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Darkcloak

40k superseded?

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As for video games the only game that has tried both space and planetary combat was Empire at war. However there is a game Angels fall first that looks promising.

 

I like the Angels Fall First gameplay. It looks like Eternal Silence all over again!

 

If this is anything like the mod this should be sweet!

 

(And 40k's just too dang expensive. I've spent like REDACTED dollars on it and still barely have a big enough force to legally play. And don't talk to me about skirmish rules. I have never even seen a game of 40k skirmish let alone played one: and X-wing still has it beat in that department. The core set lets you play a 25-point skirmish right off the bat.)

Edited by OneKelvin

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I have played 40K (and WHFB) for ~20 years, and 40K itself has been around for what, 25 years?

X Wing has only been around for what, three years?

I simply don't think X Wing in it's current form has the legs to last another 22 years. FFG's success with the system comes from selling new ships to old gamers. Each wave boosts their profit margin for a little while until the market is largely saturated, and then they release another wave.

Personally, I don't think there's many waves left in X Wing. Or rather, that each wave is going to have less and less value to the customers as it starts to scrape the bottom of the EU barrel. I think people are overestimating the number of new ships that the movies will provide.

I also think the card-game aspect of X Wing will eventually go away, for a list-based approach. Or rather, sooner or later there will be a second edition of the game that will re-balance all the already released ships and tweak the ones that need it, and collect all the extra rules in one place. There may still be cards, but I think the game will look very different.

Frankly, after three years the game is already feeling bloated and starting to lose it's identity as Star Wars. I don't think another 22 years of releases will help matters any.

Having said all that, I've only played one or two games of 40K lately because GWs constant re-release schedule, and focus on action-figure sized mechs and monsters, has left a really sour taste in my mouth.

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The strangest thing about 40k vs X-wing is the absurd statement that they are not in competition with each other. There are just too many people that have turned away from 40k to play X-wing or armada (or both)

I get that FFG pays license to GW so can't really be considered the enemy, but it's playerbase is growing much faster in my area (where we have 4 GW stores all within an hours drive from each other)

I hope someday soon FFG (or any other gamer oriented company) gets to buy out a bankrupt GW and turns it back into a gamer oriented company

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I have played 40K (and WHFB) for ~20 years, and 40K itself has been around for what, 25 years?X Wing has only been around for what, three years?I simply don't think X Wing in it's current form has the legs to last another 22 years. FFG's success with the system comes from selling new ships to old gamers. Each wave boosts their profit margin for a little while until the market is largely saturated, and then they release another wave.Personally, I don't think there's many waves left in X Wing. Or rather, that each wave is going to have less and less value to the customers as it starts to scrape the bottom of the EU barrel. I think people are overestimating the number of new ships that the movies will provide.I also think the card-game aspect of X Wing will eventually go away, for a list-based approach. Or rather, sooner or later there will be a second edition of the game that will re-balance all the already released ships and tweak the ones that need it, and collect all the extra rules in one place. There may still be cards, but I think the game will look very different.Frankly, after three years the game is already feeling bloated and starting to lose it's identity as Star Wars. I don't think another 22 years of releases will help matters any.Having said all that, I've only played one or two games of 40K lately because GWs constant re-release schedule, and focus on action-figure sized mechs and monsters, has left a really sour taste in my mouth.

While i don't disagree for the most part, i think the new movies will reinvigorate the EU and we may see a lot more ships tthrough that

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I have played 40K (and WHFB) for ~20 years, and 40K itself has been around for what, 25 years?

X Wing has only been around for what, three years?

I simply don't think X Wing in it's current form has the legs to last another 22 years. FFG's success with the system comes from selling new ships to old gamers. Each wave boosts their profit margin for a little while until the market is largely saturated, and then they release another wave.

Personally, I don't think there's many waves left in X Wing. Or rather, that each wave is going to have less and less value to the customers as it starts to scrape the bottom of the EU barrel. I think people are overestimating the number of new ships that the movies will provide.

