unfortunatelly, they are also expensive (and GW increase prices regularly despite the fact they're already insanely high).

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You know, I'm not much for anime either; in fact it usually makes me grouchy.

 

If I had to count one thing against Infinity it would be its animesque feel. But even against my better nature I still like them because, dude.

 

Dude.

 

They make the best space-knights I've ever seen.

 

280257-0361_2.jpg

 

The badassery epicness realness ..... He's got his cape flowing in the wind inside of a space-ship for crying out loud. That's gotta be worth something?

Edited by OneKelvin

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You know, I'm not much for anime either; in fact it usually makes me grouchy.

 

If I had to count one thing against Infinity it would be its animesque feel. But even against my better nature I still like them because, dude.

 

Dude.

 

They make the best space-knights I've ever seen.

 

280257-0361_2.jpg

 

The badassery is real with this one.

Looks almost perfect for SW RPG, but overall their design direction leaves much to be desired. Someone should tell the designers Evangelion and SAC are supposed to be ironic and not be taken at face value.

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See, not a fan. If anything I prefer the look of Anvil industries stuff, or pre heresy MKIII power armour.

 

I like Infinities sexy nuns tho. (But I like sororitas more).

£50 a squad though.

 

SoB are like bretonians no major updates in the last decade a few half hearted codexes but largely left to rot which is a big shame, if they'd been done in plastic i'd of collected them but the metals were just too expensive even back in 2nd ed when they were released.

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X-Wing is growing in popularity; absolutely no doubt about that. And a big part of that is the straight out of the box gaming experience it provides. Great rules, and ok quality pre-painted miniatures.

 

But is it cheap in comparison to 40k? If you only buy the bits you need from online re-sellers or proxy cards then yes; definitely. However, if you prefer to buy all of the ships you need to build your 100 pt squad use Randolph's Han Shopped First calculator to see how much you're deluding yourself.

 

Is X-Wing outselling GW products like 40k? Who knows. FFG are an American Subsidiary of the French Games Company Asmodee, and as they publish their annual returns in America; they are not legally obliged to break their sales down into component parts. So whilst it may be entirely reasonable to guess that X-Wing makes up a huge chunk of their profits; unless you're an FFG accountant and are prepared to spill your guts on these here forums; I'm afraid it's all speculation.  

 

Will Asmodee break down their annual return into component parts so that we can find out exactly how much is generated by X-Wing? Who knows, possibly, but it's more likely it'll be FFG's annual contribution to overall profits that'll be published. 

 

As for GW profits getting smaller? Either this is lies, or that's just not true. Sorry to disappoint all of you GW haters, but not only are they holding their own; their profits have risen; albeit very, very modestly.

 

I probably won't be here in 25 years; but I'm pretty much guessing that neither will X-Wing miniatures. It'll be a nostalgic footnote in whatever passes for the interweb in the future.

 

Cheers

Baaa 

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Dude,2 grand on X-wing, for literally EVERY COMBINATION OF ANYTHING IN EPIC vs the same 2 grand for 40K (Entry level army, maybe apoc depending on faction). is incomparable.

 

The Annual report was a good read though.

I can buy and put a fully legal 1850pt Necron Army on the table for about £450 - GW prices; a lot cheaper if I buy elsewhere.

 

My current 100pt list for X-Wing using Randolph's calculator is about £250.

 

Not that cheap when you get down to the bones of it.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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How the heck did you run a 100 point list that high? I mean I get X-wing is notably more expensive in the UK but holy balls.

 

at $20 an expansion taxes in if i ran 8 academy pilots just as expansion pack ties that's $160CAN (so 80 quid UK basically)

 

1850 points is kind entrya level, and roughly $900 can. Now add the rulebooks, codexes etc. THEN go ahead and add the overheads, you know - terrain, paint, time to paint.. All these completely optional in IA and x-wing

 

Now infinity and my favourite 40k's (mordheim, Necro, 1st ed and killteam) all require buttloads of terrain - but that's fine, you can make your own, buy cheap stuff, whatever. But it's there.

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You know, I'm not much for anime either; in fact it usually makes me grouchy.

 

If I had to count one thing against Infinity it would be its animesque feel. But even against my better nature I still like them because, dude.

 

Dude.

 

They make the best space-knights I've ever seen.

 

280257-0361_2.jpg

 

The badassery is real with this one.

Looks almost perfect for SW RPG, but overall their design direction leaves much to be desired. Someone should tell the designers Evangelion and SAC are supposed to be ironic and not be taken at face value.

 

 

SAC as in the Ghost in the Shell series? What about that series's aesthetic was supposed to be taken ironically? 

 

That said, who makes the best miniatures, aesthetically, is going to be personal preference. There are parts of the Infinity range I like, but the trend of '4 tough looking, ready for action guys and 1 woman posing for pin-up art' in a lot of the boxes is annoying, Malifaux feels like it's trying to hard, and I just don't generally like the Warmahordes steampunk-ish styling at all. I am a bit biased as I like the 40k setting and much of the Imperial design aesthetic, and the mechanicum and Tau, even if some things go into that 'trying too hard' territory *cough*spacewolves,taustormsurge*cough*.

 

In terms of actually casting quality, detail, ease to work with, and the like, I've not really seen anything that comes close to GW's most recent stuff, at least in regard to plastic.

Edited by Otacon

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How the heck did you run a 100 point list that high? I mean I get X-wing is notably more expensive in the UK but holy balls.

