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Carn Dum is Shipping!

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Had a really exciting game using Seastan's ranger deck. Almost won, but in fact lost due to a stupid mistake. I didn't even know about the effect on 2a. I actually forgot to use Aragorn's ability the round before, and I was at threat 47 or so. Very stupid, but nonetheless that deck is really good. It's surprisingly not hard to get at least 2 snares really fast, and then off you go. Ever since Leadership became as good if not better at questing as Spirit, and since Lore got many more of these anti-enemy cards, I've thought Leadership-Lore is as good a combination, if not better in some cases, than Spirit-Tactics, at least is solo. Spirit-Tactics is still pretty darn powerful, but getting arguably the best two things in a card game, resources and card draw, can really be better. Gotta give it to the Dwarves too, as the best dwarf solo deck IMO is the one with Dain, Thorin and Ori. 

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Grateful for the feedback Gizlivadi!

 

I find the best, albeit cheesy, way to handle Carn Dum is to let all the encounter get trapped up in shadow cards on the Snared enemies. Then no more sorceries can get revealed (or any other card for that matter). You then handle the 2A effect using Favor of the Valar (originally I was using shadows give way + good harvest until I think Cmabr pointed out this easier and better method).

 

I'll post the Carn-Dum adjusted decklist imminently. 

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Personally I like having a good mix of quests. People complain about quests when they're too hard but honestly you are not required to play every quest in this game. You can be content for months, if not years, playing the "easy quests" that already exist in this game. Why do people begrudge the occasional difficult quest? If there were no super hard quests I wouldn't like this game. I don't want a walk in the park, I want to be challenged. If anything I think the majority of quests in this game tend to be on the easy side if anything. There's no quest in this game that you can't specifically make a deck to dominate it.

I've suggested before the designers really need to go out of the box more and make more quests that either punish readying outside of the refresh phase or don't allow it at all. Same with extra card draw.

If you think this quest, or lake town, etc, are too challenging don't play them. I'm not trying to be harsh here either by saying that. There are so many quests in this game there's room for everyone to be happy.

We complain, because we pay a good amount of money to have some fun. And not to skip a quest.

 

(If you're searching for impossible challenges, simply play nightmare mode.)

 

We complain, because this quest is badly designed.

 

I complain, because I want to use the new cards instead of locking them away in a box.

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A few years back I did a walking pilgrimage that was 800 km.  It took over a month to walk it.  If it would have taken one day, I'd call it a day hike instead of a pilgrimage.  Some things are better when they take time to achieve.

 

It is OK if you lose a quest, even 20 times in a row.  You can have fun with that if your mind is in the right place.  Winning is just the end goal.

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A few years back I did a walking pilgrimage that was 800 km.  It took over a month to walk it.  If it would have taken one day, I'd call it a day hike instead of a pilgrimage.  Some things are better when they take time to achieve.

 

It is OK if you lose a quest, even 20 times in a row.  You can have fun with that if your mind is in the right place.  Winning is just the end goal.

Uhm, no, it is not ok... :huh:

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I agree with Grandspleen. Since most of the quest are not that hard it is nice to have a quest once in a while that you have to try hard, think options for your deck etc. That might help you create better combos or ways of playing, even use cards you thought would never do - i never believed ranger spikes and forest patrol are going ever to be used before i used them together on crossroads to kill Harads without even exhausting a character to attack.

Personally i lost Crossroads (or dumbed it cause there was no hope) more than 15 games before i found a deck with which i won 2 out of 4. And i could say i am on time pressure too (apart from work schedule) cause i have two small kids who when are awake i cannot play

With Carn Dum have not yet managed to beat it with my Dunedain deck after i tried 5 games -but won it with a Spirfindel Gandalf Galadriel- and now after Journey on the Crossroads, the way i used rangers with traps etc gave me some new ideas to try on Dunedain on Carn Dum again.

Easier or medium quests give players a good time, but harder make them "better" even if they keep loosing them

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A few years back I did a walking pilgrimage that was 800 km.  It took over a month to walk it.  If it would have taken one day, I'd call it a day hike instead of a pilgrimage.  Some things are better when they take time to achieve.

