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Darkcloak

40k superseded?

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There was this one miniatures game called AT-34 much like the style of Rouge Trader. It used to be in Europe only and unpainted. The creator had to sell to a local publisher to keep the product going and there were some moves that pretty much stunted the product growth. The first was the move to fully assembled pre-painted models which frustrated it European customers, pretty much all the customers that they had. There were a couple of other things such as model quality and stiff competition when released to US markets but to sum it all up this game didn't go far.

 

AT-43 didn't succeed in the States because we couldn't GET any. It was hugely in demand for months and Rackham simply couldn't get any product over here for people to buy, so they started playing other stuff. By the time they got their production issues sorted out the game had starved to death, all the stores stopped even trying to carry it and nobody was willing to try playing it until it was proven that it was going to succeed. Of course, by that time Rackham was on the verge of bankruptcy and there was nothing that could be done to save it.

 

Would still like to find a use for all my Karman miniatures. For a while I wanted to proxy them as battlesuits in a Tau army, figured they would fit aesthetically with Kroot, but could never find chimpanzees with rayguns to use as Fire Warriors. Too late now though.

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The strangest thing about 40k vs X-wing is the absurd statement that they are not in competition with each other. There are just too many people that have turned away from 40k to play X-wing or armada (or both)

I get that FFG pays license to GW so can't really be considered the enemy, but it's playerbase is growing much faster in my area (where we have 4 GW stores all within an hours drive from each other)

I hope someday soon FFG (or any other gamer oriented company) gets to buy out a bankrupt GW and turns it back into a gamer oriented company

Well yes and no. X-wing is competing against Warhammer as a table top miniatures game but as a hobbyist model X-wing clearly isn't. Now yes X-wing is taking a lot of business from GW in the form of their table top miniatures game but as for customers who want to assemble and paint models FFG isn't catering to that category. As I said in a previous post FFG has no problem selling a model to a customer who want to paint or even convert it but they are not selling it in parts. All the models that FFG sells will be fully assembled and painted. Which works even better for the game aspect of X-wing as you find some gamer are not that interested in building their army/squadron/fleet as much as they are interested in playing a game with cool looking miniatures on the table. 

 

Now I think the big question is can GW survive on the Model hobbyist aspect alone? If all of a sudden GW was to stop printing rule books, codexes, rule supplements, and other game supplies; and go straight for paint, models, and painting and modeling supplies, will it still turn a profit? Best answer is probably too soon to tell, not as big as its hay days before Privateer Press released their Warmachine line and GW was predominantly the table top miniature company. Not to mention 3D printing is a thing which will drop the so called "premium price point" GW has been seeking (and passed) in the past few years. Not unrealistic though after all there are many companies that sell only models and modeling supplies (often adopted by Warhammer players) and have little to no rule book or competitive game support.

 

So yes X-wing has taken a lot of business from GW but as far as FFG business models go it won't take all of GW business. That will be taken up by other factors.

Edited by Marinealver

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Yeah codex fluff is garbage. I meant things like heresy books and ravenwing trilogy

Some of the HH is really good like thousand sons, others like the burning of Prospero is garbage and I say that as a space wolves player.

The series is hit and miss and they started dragging it out once they realized how popular it was.

The two part dark angel book added very little they couldn't of fit in one book, the assassin one was also padding as was the battle for the abyss book.

I stopped reading them when I stopped playing I refuse to give GW any money.

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...

Hell you could buy every AoS book and be no wiser about the world because their IP paranoia prevents them giving and info in advance in case another company makes a model first.

Considering that involves a lawsuit they just lost in a manner where they had to pay. Yup that is a thing now. US and international patent laws don't make that any easier. Patent trolls is not just a US problem copyright pirates are an international thing. Although it is harder for them to sue in countries that have lax copyright laws, but that makes it easy to come up with a copycat product then get it patented in a country with aggressive copyright laws to exploit and begin the lawsuit grab for cash.

Edited by Marinealver

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Are there any other GW players out there and if so, how do you feel about your hobbies and if you had to pick one which one would it be?

 

Hmm....  A regular Sophie's Choice there.....

 

X-Wing.