 

at $20 an expansion taxes in if i ran 8 academy pilots just as expansion pack ties that's $160CAN (so 80 quid UK basically)

 

1850 points is kind entrya level, and roughly $900 can. Now add the rulebooks, codexes etc. THEN go ahead and add the overheads, you know - terrain, paint, time to paint.. All these completely optional in IA and x-wing

 

Now infinity and my favourite 40k's (mordheim, Necro, 1st ed and killteam) all require buttloads of terrain - but that's fine, you can make your own, buy cheap stuff, whatever. But it's there.

 

Buying everything you need; which would be a Core set as well would put your cost up. And everyone needs a core set to get those shiny new damage cards.

 

Unless, as I pointed out, you buy individual components from re-sellers. And £250 really isn't that bad, Randolph got this.

 

The example army included the Codex and Rulebook. And I don't really need paint, but at a couple of pounds a pot, it's going to last a long time.

 

EDIT: Just put your 8 Academy Tie list into the calculator and the cheapest you could get it for is about $119 USD; around $156 CAD?

 

 

Baa, do you by any chance work for Games Workshop?

 

No. 

 

Cheers

Baaa

Edited by Baaa

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In my example core sets would actually REDUCE the price funnily enough, but yes you could run it up with some pretty specific combinations, and fine. Necrons... bronze, silver, iron, ink and black spray paint - which GW sells the bestest. Still though GW buy in is way more expensive.

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In my example core sets would actually REDUCE the price funnily enough, but yes you could run it up with some pretty specific combinations, and fine. Necrons... bronze, silver, iron, ink and black spray paint - which GW sells the bestest. Still though GW buy in is way more expensive.

It is, but once you've reached a certain point with an army, it becomes a lot cheaper to maintain. That's why GW don't like grumpy old 40k players like me, I only pick up what I fancy.

 

X-Wing will be the same. Once you reach a certain point with your collection, you'll be able to buy a lot less to maintain it.

 

Don't know if you saw this; I added it to my post when you were posting.

 

EDIT: Just put your 8 Academy Tie list into the calculator and the cheapest you could get it for is about $119 USD; around $156 CAD?

 

Cheers

Baaa

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Academy pies are around $15 bucks plus tax here. I rounded up to 20. 20X8 = $160. Which equates to roughly 80 british pounds. But yeah, after your HQ, troops and nastiness, you only need the smallish things. $110 centurions ring a bell... $160 knights...

Edited by DariusAPB

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Academy pies are around $15 bucks plus tax here. I rounded up to 20. 20X8 = $160. Which equates to roughly 80 british pounds.

 

The calculation I used was using Core Sets.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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I heard from a X-Wing mate the other day that both GW titles (40K and Fantasy) have dropped out of the Top 5 of most played wargames. Didn't't surprise me at all.

Haha no

Fantasy has been out of the top 5 for over a year but 40k is still number 1 in sales and number of players by a mile. At least according to all reports which are ibased on distributors and sales numbers.

Sales numbers? Like money spent or units moved?

There are two different numbers we go by.

There is a yearly distributors report which has 40k as the largest miniture game by units sold.

And then there was the fiscal yearly reports. Gw is publicly traded and releases a breakdown, ffg had a breakdown when it sold to asmodii less then a year ago. And gw sales numbers were nearly double that of ffg entire catalog of products. Both units and $$$ Xwing is still far behind. However xwing is still growing whereas 40k sales has plateau'd many years ago.

Here is he spring 2015 report from distributors

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/state-of-the-tabletop-industry-spring-2015.html

However ffg had a stellar year last year with its armada release last year and imperial assault release so I expect thier sales numbers to have gone up however asmodii doesn't break down thier products in thier fiscal reports so the only numbers to go by in the future will be the distributors report next spring 2016. However 40k is still number one by all accounts.

I'll be surprised if armada holds the number 3 spot in that report considering it had a heavy sale boost by an early 2015 release.

Edited by Gungo

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I can buy and put a fully legal 1850pt Necron Army on the table for about £450 - GW prices; a lot cheaper if I buy elsewhere.

 

My current 100pt list for X-Wing using Randolph's calculator is about £250.

 

Not that cheap when you get down to the bones of it.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

I'm not following. In your prior post you asked "Is it really cheap compared to GW?" You're now providing a comparison in which the X-Wing list is 55% as expensive as the 40k list and concluding that no, X-Wing is not that cheap.

 

If just over half the cost isn't cheap in comparison, what would be?

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I can buy and put a fully legal 1850pt Necron Army on the table for about £450 - GW prices; a lot cheaper if I buy elsewhere.

 

My current 100pt list for X-Wing using Randolph's calculator is about £250.

 

Not that cheap when you get down to the bones of it.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

I'm not following. In your prior post you asked "Is it really cheap compared to GW?" You're now providing a comparison in which the X-Wing list is 55% as expensive as the 40k list and concluding that no, X-Wing is not that cheap.

 

If just over half the cost isn't cheap in comparison, what would be?

 

 

If you actually look at what you get for your money, X-Wing is not cheap. The average blister contains what?

 

1 x Ok quality pre-painted mini, base, stand, cardboard tokens and cards? 

 

The list that Randolph posted costing just over $783 is a 4 ship list. That's right 4. The cost of the buying the necessary ships to get the upgrades on that list (if you don't buy them individually from online re-sellers) is what pushes X-Wing well outside the bounds of being a cheap game.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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Seems everytime I gather up the time and space to get started on my nid army... a new Wave arrives at the store :)  

Then I buy several of the ships in the wave... read forum posts, watch batrep vids... play of games at the FLGS and have a bucket of fun.

Then the pile of sprues is forgotten once more... 

 

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