 

It is OK if you lose a quest, even 20 times in a row.  You can have fun with that if your mind is in the right place.  Winning is just the end goal.

Uhm, no, it is not ok... :huh:

 

 

There's a guy on BGG that just posted saying they tried it fourty times! I don't think that's a data point to be proud of...  I think a quest's difficulty, when part of a normal cycle, not gencon stuff, not nightmare, should be something like, for say a hard quest:

 

try it with random deck. lose. perhaps try again, lose

decide to deck build something.  try, lose. tweak, try, lose

figure out you had the wrong idea, deck build the second big idea, try and lose maybe but get close

perhaps a last deck build, maybe with a tweak, and win.

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Just to be clear (again, because I've said this before), I am not pointing out that I beat it first try to brag. As I have said I lost to Morgul Vale at least 20 times (probably closer to 40) before beating that quest. FFG can control the words that they put on the cards but they can't control your ability to play. Somehow if they make a quest that you have a hard time figuring out they are doing something wrong? That is what they are supposed to do. It is absolutely okay if you lose the quest 20, 30, or 40 times. It just means the quest is hard. This game has been hard since day 1. If you want a cake walk go play Dead Marshes or play a different game or wait a year for the cardpool to expand. But complaining as if FFG has morally offended you is just silly. I don't get it.

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I actually haven't gotten a chance to try this quest again, but a friend and i very nearly beat this on our second attempt and we had not done any specific deck building for it.  and we would have won if the last shadow card wasn't what it was.  any other card and it would have been a victory.  

 

That said, I'm glad the quest seems hard and is very challenging.  I'm not glad that it seems others have had to play it 20+ times to get a victory.  But a lot of those that are playing it that many times seems to be OK with that turn out, and - understandably so - are quit proud once they do get their victory. 

 

A lot of the debate right now is all perspective based though, and while each of us is capable of seeing from the other persons perspective, that doesn't mean it will change our mind about our own thoughts on this quest - or the game in general.  

 

I do think that if I had to play a quest 20+ times before I beat it, but know that others have beaten it, then I clearly need to rethink my deck-building ideas and even my game play strategies.  Clearly what I'm doing isn't working.   I wouldn't take this as a fault in the designers. 

 

As far as deck building, I do like to build utility decks that can handle a lot of things and use that deck for every quest.  However, I also understand that not every deck idea I make is going to be strong enough to deal with the encounter deck.  You've got to have options and be willing to try completely different ideas.  For example, I've disliked the Dunedain trait for awhile until I saw a deck list that uses Damrod and Forest Snares and even then had to participate in the discussion about why its' OK the Dunedain were relying on traps, making Damrod an excellent fit, before I starting to come around to liking the trait and what it was trying to do.  

 

Anyways, I don't think this quest is bad design.  I think this quest fills a much needed spot of being the next go-to quest for a serious challenge.  I've often seen Laketown brought up in this thread, and just thinking of a non-nightmare quest that compares to that is outstanding for me - and several others.  I understand there are plenty of people that dislike the difficulty of this quest.  I'm curious, have any of you tried to quest with the gold ring cards removed?  The designers put those in to have a built-in way of lowering the difficulty of a quest easily and I know several people do this on a regular basis because that is how they would rather play the game.  

 

to each their own.

Edited by Slothgodfather

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I think if you lose this quest forty times in a row you shouldn't be playing a game that involes deck-building unless you're have someone else make your decks for you (and in that case get second else to make your decks). I had some time to watch seastan beat this quest several times, the deck I beat it with was similar to his gandalf deck (though I made mine independently of his and I have galadriel instead of glorfindel). I honestly beat the quest with barely breaking a sweat with that deck (and I've lost with other decks to be fair).

Personally I want some HARDER quests. We have tons of easy quests already, but only a handful which I would say are challenging outside of nightmare and even many of those are easy now. You could spend many many MANY hours playing all of the easy quests in this game and not getting bored. The adventure packs are so cheap, and do repayable even if you lose you're getting your money's worth.