I also think the card-game aspect of X Wing will eventually go away, for a list-based approach. Or rather, sooner or later there will be a second edition of the game that will re-balance all the already released ships and tweak the ones that need it, and collect all the extra rules in one place. There may still be cards, but I think the game will look very different.

Frankly, after three years the game is already feeling bloated and starting to lose it's identity as Star Wars. I don't think another 22 years of releases will help matters any.

Having said all that, I've only played one or two games of 40K lately because GWs constant re-release schedule, and focus on action-figure sized mechs and monsters, has left a really sour taste in my mouth.

Those are all good points, but I want to believe the opposite.

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GW has plainly stated that they are NOT a rules company (i.e., games company, despite their own name), they are a MINIATURES COMPANY. Their rules are developed for the sole purpose of pushing new miniature product to a hardcore fanbase that buys everything, not to the wargamer crowd who masters an army and cares about tightly-written rules. They have been jacking prices deliberately because they know this small core will buy it no matter the price and they don't care about the other customers. It's truly a singularly insane business model and it comes as no surprise that the best 40K/Fantasty themed games in the last decade are all developed by other companies such as FFG or are their older games such as Blood Bowl and Space Hulk. The only way I'd ever play 40K again is if someone else made it (who gave a **** about parity and balance, not just pushing the latest models via power creep and frequent codex rewrites). GW still does amazing miniature work, but that is it, and the price is prohibitive to say the least.

They only started that line to deflect the complaints about their poor rules and utter lack of balance.

 

It's like the 80% of our customers are collectors it's total BS i don't know a single person from my old store that didn't buy stuff unless they intended to use it in a game.

 

And the prices is indeed prohibitive thats why they lost 15.5 million in profit over 2 years, people are leaving in droves and no ones replacing them.

 

 

 

I didn't even play the game, but bought the models because my friends were buying them, and frankly I enjoyed modelling. I liked Mordheim and still consider it my favorite fantasy game.

 

I don't feel resentment towards GW. Both they and their players have exactly what they deserve. 40k is like scientology or opus dei, when you stop doing it you lose a lot of friends, but it's worth stopping in the end.

That's not really fair especially in the UK, GW ran the independent stores out of business in the 90's with dirty tactics and so as far as miniature wargaming went it was GW or nothing for alot of people.

 

We don't have houses as big as yours because we use real building materials like bricks ;) so we had to go to a store to play which meant GW unless you live in a major city.

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I still love the warhammer fantasy (pre AoS) and wh40k settings, but GWs business practices have just worn me down. If they ever get bought out by someone halfway competent I might go back but I've got enough unpainted armies to last a lifetime anyway.

X-wing I'd just a superior game and the pre painted and assembled models are a bonus.

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GW has plainly stated that they are NOT a rules company (i.e., games company, despite their own name), they are a MINIATURES COMPANY. Their rules are developed for the sole purpose of pushing new miniature product to a hardcore fanbase that buys everything, not to the wargamer crowd who masters an army and cares about tightly-written rules. They have been jacking prices deliberately because they know this small core will buy it no matter the price and they don't care about the other customers. It's truly a singularly insane business model and it comes as no surprise that the best 40K/Fantasty themed games in the last decade are all developed by other companies such as FFG or are their older games such as Blood Bowl and Space Hulk. The only way I'd ever play 40K again is if someone else made it (who gave a **** about parity and balance, not just pushing the latest models via power creep and frequent codex rewrites). GW still does amazing miniature work, but that is it, and the price is prohibitive to say the least.

 

Pretty much exactly this. All of this "models not rules" nonsense is going to bite them in the rear when no one new is buying in because when someone asks "what miniatures game should I play?" 40k isn't even in the top 5 suggestions. If the rules were good, and the game was solid, they'd just keep dominating but instead they're doubling down on their nonsense, it's incredibly frustrating to watch. That said I do still buy the occasional kit because I enjoy assembling and painting, and I still like 40k as a setting. So I guess I'm part of the problem, I'm just not spending nearly as much as I was years ago.

