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Stark464

Does this system support...the Dark Side?

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It's purely a mechanical thing. Currently DS points show up more often but without the possibility of getting two pips on the die, if you reverse it and have your DS PCs use white pips as DS they will get access to those two pips. 

 

Isn't that the point?  If you want to be dark side, that's the price.

 

Also, there is a dark face with 2 pips, so it's not impossible.

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The Force Dice is basically built around the Yoda quote:

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

Luke: "But how am I to know the good side from the bad?"

Yoda: "You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive."

Basically the DS gets a more consistent number of PiPs and gets it more often, but the number you get is lower. But the LS offers more strength if your patient with it, if your calm and wait for the right moment. Both have the same average number of Pips per roll (Edit: I meant same average over many rolls) though which maintains the balance so important to the Star Wars story.

Edited by Richardbuxton

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I feel like in the rule of two era the difference is basically the Sith Master teaches their Sith Apprentice the vast majority of what they know. They can have other apprentices but they only teach them stuff like "Give in to your anger" and how to use a lightsaber. Inquisitors would be like this but a bit more detailed.

Edited by Norgrath

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Anyone interested in running a Imperial Inquisitor's retinue, using F&D? it seems a reasonabe enough framework for a low-morality campain...

 

That would make for a fun and refreshing game to play in. Granted I've always liked the Empire soooooooo

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"Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.  Consume you, it will!"  This player sounds like hes going to run into problems, and doesn't know it, yet.  One of two things will happen:  Either he is going to attract attention from the Empire, and end up being hauled away and either converted or killed.  Or his own group is going to decide that they don't want any part of this monster, and put him down.  You may want to remind the player that being a Sith rarely ends well...

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On the topic of this character working with a party of mostly non Sith/non darkside characters ...... it has been my experience that in a long term game having a party composed of good and evil characters is a hard thing to maintain without someones feelings getting hurt. One side is going to have to reign their behavior in. Either the Sith guy can't be as evil as he'd like or the other characters can't be as good as they would like. Such a group will have to constantly compromise a bit when it comes to the types of behaviors that are going to be allowed from the other PC's. As such it is something I tend to only recommend between groups that are really really good and really really in touch with how they come together as a group to role play. 

 

In many cases it is far simpler to rule that everyone is evil or everyone is good (or .... relatively so). If you don't think the group as a whole can hack the constant back and forth and compromising that comes with having a party of good and evil characters I would from the start not allow the person to play a full on Sith. And I would express to the person that playing a Sith is not free reign to be a jerk. IE he shouldn't be working against the party overall, he shouldn't be stealing from the party, he shouldn't be putting the parting in undue harm, and most importantly he shouldn't put his fun ahead of the group as a whole. 

 

Though seriously the Inquisitor game idea sounds fun. 

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On the topic of this character working with a party of mostly non Sith/non darkside characters ...... it has been my experience that in a long term game having a party composed of good and evil characters is a hard thing to maintain without someones feelings getting hurt. One side is going to have to reign their behavior in. Either the Sith guy can't be as evil as he'd like or the other characters can't be as good as they would like. Such a group will have to constantly compromise a bit when it comes to the types of behaviors that are going to be allowed from the other PC's. As such it is something I tend to only recommend between groups that are really really good and really really in touch with how they come together as a group to role play. 

 

In many cases it is far simpler to rule that everyone is evil or everyone is good (or .... relatively so). If you don't think the group as a whole can hack the constant back and forth and compromising that comes with having a party of good and evil characters I would from the start not allow the person to play a full on Sith. And I would express to the person that playing a Sith is not free reign to be a jerk. IE he shouldn't be working against the party overall, he shouldn't be stealing from the party, he shouldn't be putting the parting in undue harm, and most importantly he shouldn't put his fun ahead of the group as a whole. 

 

Though seriously the Inquisitor game idea sounds fun. 

 

Yes it does! I think if he is DS, I would make sure there are no 'lawful paladin' types in the party. Either grey morality or guys who will do what is necessary to get the job done. Either way, I told him he would have to be discreet, but yeah, he wants a power fantasy of being a badass Darth Revan type from the get go. And I'm not going to GM that!

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My take on the Sith Rule of Two: A Sith Lord would once have numerous apprentices, each vying with him/her, and each other, to gain the most power, and eventually surpass their master. While this works, if you've played KOTOR, you know where this can eventually bite you; two or more apprentices gang up on their master, and off them, but not before they learn everything, causing much knowledge to be lost.

 

The Rule of Two happened because the Sith wiped themselves out, along with most of the Jedi, and were left in a galaxy where they needed to be hidden. One master, and one apprentice meant that the apprentice had to learn to be self-sufficient, and probably couldn't kill their master before they were ready, while the master could afford to focus all their training energy on one acolyte, sort of like how the Jedi did it, most of the time. Also, they could be hidden, and not attract the attention of the galaxy, or the Jedi, who weren't quite so thoroughly wiped out, after the Battle of Ruusan. Plagueus and Palpatine  were able to sit in the Supreme Chancellor's office, WITH Yoda, and the aged Jedi Master, who even in all his years had never encountered a real Sith, had no idea whom he was having lunch with. That was the value of the Rule of Two. When Palpatine actually succeeded in the Sith ideal, and ruled the galaxy, that is when the system caved, as he had no interest in "passing on his legacy" to an apprentice, to further the Sith plan; he had accomplished it, and now wanted to rule, forever.