 

Faster set up and tear down.  A sane movement and combat phase (I invented something like that for GURPS and Pathfinder role playing games, Faster move later and attack sooner so of course I like it.).  A better ratio of dollars to play opportunities.  Drop $40 to see if you like it instead of $500.  Not having to paint makes it nice, not that I don't plan to eventually set up and customize a lot of my fleet.  I AM an Ork at heart after all.  Also being able to carry several thousand points worth of forces in a tackle box whereass the trunk of my car is taken up with my Orks.  I'm an unrepentant kitbasher and have a lot of rolling hardware for my boyz to charge with.  Lastly I think X-Wing has the edge because while spamming out eight Black Squadron TIEs is a reliable win list I can still have a chance running a Decimator, a pair of Interceptors and two or three standard TIEs.  Wanna win with Orks, Green Tide.  Its about the only list that is able to kick butt with the new rules.  I like machines and running those lists gets my butt kicked.   

 

My son and I play a lot of X-Wing and not as much 40K anymore.  It's just easier for us to play a quick 100 point game in X-Wing while a small 500 to 1000 point 40K game is way too much prep and play time.  More often than not even when I'm winning I just want it to be over.  

 

Just my 2 centi-creds on the matter.

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I have a decent collection of 40k stuff and have spent a disturbingly large number of hours converting and painting minis, but I never played it that regularly.  I discovered X-Wing fairly recently and have been loving it.  At this point I've played more total games of X-Wing than I ever did of 40k.  The big factors for me are:

  • Quick games.  Easy setup and cleanup, quick play.  Faster games means it's also far easier to play a casual game here or there and not have to make a big event out of it.
  • Tighter rules and balance.  FFG doesn't always get things right, but they make corrections and keep the meta diverse, and the rules are elegant and clear.  It's not that 40k is horrible at those things, but IMO it's not nearly at the same level as X-Wing.
  • Far lower investment -- primarily in time, e.g. painting -- required to get involved or to try out new lists.

I love the idea of 40k (and the art and universe), but in practice I found it a hard game to play and enjoy.

 

Other wargames I've spent a lot of time playing include Battletech and (original) D&D minis.  So maybe I just have a thing for small-skirmish-scale wargames with list building and tactical movement.

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I have played 40K since 2nd ed, and still enjoy it. That said, I haven't played a 40K tournament for over 3 years, because any semblance of balance has gone, and there are just too many different dataslates, expansions etc to ever be able to keep up to date with my limited hobby/gaming time. I still play socially, but I am selling the Guard I had accumulated for a cool coverted army (8th Army theme) and considering doing away with the Orks too (Afrika Korp theme). It's a shame, they would have been fun.

 

I was really bummed when they axed Fantasy. AoS isn't bad as such, but it isn't Fantasy, and I really enjoyed playing my Orcstralian Army. Going to try Kings of War.

 

X-Wing isn't a replacement for either of these games, but it does satisfy my fill for competitive gaming. I have placed/won some smaller local tournaments, and the games club I run at school love it. Bit sad when I have to explain who Luke Skywalker and Han Solo are to the kids though... :(

 

Actually, Bolt Action might end up replacing 40K in my games bag.

 

RoV

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I have played 40K since 2nd ed, and still enjoy it. That said, I haven't played a 40K tournament for over 3 years, because any semblance of balance has gone, and there are just too many different dataslates, expansions etc to ever be able to keep up to date with my limited hobby/gaming time. I still play socially, but I am selling the Guard I had accumulated for a cool coverted army (8th Army theme) and considering doing away with the Orks too (Afrika Korp theme). It's a shame, they would have been fun.

 

I was really bummed when they axed Fantasy. AoS isn't bad as such, but it isn't Fantasy, and I really enjoyed playing my Orcstralian Army. Going to try Kings of War.

 

X-Wing isn't a replacement for either of these games, but it does satisfy my fill for competitive gaming. I have placed/won some smaller local tournaments, and the games club I run at school love it. Bit sad when I have to explain who Luke Skywalker and Han Solo are to the kids though... :(

 

Actually, Bolt Action might end up replacing 40K in my games bag.

 

RoV

 

You mean, there are kids who don't know who...

 

Huh. 

 

I really hope that little soccer-droid is good at public awareness; else we might be in some trouble long-term.

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Wow this typic has three pages of people who have left 40k or have drastically reduced their play in the past two years, and just in about nine hours, that should tell you something.

Me I have no idea how many x-wing games I've played this year, or last year but in that same time I've played four 40k games, and I really have no desire to play anymore.

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40k vaguely appeals to me, but the prices are nope tier and so is the time and skill it requires to assemble and paint. After playing Heroscape and X-Wing I simply wouldn't be able to play without painting them.