Also great suggestions already we're posted for playing the game on easy mode.

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Ok I think some people are playing or doing something wrong with this quest big time.

Yes I've only had a few more attempts at it but how fast I lose and how quickly it spirals out of control just puts a bad taste in my mouth and stops me from even wanting to make more attempts. I really do think it is horribly designed. 

I can accept some people not having that much trouble and certain people overcoming it with particular decks and strategies but I feel like some are just taking it too far. I personally think this is hands down easily the hardest quest to date, inclusive of POD. I think Lake town is far easier than this quest. Same goes for BoFA, shadow and flame, morgul vale etc.

 

Sorry, but all of the people carrying on about nightmare, do you actually own and play most of the nightmare quests? even the newer ones?

There are very few nightmare quests I can think of that are harder than this quest and even then they are far more cleverly designed and are difficult because they make you think and present such a different challenge from anything else (for example nightmare druadan forest) and are unique as opposed to being mind numbingly hard and painful.

 

Plenty of quests are especially hard. zeromage have you beaten nightmare shadow and flame? nightmare foundations of stone? nightmare encounter at amon din? (this one is an absolute pain fest!) they are all brutal (but at least far more fun and you can get far further before being crushed unlike carn dum) and so are many of the nightmare quests in the heirs of numenor cycle. Plus they are NIGHTMARE quests, specifically designed to be brutal. It really isn't that bad if you rack up 20 losses against a Nightmare quest because you signed yourself up for that. Just trying to beat the second last quest in a cycle should not be like playing one of the hardest nightmare quests....
Have you got Lake Town and Ruins of Belegost? Both very hard as well.

Do you play with the broken beats-everything and does everything Gandalf hero?

If you don't play nightmare, don't have these quests or play Gandalf I highly recommend nightmare and those quests and strongly disagree with your opinion that we don't have hard quests out there. There are a whole ton of difficult quests in this game, Nin-in-Eilph, To Catch an Orc, Battle of Five Armies, Dol Guldur etc and any time anyone new gets into the game people are incredibly quick to warn them of just how hard this game can be. It is definitely no walk in the park!

If you have all these quests and already play nightmare and still think we need harder quests (harder than carn dum, nightmare amon din and ruins of belegost) then you either play with incredibly overpowered decks or are doing something wrong. 

I definitely disagree that we need harder quests. Even some saga quests are downright brutal (helms deep and moria/balrog quest forget the name).

 

Not everyone is superman Seastan and also not everyone wants to play with broken cheesey gandalf decks. I do believe that a bunch of others have beaten it with specifically tailored decks or some of their stronger decks after a bunch of attempts but some people are taking it a bit far ("guys this is so easy why cant you beat it, why dont you play easy mode then, we need even harder quests!") and I feel they are either playing the quest completely incorrectly, are playing easy mode and not mentioning it or just got insanely lucky and won a single game that they would probably not be able to replicate without many many attempts. 

 

No it is not impossible or anything but many people play this game differently and quite a lot of people (like me) like to use decks that are strong but not the very top tier and still quite thematic (as opposed to throwing theme out the window and building the strongest and most unthematic deck possible) or like to use the same fairly powerful deck/s for every quest or even like to use decks with a fun or interesting theme (traps, noldor discard mechanic, etc there are so many!). When they build quests that can only really be beaten by top tier decks (except for what seems to be a few exceptions) or by specifically building up decks built just for that one quest I think it is a bit of a disservice to the majority of players of the game. 

This quest in my opinion is definitely the absolute bane of any player that is in the one/two decks to rule them all camp.

 

I get that its a deck building game but man, I really don't think there are THAT many of us that build new decks for every single new quest. I know alot of you guys build new decks and change up what decks you are using pretty **** regularly and have several decks at any one time but correct me if I'm wrong, the vast majority of people seem to build multiple decks far far more so to try out different spheres, different heroes, different thematic decks or cool ideas/combos or different traits. I bet there are so few people that build all their different decks based on a certain quest compared to those that build their decks based mainly on a certain idea, line up or trait. 