 

This is my opinion, at least, cobbled together through years of Star Wars material-browsing. Your own interpretations may vary.

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As to becoming a Sith, because of the rule of two, I would say no way to that.

Unless you're going for a dark campaign, where everybody is dark, dark characters are generally a bad idea. It of course is going to depend on the player, the specific characters, and the group, but a dark/evil character can ruin the fun of everybody else at the table.

I would talk to the guy and find out WHY he wants to play a Sith. I have a hunch he thinks an RPG is like a video game with dice where you can murder people without significant consequences.

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Remember, that going 'dark side' doesn't necessarily mean you're working *against* the rest of the party.  You may be working toward the same goals, you're just willing to do certain things that they're not in order to achieve them.  There's plenty of 'dark heroes' who do some pretty vile things to ensure that evil doesn't triumph, and not all of them actually end up being villains in the traditional sense.

 

Actually going full-blown *SITH*, on the other hand, can easily put the character and the party in active conflict, and will almost certainly do so if another character is a Jedi, or Jedi-like.

Just keep in mind that while the Force can't be fooled by rationalizations, *people* can be (and all too often, *are*).

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Someone asked what the difference between a Jedi and a Dark Jedi is.

 

Jedi = Charles Xavier.

Dark Jedi = Magneto.

 

Sith = Well, whatever individual is out to wipe out the mutants. I don't really read comics but I'm sure there's someone who is the greater enemy of both. Ultron?

 

You see Xavier and Magneto are both basically of the same roots and though one has gone off the rails and they come into conflict with each other sometimes, they recognise there is a shared heritage. And both probably regard conflict with the other as regrettable and perhaps wasteful. They're not inherently enemies, they're just different. The Dark Jedi is that member of your family that beat someone up and got arrested. Or has a bad drug habit and you argue over whether you should invite them to the wedding or not cause you know they'll start a fight and hit on the bride. 

 

Sith aren't family or just arguing with you over different beliefs. Sith are the enemy. They will kill you.

Edited by knasserII

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My questions have always been "What makes a Sith a Sith and not a Dark Jedi?  What's the diff?"

Certain secrets of the dark side and the force known only to them and learned through dark undertakings mostly.

 

Also the recipe for chocolate cookies.

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My questions have always been "What makes a Sith a Sith and not a Dark Jedi?  What's the diff?"

 

The Jedi and Sith Orders are specific philosophies/religions of Force use. They tend to be rivals because the Jedi strive to avoid and oppose the Dark Side of the Force, while the Sith embrace it.

 

"Dark Jedi" is a common term for a member of the Jedi Order who falls to the Dark Side. Some Dark Jedi subsequently join the Sith Order (as happened with Count Dooku/Darth Tyrannus and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader), but that doesn't always happen, especially during the millennium when there are supposed to be only two formal Sith Lords at a time. Conversely, there are Sith who are introduced to that philosophy first without ever having been Jedi (Darth Maul and Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious being two prominent examples).

 

A proper Sith Lord would frown on a fallen Jedi or other Darksider without the Sith training and lineage calling themselves Sith or using the title "Darth," much as a Jedi Knight who grew up in the Order and passed the Trials to earn that title would frown on random Force-sensitives proclaiming themselves Jedi Knights without a real tie to the order, even if they strive to uphold the Jedi philosophy to the best of their understanding.

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I think it goes far beyond just a difference in philosophies. Dark Jedi vs. Regular is a difference in attitudes and philosophies. Sith and Jedi have been at war for millennia. The Jedi nearly exterminated the Sith and believed that they had. That's not "you have different beliefs". That's a full on Ancient

Enemies / Let's Get Medieval / Devil vs. God situation. IMO.

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I think it goes far beyond just a difference in philosophies. Dark Jedi vs. Regular is a difference in attitudes and philosophies. Sith and Jedi have been at war for millennia. The Jedi nearly exterminated the Sith and believed that they had. That's not "you have different beliefs". That's a full on Ancient

Enemies / Let's Get Medieval / Devil vs. God situation. IMO.

 

I think you misunderstand what the others have been saying. The "different beliefs and philosophies" thing discussed is what separates a Sith from a dark-Jedi, not what separates a Sith from a Jedi.

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Right. The Sith are a specific Dark Side religion/organization. Serving the Dark Side alone does not make you a Sith. Being a fallen Jedi does not make you a Sith unless and until an actual Sith extends a job offer  :) 

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I think it goes far beyond just a difference in philosophies. Dark Jedi vs. Regular is a difference in attitudes and philosophies. Sith and Jedi have been at war for millennia. The Jedi nearly exterminated the Sith and believed that they had. That's not "you have different beliefs". That's a full on Ancient

Enemies / Let's Get Medieval / Devil vs. God situation. IMO.