I'd also spend my entire time playing wishing that my units were /actually/ Colonial Marines and that my opponent's figures were /actually/ xenomorphs that I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.

Someone taught me how to play Warmachine and I've played a few games of it and it's fun, but I hate the game's theme with a passion. That ugly weird steampunk/sci-fi/fantasy/horror theme is really dumb and the guy in the black button up flame shirt trying to explain why it's actually good when I've told him I hate fantasy and steampunk themes 10 minutes ago was really annoying.

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Long time 40k/BFG/Space Hulk/Mordheim player. I quit after 6th because it wasn't fun anymore.

My friends and I were never super competitive, but we do know the basics of good list vs bad list. In 6th we got to the point where we had to have discussions about what army we were going to take because it would just invalidate certain build types.

I know GW say they are a miniatures company over a game company but that just shows me they didn't understand their customer base. If they can't/don't want to do the game rules themselves they could outsource it to another company with a proven track record.

Who knows, maybe they already know a games company familiar with their universe.

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40k vaguely appeals to me, but the prices are nope tier and so is the time and skill it requires to assemble and paint. After playing Heroscape and X-Wing I simply wouldn't be able to play without painting them.

I'd also spend my entire time playing wishing that my units were /actually/ Colonial Marines and that my opponent's figures were /actually/ xenomorphs that I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.

Someone taught me how to play Warmachine and I've played a few games of it and it's fun, but I hate the game's theme with a passion. That ugly weird steampunk/sci-fi/fantasy/horror theme is really dumb and the guy in the black button up flame shirt trying to explain why it's actually good when I've told him I hate fantasy and steampunk themes 10 minutes ago was really annoying.

Yeah, never cared for the missionaries of Warmachines. You play the game you like I play the game I like. I don't care if it has a better rule set or more affordable business model or more players. I can find enough players for the game I like I will play it. If I don't like it I won't play it.

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Am I the only person in these parts who has never player 40k and/or Warhammer?  To be honest, I have only a vague idea of what they are anyway.  The thing that got me hooked on X-Wing (aside from the Star Wars aspect) is that I consider my ships to be mini RPG-type characters.  I can give them skills and gear to suit the goal of the group.

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Am I the only person in these parts who has never player 40k and/or Warhammer? To be honest, I have only a vague idea of what they are anyway. The thing that got me hooked on X-Wing (aside from the Star Wars aspect) is that I consider my ships to be mini RPG-type characters. I can give them skills and gear to suit the goal of the group.

I'm absolutely sure you're not the only one, but this thread will attract we disenfranchised players, who cannot wait to tell our stories of heartbreak and betrayal. Trust me, you're better off here.

Edited by Sekac

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Quit after 3rd edition, i.e. the last edition with proper Chaos Space Marines.

 

X-wing's nice in that I've got more people playing it locally, but I'm still painting my figs and it still costs a substantial amount of money per fig, so I feel that's kind of a wash. Good core mechanics and solid models though...

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Am I the only person in these parts who has never player 40k and/or Warhammer?  To be honest, I have only a vague idea of what they are anyway.  The thing that got me hooked on X-Wing (aside from the Star Wars aspect) is that I consider my ships to be mini RPG-type characters.  I can give them skills and gear to suit the goal of the group.

 

Am I the only person in these parts who has never player 40k and/or Warhammer? To be honest, I have only a vague idea of what they are anyway. The thing that got me hooked on X-Wing (aside from the Star Wars aspect) is that I consider my ships to be mini RPG-type characters. I can give them skills and gear to suit the goal of the group.

I'm absolutely sure you're not the only one, but this thread will attract we disenfranchised players, who cannot wait to tell our stories of heartbreak and betrayal. Trust me, you're better off here.

 

 

Well for many people, X-wing will be the first entry into table top miniature gaming for several reasons. It is more affordable to get a standard army/squadron list and by standard I don't mean competitive but at a minimum tournament legal. Also with FFG focusing on the gaming aspect having fully assembled and painted miniatures making it easier for new and current players to expand their options this is the easiest Table Top game to get into.

 

So as far as this being your first table top miniature game I can assure you you will not be alone. As for this thread being a thread where many former and current 40K players can post their (understandably so) grievances with GW. Yeah there will be a few, but if you don't understand what those players are talking about then there really is no need for you to concern yourself with them as you are not playing Warhammer you are playing X-wing.