To get to the point, people deck build to create new decks with cool combos, themes or ideas far far more than people deck build for quests. 

 

Also people really need to stop recommending easy mode or asking if people have tried easy mode. I get that for some players this is definitely the answer but not everyone is ok with resorting to that, especially if you have beaten pretty much every other quest the game has ever thrown at you including most nightmare quests, all POD etc without ever having to play easy mode. 

 

If Carn Dum sets some sort of trend and we start to regularly get quests this difficult that are not Nightmare, PoD or right at the end of the saga campaign (when we have a million boons and will actually want the quests to be downright brutal because of this and because we will be on the doorstep of Mordor about to finish the saga campaign!) I will definitely stop playing. It is hard enough to find regular time to play a game of this nature that has so many moving parts, so much set up and can take an hour+ to finish a single game at times, especially if you play solo two handed that it will 100% not be worth it if 9 out of 10 games you are just getting absolutely hammered. The game is already hard enough and whats more we have really seen the developers curb back the power creep of player cards lately (making them more fun and combo-y than just straight up powerful) yet encounter cards do seem to still be getting stronger. 

Edited by PsychoRocka

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I've played this game from almost the very first release I'm pretty sure I know how to play. This game isn't exactly like playing warhammer with a 200+ page rulebook, it's pretty easy to know the rules. Unfortunately I don't post playthrough videos, but if you want to learn how to beat the quest watch seastan's video series if you think this quest is impossible. I'm not saying I'm as good as him but if you think I have to be playing wrong to beat this quest with a gandalf deck maybe you're playing wrong.

I've seen a guy who could beat nearly nightmare quest with a single hero hirluin deck. I wish I could take credit for that one. Seastan has said he beat almost every (or maybe every) nightmare quest with a boromir deck. People have beat every quest with song decks. I've beaten a good number of nightmare quests with two dwarf decks, and that was before the card pool was as good as it is now.

I'm not saying I can beat every quest the first playthrough but if you deck build for a specific quest you should be able to beat it, barring bad luck.

Edited by zeromage

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There's definitely no reason to think that Carn Dum's difficulty level will become the new normal, or even anything close to it.  As I pointed out previously, they assigned Carn Dum a diffiulty rating of 8, which is the highest they ever assign (Assault on Osgiliath and Shadow and Flame also got 8... saga and POD quests don't get ratings).  So they were intentionally making something very very hard here.  This cycle has some absolute softballs as well.  (Ettenmoors, Mount Gram).

 

I do want to see hard quests continue to be released.  While it may offend the sensibilities to play on easy mode, it offends the wallet to play on nightmare mode so.... no sympathy from me.  Give the players a variety of difficulty levels within the standard cycle, yes please!

 

edit: also many folks probably haven't had a chance to try Dread Realm yet, but it is waaaaaaaay easier than Carn Dum.

Edited by GrandSpleen

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I get what you are trying to say PsychoRocka but I think you weaken your point by going to far. Assuming that everyone who is beating the quest is breaking the rules or using Gandalf is not going to get you much sympathy.

 

There is a large (and growing) list of decks that can beat Carn Dum in < 5 attempts. Most of them use very strong cards, but that's what it takes to beat a very hard quest. When designing what is supposed to be a maximum difficulty quest, the developers are not going to factor in the possibility that players don't want to use Steward because it's out of theme of their Dwarf deck. Rather, they are going to design the quest to be a challenge for the best decks the current card pool can produce. Complaining that it can't be beaten with self-imposed restrictions is no more credible a complaint than not being able to beat Passage through Mirkwood with a Dale deck. Now, I like theme too, but I understand that it's weaker. Thankfully they have produced an easier mode of play for such circumstances.

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yeah see thats the problem though. Not everyone wants to play a dodgy as hell draw your entire deck first go song deck, abuse the **** out of boromir and make him a 20 will, 20 attack, 20 def, sentinel, ranged one man wrecking machine deck, or dodgy outlands one hero deck. People want to use cool powerful thematic decks that aren't cheesily powerful though, most of us at least. All power to those who do want to play these decks I just don't think one should be required to play them to beat a non-nightmare quest.