 

I think you misunderstand what the others have been saying. The "different beliefs and philosophies" thing discussed is what separates a Sith from a dark-Jedi, not what separates a Sith from a Jedi.

 

I understood. I'm saying that a Dark Jedi is not separated from a Sith by only different beliefs and philosophies. There is also a very important factor of allegiance and blood feud. Two people can have different philosophies and beliefs and even ones that are opposed, yet still co-exist without going full Montague and Capulet. The galaxy is a big place, after all. But Sith and Jedi -Dark or otherwise - are separated by more than this. They mean to kill each other. What separates a Sith from a Dark Jedi is partly different beliefs, but it's also status as being that faction. As Deadstop points out, the Sith are a specific group / cult / organization. You can fall the the dark side but it doesn't mean you get the super-secret Sith password and decoder ring.

 

But I don't want to over-emphasize it either. There certainly are philosophical and other differences as well as allegiance. I think I would say that a Sith is almost always going to be a greater threat than a dark jedi because of this. I think a Dark Jedi is a slave to the Dark Side, unable to control their passions and lost in the power of the Dark Side. Dangerous to be sure and in the end will probably destroy themselves and anyone close to them. A Sith wields the Dark Side. She is born to it, is taught how to embrace and ride it. Her training and philosophies and techniques are all about becoming a master of the Dark Side. She isn't its slave, she's its mistress.

 

Sith and a Dark Jedi have different approaches, agreed. But the former are also a specific allegiance that wishes to kill the Jedi and vice versa. This is an important element.

Edited by knasserII

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Of course, the Sith Lord we know best, Darth Vader, was a fallen Jedi who had no real opportunity for Sith-specific training before he received that name (though I presume he got some afterward). His predecessor, Darth Tyrannus, had an even longer history as a Jedi. So there are some Sith who are not born to the philosophy, and indeed were trained in the Jedi way before turning.

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Darth Sidious saw more benefit in converting a Jedi to his Sith Apprentice than many of his predecessors. Jedi received all the force training, minus how to accurately call on the Dark Side and specific Sith techniques. That's years of training Sidious can skip, compliments of his mortal enemies.

Dooku, prior to his conversion was also studying Sith holocrons and experimenting with the Dark Side, saving Sidious a ton of on the job training. Anakin had already been using things like Force Rage and various Dark Side uses of general Force techniques, thanks to being in the front lines of the Clone Wars. Plus, we'd be fools not to be open to the idea that those "mentoring" sessions Palpatine offered Anakin during those rough times didn't have subtle dark side teachings.

Edit: As I typed that, I'm watching the Friends and Enemies episode of Clone Wars, where Sidious does a subtle lesson on using his emotions rather than denying them.

Edited by General Zod

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One problem with this issue is it isn't really black and white. Keep in mind that the films and such aren't meant to be thought about deeply because the ideas tend to fall apart a bit when closely examined. Best to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) when dealing with the Force.

They way I look at it: If the intention, means, or outcome involves Fear, Hatred, Suffering or Indifference to Suffering it's Dark Side
If the intention, means, or outcome involves Compassion, Love, the release from suffering, it's going to be Light Side.

 

Another important thought is that the Jedi Council at the time of it's fall was corrupt because it allowed a great deal of suffering and injustice to prevail. An example was the the indifference that Qui Gon had toward the slavery he witnessed. It's true that Tatooine was not part of the Republic and technically outside of his jurisdiction but he showed no compassion to those suffering under it at all unless it directly involved something he wanted. No doubt the Jedi Council would have agreed. With this in mind it's going to be problematic to use the Jedi as a perfect example of the Light Side in action.

Edited by FuriousGreg

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My questions have always been "What makes a Sith a Sith and not a Dark Jedi?  What's the diff?"

 

This bothered me as well and after thinking about it the answers are simple:

 

During the height of the Jedi Order users of the Dark Side are hunted by the Jedi. As such, Dark Siders have little to no access to training in the Force along with martial applications of Force Training, such as lightsaber combat, deflecting, etc etc.

 

The Sith apprentice however, has access to his master who teaches him everything about the Dark Side, similar to how a Jedi Padawan learns from a Jedi Master (or a Jedi Knight in certain special cases) Not only that, but Sith, also have knowledge about Lightsaber skills, how to construct them and how to use them in conjunction with the Force. As Sidious said, the Jedi and Sith are similar in all but every way.

 

Finally being an old order, Sith Lords have knowledge of specialized Dark Side techniques. This IMO is what truly sets them apart from some random run of the mill Dark Jedi/Dark Force User. Just like Jedi are masters of the light side, Sith have mastered the dark side. As Sidious said "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural"

 

So how would you handle this in game terms? Easy: Sith characters can access all Jedi type careers in F&D as well as construct and use Lightsabers (Lightsaber skill) Furthermore Sith characters can pump their xp into Force Powers like Unleash aka Force Lightning. I would not let any non Sith access the highest unleash trees (because Force Lightning is a powerful Dark Side ability) nor the highest Force Powers with martial aspects like Enhance, Move and Sense.

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