 

Nostalgia is almost like rose tinted glasses. You remember all the things that were good about the past and tend to forget about the frustrations because who really want to revel in the sour moments of life. I mean unless someone was really awful no one ever says something bad about the person in their funeral. Yeah I played Warhammer 40,000 and had fun doing it to include painting and assembling models and getting my inept horde guard army slaughtered by the dozens in a failed attempt to capture points. That doesn't mean I want to go back to it, I'm just fine with X-wing, Netrunner, and Hearthstone. Come to think of it there are many fond memories of past that I cherish but never want to go back even if I could.

 

Caution Language

2015-10-20-Strip_403_Life_After_EAS_Nost

Edited by Marinealver

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Am I the only person in these parts who has never player 40k and/or Warhammer?  To be honest, I have only a vague idea of what they are anyway.  The thing that got me hooked on X-Wing (aside from the Star Wars aspect) is that I consider my ships to be mini RPG-type characters.  I can give them skills and gear to suit the goal of the group.

You're not the only one. I still have some warhammer fantasy goblins and skeletons from those I bought for minis for d&d campaigns, but the tabletop game I grew up playing ( not including minis for battles in rpg's) was Battletech. I moved to video games for years, but have come back to tabletop because here you're less likely to have a twelve year old screaming at you about what they did to your mother last night after you destroy something of theirs in the game (let's face it, online gaming has become toxic in some area). I mean, the point of a game is to have a good time, right?

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It's almost as if Episodes VII-IX didn't exist/is planned to attract a fresh audience. ???

Howe many waves did we get out of the OT? Two? Three? I don't expect to see much more from the new movies.Will the new movies stimulate a heap more EU ships? Maybe, but part of the problem with X Wing already is that it's chock full of EU ships that aren't immediately recognisable as Star Wars. I'm a pretty big Star Wars fan, and I'd never even heard of half of the ships in X Wing until I started playing this game.And also consider that the old EU has had 30 years to grow and develop, while the new EU is only what, two years old? I just don't see FFGs release schedule being able to keep the same head of steam up, and I wonder (and worry) about what that means for the game in the next two decades or more.Personally, I want to see the game become like any of the many historical games out there: A complete rule set, a complete miniature range, that is able to sustain sales and stand on it's own two feet without needing a constant influx of new waves to stimulate sales. But I honestly think that X Wing sales will slow down in the next few years, and they will not be able to keep the licence. It'll go to someone else who will release a new game with different miniatures that will start a new game, and repeat the whole process again.
I Mostly agree with your post, however I think their is some hope that x-wing will be around for a long period of time.

The best thing any business can do to is to satisfy existing consumers while bringing in new ones to grow the product at the same time. Looking at that statement, as far as existing/new consumers of x wing are concerned, I think there is a few thing FFG could do to satisfy these two requirements.

1. As for us already playing x-wing, I think the answer to maintaining that base is to slowly evolvgamee game without completely changing the core experience. We've seen through the waves large ships,the sensor upgrade, a new faction, and a new core set to name a few enhancements. Keep adding things here and there will slowly evolve the game, hopefully for the better. The key is to try and maintain the simplicity and ease of play of x-wing without overcomplicating it while adding new things, a difficult task but not impossible.As for the statement about EU ships I also have not heard of ships like the hwk-290 or the k-wing before this game, however I bought them anyways as it didn't matter to me as I welcomed them as a new addition to one of my favorite games, even though I wouldn't have known they were star wars ships before hand.

2. As for attracting new players, I dont have a business model to necessarily bring them into the game. I do think the new movies will help, but even more than that I think the fading stigma/stereotypes of board gaming/ miniatures will go along way. I had a friend who's a huge star wars movie fan come to my house about two years ago and watch a friend and I play x-wing. Although he didn't say it quite this bluntly, his response was, "you guys are dorks for playing that." Fast forward two years and that same friend joins us to play x-wing, he even has his own collection. I think board gaming/miniatures is very much on its way to becoming even more entrenched in the mainstream(I'm sure that statement scares some people!). When I was a kid in the early 90s video games were only cool if you were around 5-16 years old, anything older than that was considered "not cool". Today everyone plays games whether your 8 or 80, and the industry is very large. I feel the same thing is happening in the board game/ miniatures scene. I dont have the source, but I recently read that the industry was set to break a sales record, something in the billions. If it continues to grow at that rate, you will see new players annually, especially with a brand name like Star Wars.

Edited by Evenflow30

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I never played 40k. It seemed interesting, but the expensive price-tag kept me off.

 

I don't plan on playing it, but I was wondering what's the learning curve like?