 

Also not saying you are playing it wrong I just suggested that perhaps some people are as there are quite a few saying they are beating it easily whilst others are just banging their head against it to no avail. Also wasn't implying any sort of connection between Gandalf hero and playing the quest wrong, I just personally hate that hero and think hes mega OP and so when people are able to achieve things with him to me it doesn't really count or mean anything because of course they achieved what they wanted with the most powerful OP hero in the game. I'm definitely not playing this quest wrong(at least I really hope not), hence the non stop defeats. I am incredibly meticulous and careful when I play this game as I am a big time rules stickler and would not be able to truly call a game in which I use house rules or bend the rules a victory so always try to 100% follow the rules. 

 

also have to say I disagree with your whole "this isn't warhammer so its pretty easy to know the rules". There are constant rulings from the developers that directly contradict earlier rulings, incredibly nitty gritty discussions about how particular cards interact that end in flame wars and people needing to ask the developers for a final ruling and even then that sometimes doesn't quench the arguments and a massive FAQ and Rules document as well as resources like this one specifically because the rules can be complex and intricate at times: http://www.kaybee.org/kirk/LoTR_LCG_QuickRef.pdf

Definitely not warhammer but saying the rules are "easy" is definitely something I disagree with. Not that they are particularly hard either but you kind of need to get used to the very unique way the game plays and the various interactions particular effects have and the order in which they resolve etc. 

 

just wanted to add no disrespect or nastiness intended from my posts we clearly just have very different opinions and thoughts on the matter!

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My point--the one I have been trying to get across--is that the quest may be difficult FOR YOU because you play with a specific style or strategy that the quest WAS DESIGNED to counter. The Dunland quests, in similar fashion, we're designed to counter a specific style, a style I happen to utilize. All my standard decks lost to those quests, but I just tried a different style and then I beat them. It was challenging and uncomfortable. I don't particularly like those quests, but I certainly don't feel like FFG did something wrong to me personally.

That is what I don't understand. Like, if you can't beat a quest with the type of deck you want to beat it with, then clearly the game designers did something wrong. It makes no sense. The designers have specifically said that they design the quests to counter player strategies. Isn't that what they are supposed to do?

The complaining really annoys me because if I beat the quest and don't experiance your "injustice" then it must be because I cheated or because I'm using invalid strategies that should basically be considered cheating. I mean give me a break.

Many people have beaten the quest, some even beat it easily, using a variety of strategies. The complaints are empirically wrong. When faced with this evidence, the complainers just double down and act like victims? Get over yourselves. Maybe you just need to keep evolving. The designers have no moral obligation to cater to your particular tastes or idea of what counts as a valid approach to deckbuilding. I just don't feel sorrow for you.

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No disrespect taken. Not everyone likes cheesy decks, but no one has said that they are required. What about Dwarves, or Ents, or Loragorn/Frodo, or Dunedain, or A Very Good Tale... are all these cheesy too? These are some of the top decks right now, and if there weren't challenging quests like Carn Dum they would just stomp through everything and be quite boring to play.

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I get what you are trying to say PsychoRocka but I think you weaken your point by going to far. Assuming that everyone who is beating the quest is breaking the rules or using Gandalf is not going to get you much sympathy.

 

There is a large (and growing) list of decks that can beat Carn Dum in < 5 attempts. Most of them use very strong cards, but that's what it takes to beat a very hard quest. When designing what is supposed to be a maximum difficulty quest, the developers are not going to factor in the possibility that players don't want to use Steward because it's out of theme of their Dwarf deck. Rather, they are going to design the quest to be a challenge for the best decks the current card pool can produce. Complaining that it can't be beaten with self-imposed restrictions is no more credible a complaint than not being able to beat Passage through Mirkwood with a Dale deck. Now, I like theme too, but I understand that it's weaker. Thankfully they have produced an easier mode of play for such circumstances.