 

I simply don't think X Wing in it's current form has the legs to last another 22 years. FFG's success with the system comes from selling new ships to old gamers. Each wave boosts their profit margin for a little while until the market is largely saturated, and then they release another wave.

 

Maybe not, but part of why Warhammer is still on top, sales wise, is for the bulk of that 25 years they were the only game in town of any real consequence, and they keep rolling on that momentum today. If they tried to release 40k as a brand new setting and system today in the state it's currently in, or even in the state of the original Rogue Trader, it'd likely fall flat on its face against the much more high quality offerings.

Edited by Otacon

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I have been a huge 40K fan for years, started right when 5th dropped.  I love the lore, the fluff, the universe.  I go very much in depth with my armies backstory and model accordinly.  Special paint jobs for models and unit's that do something speical in games.

 

This has made it all the more painful for me to have stopped 40K pretty much cold turkey.  Too much PTW and power creep.  It has taken the fun out of it for me.  When my entire army list is invalidated it is frustrating.  I am fine with learning to deal with new units and tweeks in the game, but I should not have to scrap my entire army and ally in another just to have any sort of fighting chance.  I play(ed) Sister's of Battle.  unit's like the Tau Riptide counter everything I have.  I talked it over with Tau players and they were forced to argee that there is nothing I could really do if my opponent brought more than 1.  I should not have to buy a new army to be able to play mine.  This combined with harder time finding players, locations to play, and people I want to play when I do (ie non-TFG/WAAC)

 

FFG has done a good job of making a balanced game where with good planning and piloting, anything can find a use.  If something is not working, they fix try and fix it.  Even if the fix is not perfect, they try.  More then can be said about GW.

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I have played 40K (and WHFB) for ~20 years, and 40K itself has been around for what, 25 years?

X Wing has only been around for what, three years?

I simply don't think X Wing in it's current form has the legs to last another 22 years. FFG's success with the system comes from selling new ships to old gamers. Each wave boosts their profit margin for a little while until the market is largely saturated, and then they release another wave.

Personally, I don't think there's many waves left in X Wing. Or rather, that each wave is going to have less and less value to the customers as it starts to scrape the bottom of the EU barrel. I think people are overestimating the number of new ships that the movies will provide.

I also think the card-game aspect of X Wing will eventually go away, for a list-based approach. Or rather, sooner or later there will be a second edition of the game that will re-balance all the already released ships and tweak the ones that need it, and collect all the extra rules in one place. There may still be cards, but I think the game will look very different.

Frankly, after three years the game is already feeling bloated and starting to lose it's identity as Star Wars. I don't think another 22 years of releases will help matters any.

Having said all that, I've only played one or two games of 40K lately because GWs constant re-release schedule, and focus on action-figure sized mechs and monsters, has left a really sour taste in my mouth.

 

It's almost as if Episodes VII-IX didn't exist/is planned to attract a fresh audience.

 

???

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War-gamer for over 20 years between x-wing and imperial assault I doubt ill but anything games workshop ever again there are just too many other alternatives as well Warma-hordes, Kings of war, Infinity all much better games.

 

Highly recommend Kings of war for jaded fantasy players.

 

Even fantasy flights 40k properties i have trouble justifying getting into just because there's plenty of other stuff I'm happy playing.

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Since getting into X-Wing at the beginning of the year (took a leap at my FLGS after receiving some gift vouchers for b-day), I haven't touched my 40K.  It's gathering dust on my hobby desk and all I do when I look it is think "I really should get this stuff organised and sell it while there are still some people who play it".

 

I heard from a X-Wing mate the other day that both GW titles (40K and Fantasy) have dropped out of the Top 5 of most played wargames.  Didn't't surprise me at all.

Wait, where did you get that information. Link to source please? I am curious about the data. :huh:

 

As for Fantasy well since GW discontinued it of course it would no longer be in the Top 5. Now If Warhammer 40,000 drops from its throne as #1 grossing table top game then I won't be surprised but from Top 5 all together? That means either there are 3 or 4 more equally popular games out there or every table top game from X-wing to Hordes has finally eclipsed it. Last I saw from the data were

  1. Warhammer 40,000 GW
  2. Star Wars: X-wing FFG
  3. Warmachine Pvt Press
  4. Hordes Pvt Press
  5. Star Wars: Armada FFG

 

I would be willing to wager that 40k is highest grossing, simply because it's so expensive lol.