 

X-Wing, nor 40k are games you can play alone, so you need other players to play it.

There will come a time when the playerbase for either (or both) will diminish and you'll have to coax new players into the game. If you have a large collection yourself, others won't have to invest, which makes it easier for them to try to learn the game and play with you, but how hard is the game itself?

X-wing isn't that complex to teach, but how's that with 40k?

I've got the impression that X-wing is easier, cheaper and quicker and because it's Star Wars will appeal to new players more than 40k.

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I'm a mouldy old 40k player from way back in the days of 2nd Edition, and Fantasy was soon after. Bought pretty much every spinoff that GW released during the 90s and early 00s.

 

What put the dampener in my tabletop playing was having kids. That said, when my first girl was born there was already a new edition of both Warhammers coming out, and I had no interest in them. Power creep bothered me only a little, but Price creep was atrocious, and every Edition basically worked their way towards destroying previous builds. Kids were just a good excuse, really. I played a little WarmaHordes during early kid times, but not much.

 

X-Wing, though? That's my way back into tabletop. The kids are old enough for a start, but; it doesn't cost an arm and a leg (though I'll be spending a fair bit I expect); the hobbyist aspect isn't a massive (and essential) timesink, but rather an optional one; games are relatively quick, but still engage all the tabletop wargame tropes that I'm used to (movement is key!); FFG is far more supportive of their community; the tournament scene seems to be fairly active, and maybe most importantly; you don't need to memorise or purchase every codex in order to know all the fancy rules.

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One of the reasons I quit 40k was that I realized I was never really into it to begin with, so my story isn't really the same as most here. Plus, I've already largely given up on X-Wing due to a variety of factors (time, social anxiety, dice pet peeve), but my original intention was just to buy the HWK-290 for Dark Forces nostalgia, and bought into the game because of it doing away with many of the things that prevented me from ever getting into 40k.

 

40k and X-Wing do not entirely overlap. In fact, there's a lot of distinct ground for both. However, one of the places they overlap is extremely important: opportunity cost. If you have to drive over to a friend's house or a game store and set up a couple of armies to play for an hour or two, X-Wing is way more efficient in just about every way.

 

Honestly, I can't imagine Games Workshop lasting much longer in the grand scheme of things. Cutting their losses with gameplay and focusing entirely on miniatures might be a good idea, but even if they did it, I'd expect they'd do it poorly. 3D printing technology could make that obsolete, but with a company as large and entrenched as Games Workshop, 3D printing technology could be used by them to put out miniatures faster and cheaper than anyone else can compete with. The problem I see is the pride of Games Workshop would likely lead them to try to charge as much as they currently do or more for said miniatures, and be out-priced by companies or individuals who actually play to the strengths of the technology.

 

The longevity of X-Wing is a good point. Aside from the Force Awakens stuff, I feel like we're already getting to a point where new things are being added just for the sake of it (or at the very least, as delivery mechanisms for balance tweaks). I think the bounty hunter ships are good ideas, and I think there are more like that, but not many. I think they'll ride out a few more years, but I'm not really sure how the game will go after that. I don't mean that inherently negatively though, I haven't paid enough attention to games like this to know how these kind of things are usually handled.

 

Ultimately though, I don't think that's really important to the spirit of this thread. X-Wing has proved that smaller, cheaper, faster, and streamlined is generally better. Even if X-Wing does fade a few years from now, more games like it will probably pop up. FFG has already made two other Star Wars miniatures games after it. Some of those imitators will probably miss the true strengths of X-Wing (like many feel Attack Wing did), but developers will be starting from a better place.

Edited by Jokubas

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Since getting into X-Wing at the beginning of the year (took a leap at my FLGS after receiving some gift vouchers for b-day), I haven't touched my 40K.  It's gathering dust on my hobby desk and all I do when I look it is think "I really should get this stuff organised and sell it while there are still some people who play it".

 

I heard from a X-Wing mate the other day that both GW titles (40K and Fantasy) have dropped out of the Top 5 of most played wargames.  Didn't't surprise me at all.

I feel your pain.

I've got tons of 8th ed fantasy stuff gathering dust on my painting desk. War hammer is dead to me (not really anything to do with aos), I had moved away long before that debacle.

But GW has been a part of my life for 30 years, it's hard to completely cut ties..even if it's just looking at long ago models that will never be painted , but thinking "maybe when I'm bored I will finish that dudes sword".

I need to eBay it, I need the space and the money. But actually letting go...tough it is.

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