I don't think you have fully understood the spirit of what I am trying to say, maybe I'm not really communicating well enough.

I don't even play full thematic decks and take plenty of liberties. I'm also not assuming that people are playing it wrong I just said that perhaps this was the case with a couple of people just because there is such a discrepancy between a handful of people being like hard? what? I beat it first go and a handful of people that only get a win after like 10 to 20+ games or not at all. There is a difference between having to use a good deck and having to use one of three or four broken/cheesey decks that have little to no theme at all and rely on some incredibly powerful combo that shuts the encounter deck down. Like for example look at the deck the developers posted alongside the news that this quest is almost out (the twins and arwen). I bet you that deck gets absolutely STOMPED by this quest. I really don't see us seeing eye to eye considering you are kind of like the ambassador for really clever really powerful decks that can break the game. Thank you for replying and sharing your opinion though dude. 

Edited by PsychoRocka

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I'm just gonna stop posting about Carn dum and its difficulty as clearly no one is going to see eye to eye in this case and things will probably only get heated and nasty instead :P

just gonna beat my head against it till I get a win and then never play it ever again.

 

Can't wait to get my hands on The Dread Realm!!! Sounds hard but much more manageable from the few posts I've seen about it. Pretty psyched to lay the smack down on Daecchanar at last! Alas he was not Alcaron/Ulchor like I jokingly suggested a while back  :D

Edited by PsychoRocka

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Why stop, we could have a nice web fight, Gandalf would be on my side :P (joking)

PsychoRocka, to start with you are one of the users I like to follow, but I do not tottaly agree.

I too had a bad time against it with my Dunedain Deck, lost two games on turn two, tweaked my deck and next three games got on second quest card. It was a progress, not enough offcourse. I too believe it is the most difficult quest i ever had, BUT i believe the first three -yes even the first one- AP of this cycle where among the easy ones, Mount Gram and Ettenmore did not trouble me for a moment, so it is not that the game is going to become very difficult as I read from some fellow posters.

Ok finally decided to play with a Gandalf Galadriel Glorfindel deck I have, which is mostly thematic, it is a bit Broken I have to admit (more or less after 10 turns i have all my deck on my hand so mostly i play whatever cards I want) but wanted to check if this quest was that hard. I won attempt one easily. Was i lucky, do not know, never tried it again cause since i know that this Gandalf deck has beaten everything, i do not like to use it.

Now Amarthuil hero came and i decided to try another Dunedain deck. Did not have the time yet, but will let you know when i do.

Do not despare I would like to say. I will end with a story of mine. There is one quest i played more rhan 50 games to win only one, which? Stewards Fear (not with Gandalf deck :P ) .... yes this. Never played it again. I just could not do it. I guess most of you did not play more than five games to do it. To win it i changed my hero lineup thrice. I have no answer why this particular quest. Maybe my mind could not master it. So maybe this is your one quest too :)

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see your exact experience just proves me right though haha. you tried with what was probably quite a good dunedain deck and just got demolished and stood no chance at all then played with the cheesemaster himself Gandalf and beat it first go....

 

yeah maybe this is my one quest... time will tell! Or i'll just beat it once and never touch it again because I honestly do think it is badly designed (not just difficulty, look at this thread for another example of why I think this is the case: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/194582-flippin-thaurdir/).

Probably the latter but we will see  :D

Edited by PsychoRocka

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The matter with this quest is not how tough or how soft is. There is no problem in getting some difficult quests from time to time.

 

The question is that this quest is in my humble opinion designed badly or with an "evil" purpose. To me it has no sense how brutal it is and I had to skip it after a lot of attempts with different decks. I could attempt this quest 100 more times until I get a chance pushing my luck to the limit, but I do not find that fun.

 

And it is a pain to think that the quest would be much better and balanced if they would have given to Thaurdir his power only when the first sorcery card is revealed from the encounter deck during the quest phase, not with every sorcery card revealed that way, specially when he is with the champion side up.

Edited by asfaloth

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