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thyrdtype

Resigning membership in the Jedi order

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I have a question about how membership in the Jedi order functioned just prior to its destruction.  Episode 2 implies that one can leave the Jedi order voluntarily, but not automatically be considered a dark side Force user (i.e. Obi-wan doesn't immediately realize that Dooku is a bad guy, just somebody who resigned from the order).  My question is this: Hypothetically, what would have happened if Anakin had simply gone clean about his marriage to Padme and quit the Jedi Order?  Would they have just let him go?  Would somebody have staged an intervention of some sort?  Would the Order have had him arrested or confined or even (gulp) re-indoctrinated?  Can a Jedi with philosophical differences with the Council (like a more extreme version of Qui-gon) resign their membership, or does the Order forbid people from quitting, seeing them as too dangerous to be loose?  What offences will get one kicked out of the Order, but are not inherently illegal outside of the Order(actions that violate the Code, like forming attachments like Anakin's)?

 

I assume that any Jedi who left the order would still have been in Jedi and Republic records, and therefore still killed by the Empire during the purge.  But as they probably wouldn't have been the first targets of Order 66, they may have had a lasting impact in the very early stages of the Empire.  In an upcoming story I have planned, I would like the PCs to piece together the history of some of these 'Ex-Jedi' in their efforts to pierce the lies the Empire has told about the Force.  Specifically, I wish to investigate the idea that Light-side force use is not necessarily synonomous with being a member of the Jedi order.

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Well, ok, in addition to Dooku who seems to have left peacefully and with no problems, there is another case that is specifically relevant to you.

 

Spoiler Alert for Clone Wars and Rebels

 

Ahsoka Tano, apprentice of Anakin Skywalker, leaves the Jedi Order.  They try to persuade her not to, but it's her choice.  They let her go freely and without any limits on her movement or occupation.  Having left the Jedi order the Republic no longer knows where she is and she survives Order 66 to return as a leading fogure of the rebellion in Rebels.

Edited by Squirrelsan

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Warning, mild spoilers - hints but no names or specifics if you want to take the chance

 

 

If you've watched Clone Wars and Rebels then you've already got an answer to some of this. 

 

Evidence from the the Clone Wars series suggests that the Jedi order does expel members for breaching the rules. That might be for a non=criminal infringement (getting married is forwned on by the order but doesn't make sommeone a villain) or for committing a crime (which still might not indicate that someone has fallen to the dark side, depending on the nature of the crime). In one particular case, the individual accused of committing a crime decided not to return to the order when their name was cleared. In that case, the Jedi don't seem to have done anything more about it, so presumably the same would be true of anyone who wasn't a criminal to start with.

 

 

It isn't entirely clear what happens to an individual's lightsaber in such a situation. Presumably Dooku originally had a more traditional blue or green blade before he switched to the standard Sith red, so perhaps expulsion from the order includes removing the lightsaber (the traditional weapon of the Jedi) but depending on circumstances, that may be all there is to it.

 

Anyone who was not an active member of the Jedi order at the end of the clone wars would have survived Order 66 - not in the war, no proximate clones to kill you. While the Empire may have known where to start looking for them after that, it would be fairly simple to hide and keep a low profile if you had the slightest hint about the danger (such as feeling a major disturbance in the force). I imagine that the number of long term survivors is limited more by the small number of ex-Jedi to begin with than the difficulty in them surviving. 

Edited by Trevelyan

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Anakin's a bit of a special case, with the prophecy and war and all; leaving the Jedi wouldn't do him much good because he would have been drawn back into the conflict anyway.  For other Jedi I'd expect the reaction to be more disappointment and concern, with a bit of condescension thrown in for good measure.  Expect some counseling sessions with a Master and a fair amount of guilt-tripping (intentional or otherwise).    For the being leaving it could be pretty rough, though; since they're taken in as younglings they have minimal experience with living in the wider galactic culture or having much of a "normal life" at all.   I'd guess there are modest numbers of Jedi who aren't content with their life in the Order, but who have no idea how to live any other way (can you imagine Jocasta Nu waiting tables in Dex's Diner?).