 

Well that and also it has a really massive consumer base. There is one part of the market GW has that isn't even touched by FFG because it is not a part of FFG's business model and that is the modeling/painting part which is HUGE in European and Japanese markets.

duel_2_c.gif

In a matter of fact you may argue that GW favored the hobbyist aspect of Warhammer over the game aspect and you would be right. If you took a look at the Games Day events that GW had the biggest prize, the Slayer Sword, was not to who won the tournament bracket but which of the golden demon winners was the best out of all of them. I could even find old White Dwarf Articles some where in the later half of the first decade of 2000 where one of the devs said that they focus on the hobbyist aspect of their products instead of the rule set.

374535a.jpg

FFG doesn't really consider the hobbyist aspect for their business plan and to be fair they don't really need it. Sure there is a pallet for conversions and repaints as you can see on this forum. But that is a small demand and FFG does not need to provide hobby support such as paints and modeling supplies so people who want to convert and repaint can just buy 3rd party modeling products and customize it the way they want. As long as FFG sells a model they make a profit.

 

For Games Workshop though they focus heavily on the modeling aspect, and considering their location that is not a bad business move. There was this one miniatures game called AT-34 much like the style of Rouge Trader. It used to be in Europe only and unpainted. The creator had to sell to a local publisher to keep the product going and there were some moves that pretty much stunted the product growth. The first was the move to fully assembled pre-painted models which frustrated it European customers, pretty much all the customers that they had. There were a couple of other things such as model quality and stiff competition when released to US markets but to sum it all up this game didn't go far.

thch02_reg.jpg

Now I will say that it is obvious that GW has not been making the best business moves. There is no denying that they are facing hard times with everything from declining popularity, lower sales, higher market competition. And with 3D printing threatening to steal the demands for manufacturing out from under them, it is clear that they are trying to ride out the storm however it doesn't seem like they are fairing well against the initial squalls. The future of Warhammer 40,000 is very uncertain, especially after what GW did to their second highest product line by retconning the Warhammer Fantasy story-line in a manner that would make J.J. Abrahms blush, one can easily say 40K is not immune to such actions.

Edited by Marinealver

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It's almost as if Episodes VII-IX didn't exist/is planned to attract a fresh audience.

 

???

Howe many waves did we get out of the OT? Two? Three? I don't expect to see much more from the new movies.

Will the new movies stimulate a heap more EU ships? Maybe, but part of the problem with X Wing already is that it's chock full of EU ships that aren't immediately recognisable as Star Wars. I'm a pretty big Star Wars fan, and I'd never even heard of half of the ships in X Wing until I started playing this game.

And also consider that the old EU has had 30 years to grow and develop, while the new EU is only what, two years old? I just don't see FFGs release schedule being able to keep the same head of steam up, and I wonder (and worry) about what that means for the game in the next two decades or more.

Personally, I want to see the game become like any of the many historical games out there: A complete rule set, a complete miniature range, that is able to sustain sales and stand on it's own two feet without needing a constant influx of new waves to stimulate sales. But I honestly think that X Wing sales will slow down in the next few years, and they will not be able to keep the licence. It'll go to someone else who will release a new game with different miniatures that will start a new game, and repeat the whole process again.

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War-gamer for over 20 years between x-wing and imperial assault I doubt ill but anything games workshop ever again there are just too many other alternatives as well Warma-hordes, Kings of war, Infinity all much better games.

 

Highly recommend Kings of war for jaded fantasy players.

 

Even fantasy flights 40k properties i have trouble justifying getting into just because there's plenty of other stuff I'm happy playing.

Funnily enough, forbidden stars is what took me to the flgs where I saw my first game of x-wing.