 

The Altisian Jedi are a less dogmatic splinter faction before and during the Clone Wars, led by Master Djinn Altis.  The Order let him and his followers go and don't really talk about them.  They mostly keep to themselves, although they're still do-gooders at heart and partially reconcile their differences during the Clone Wars to help defend the Republic. 

 

The records are there, of course.  The Temple's archives were doubtlessly more complete than the Republic's, but their condition in the aftermath of Operation Knightfall is unclear.

 

I think a fair number of padawans in the Agri Corps survived Order 66, and the same is likely true for even fully-fledged Jedi on more remote worlds.  How long they could stay ahead of the Purge is another matter.

 

 

Finally, there are other Force-using sects besides the Jedi and Sith.  The witches of Dathomir come to mind (there plenty of tribes, Nightsisters are just the most Dark-aligned and most famous), as do the Fallanassi, Baran Do sages, and Gand Findsmen.

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Warning, mild spoilers - hints but no names or specifics if you want to take the chance

 

 

If you've watched Clone Wars and Rebels then you've already got an answer to some of this. 

 

It isn't entirely clear what happens to an individual's lightsaber in such a situation. Presumably Dooku originally had a more traditional blue or green blade before he switched to the standard Sith red, so perhaps expulsion from the order includes removing the lightsaber (the traditional weapon of the Jedi) but depending on circumstances, that may be all there is to it.

 

 

Ahsoka turned in her sabers.

Edited by Daeglan

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Also in Clone Wars, Obi-Wan says to Duchess Satine that, had she asked him, he would have left the Order.

 

Thus being said, all this stuff about leaving the Order strikes me as weird, at least.

 

So, we have some rules which are meant to prevent you from taking emotional decisions which will lead you to the Dark Side. So you cannot fall in love.

But wait, you fell in love anyway, did you? Ok, then just leave the Order. This way you can take the same emotional decisions in the end, and on top of that we won't have any kind of control over you.

Edited by Jereru

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I always thought of the Jedi Order as something like a cult. It's theoretically possible to leave but you'll be bought up to be dependent on it and severe pressure will be applied on anyone who seems to think about leaving to stay (no I'm not very fond of them). Also I find it very unlikely that the Council doesn't keep tabs on anyone who does leave (as best as they can anyway).

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One thing to remember for the policy of letting people leave the order is that the Jedi want dedicated members who voluntarily work for the order and republic. If someone is truly unsatisfied with the Jedi order or their role in it then it's better to let them go then have resentment grow. They are required to give up their sabers as they are no longer Jedi. If they later break laws and the local authorities can't handle them then order will send their own knights and/or masters to bring them to justice. Count Dooku seems like the fist to leave the order and cause trouble, at least in resent history at the time he left.

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Count Dooku was the most recent of the "Lost Twenty," twenty Jedi Masters who left the order over ideological differences. He is also very critical of allowing those who fail to continue progressing in their Jedi careers to stick around in support roles. (See various annotations in "The Jedi Path".)

 

If you do decide to leave the Order... Get a receipt  -_-  to show the Empire later!

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Can a Jedi with philosophical differences with the Council (like a more extreme version of Qui-gon) resign their membership

 

In my book, that's an affirmative. One of my "behind the scenes" NPCs left the order when the Council decided to accept Anakin. A few of his friends left with him, along with their padawans. They headed for the Outer Rim to found a monastery of their own -- a quite place where they could do things their own way.

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Wouldn't giving up your lightsabers be a mostly symbolic gesture?  IIRC, building a personal saber is a rite of passage for Jedi.  So even if they leave the order, they can always go rebuild another lightsaber later anyways.

 

Also, the Force and Destiny book seemed to imply (I don't remember where) that lightsabers have almost become a ubiquitous symbol of Force use, no longer unique to a particular tradition.  With this in mind, I want my PCs to be free to pursue the careers and specialties in F&D without feeling tied down to the ideas or philosophy of the Jedi.  It is, after all, Luke Skywalker's destiny to revive the order, not some group of other random schmucks.