That was the beginning of the end for 40k

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I walked away from the game of 40K completely in mid-2014.  The game wasn't fun then and its hasn't gotten any better since then.  I love that universe, its an amazing Sci-Fi Genre, the models are beautiful albeit expensive, but the game is grossly unbalanced and really no fun at all.

 

Bring D Weapons, Superheavies and a TON of Psyker dice and you win.  Who cares about fluff?  Who cares about balance?  Just sell more models!  

I really hate what GW did to a game I truly loved.  I know a lot of folks didn't care for 5th Edition, but it easily was the most balanced and fair.

I definitely went through a pretty heartbreaking divorce from 40k but we're civil to one another now.

40k as a true tournament game is unwieldy in every way and as you mentioned, imbalanced. So X-wing has taken my attention as a competitive and tactical challenge.

That said, I recently got talked into a pretty large 40k tournament and had a pretty good time since I wasn't emotionally invested in the game.

As a bonus, I get to enjoy the wringing of hands and looks of anguish on the faces of my friends who are still emotionally invested 40k. They give me monthly reminders of wjy I should keep that game, and more importantly, that company at arms length.

From the inside, looking out its a very different perspective.

Most of Games Workshop customers are not gamers. The "game" has always just been another means to sell models.

My best customers, are people who just want cool models, and Games Workshop simply makes the best models.

And I do appreciate that perspective. It makes sense, almost. It doesn't explain why GW has become less and less receptive to customer input. If you don't want to waste time and resources to develop a balanced game? Fine, turn over the development side to passionate gamers and slim your operation to a models company only. They insist on having sole control over an aspect they don't value.

That's objectively poor business sense and seems more like arrogance and spite.

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I walked away from the game of 40K completely in mid-2014.  The game wasn't fun then and its hasn't gotten any better since then.  I love that universe, its an amazing Sci-Fi Genre, the models are beautiful albeit expensive, but the game is grossly unbalanced and really no fun at all.

 

Bring D Weapons, Superheavies and a TON of Psyker dice and you win.  Who cares about fluff?  Who cares about balance?  Just sell more models!  

I really hate what GW did to a game I truly loved.  I know a lot of folks didn't care for 5th Edition, but it easily was the most balanced and fair.

I definitely went through a pretty heartbreaking divorce from 40k but we're civil to one another now.

40k as a true tournament game is unwieldy in every way and as you mentioned, imbalanced. So X-wing has taken my attention as a competitive and tactical challenge.

That said, I recently got talked into a pretty large 40k tournament and had a pretty good time since I wasn't emotionally invested in the game.

As a bonus, I get to enjoy the wringing of hands and looks of anguish on the faces of my friends who are still emotionally invested 40k. They give me monthly reminders of wjy I should keep that game, and more importantly, that company at arms length.

From the inside, looking out its a very different perspective.

Most of Games Workshop customers are not gamers. The "game" has always just been another means to sell models.

My best customers, are people who just want cool models, and Games Workshop simply makes the best models.

And I do appreciate that perspective. It makes sense, almost. It doesn't explain why GW has become less and less receptive to customer input. If you don't want to waste time and resources to develop a balanced game? Fine, turn over the development side to passionate gamers and slim your operation to a models company only. They insist on having sole control over an aspect they don't value.

That's objectively poor business sense and seems more like arrogance and spite.

 

 

And that's exactly why I stay away from them now.  If you visit my gaming blog, you will see TONS of 40K and WHFB (now dead) content on there.  Unfortunately, their stupidity year after year has driven one of their biggest fans away (also ex-employee).  RIP.

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Highly recommend Kings of war for jaded fantasy players.

Agreed, KoW is a fantastic game. Better than WHFB ever was, IMO.

 

 

I couldn't get into it.  It's wayyy too simplified and lacks all the fantasy and flavor of GW.  Just way too generic.

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The fluff used to be good now it's just copy and pasted from the previous book with nothing new added the latest tau codex being the perfect example.

There was a time I'd buy every codex and army book for £10 every couple of months was affordable, now it's £30 every month and just not realistic.

Hell you could buy every AoS book and be no wiser about the world because their IP paranoia prevents them giving and info in advance in case another company makes a model first.

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