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The official reason that the Jedi Order would require its members to give up their saber is because its a symbol of the order and badge of office.

 

The secondary reason has to do with what others have mentioned. It's psychological. The saber is a Jedi's weapon an extension of themselves, leaving the order means leaving that as well.

 

And in both known cases of Jedi leaving the order they later appear with sabers that are not the standard Jedi green or blue. Red for Dooku and silver for the padawan.

 

 

Wouldn't giving up your lightsabers be a mostly symbolic gesture?  IIRC, building a personal saber is a rite of passage for Jedi.  So even if they leave the order, they can always go rebuild another lightsaber later anyways.

 

Also, the Force and Destiny book seemed to imply (I don't remember where) that lightsabers have almost become a ubiquitous symbol of Force use, no longer unique to a particular tradition.  With this in mind, I want my PCs to be free to pursue the careers and specialties in F&D without feeling tied down to the ideas or philosophy of the Jedi.  It is, after all, Luke Skywalker's destiny to revive the order, not some group of other random schmucks.

 

The crystal seems to be the only thing that is difficult to obtain with most other components existing in other devices. That could even lead to some stories of following the living force and going on a journey to obtain a new crystal and being reborn outside the strict path of the Jedi.

Edited by krosanreaper

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I would imagine the Jedi Order would keep tabs on ex-members, but wouldn't prevent them from leaving.  After all, as noted in TCW, they had the Citadel, which was a prison for "Jedi who lost their way".  That they found a need to create such a place suggests it wasn't uncommon, and if somebody left the Order they would probably bear watching in case those reasons were ultimately due to a quest for power.

 

Ahsoka probably escaped scrutiny because the Jedi were already stretched thin, but if, say, Obiwan had left with Satine they'd probably have sent an agent every so often to check up on things.

 

On the whole though I'd say there's a lot missing from canon.  How *does* a society deal with a group of people, or even simple individuals, who could run roughshod over the common sentient?  None of it is really addressed.  Maybe the Order had been so successful for so long, and so far removed from most people's lives, nobody gave it much thought.

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I would imagine the Jedi Order would keep tabs on ex-members, but wouldn't prevent them from leaving.  After all, as noted in TCW, they had the Citadel, which was a prison for "Jedi who lost their way".  That they found a need to create such a place suggests it wasn't uncommon, and if somebody left the Order they would probably bear watching in case those reasons were ultimately due to a quest for power.

 

Ahsoka probably escaped scrutiny because the Jedi were already stretched thin, but if, say, Obiwan had left with Satine they'd probably have sent an agent every so often to check up on things.

 

On the whole though I'd say there's a lot missing from canon.  How *does* a society deal with a group of people, or even simple individuals, who could run roughshod over the common sentient?  None of it is really addressed.  Maybe the Order had been so successful for so long, and so far removed from most people's lives, nobody gave it much thought.

No one checked up on Ahsoka because the Jedi not long after ceased to be. 

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If you accept that the Jedi had Sentinels, then they probably watched those that had quit the Order during the times when Sith-watching was on the wane.

Agreed, and since it had been 2000 years since anyone had seen a Sith, one of a Sentinel's main duties was probably checking in on former Knights.

 

Though, if you take Legends as is, different sects of force users were not exactly uncommon, I mean the Green(Corellian) Jedi were pretty different from the central Order. Just because you're at the party, doesn't mean you drink the kool-aid.

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Thus being said, all this stuff about leaving the Order strikes me as weird, at least.

 

So, we have some rules which are meant to prevent you from taking emotional decisions which will lead you to the Dark Side. So you cannot fall in love.

But wait, you fell in love anyway, did you? Ok, then just leave the Order. This way you can take the same emotional decisions in the end, and on top of that we won't have any kind of control over you.

 

The prohibition is against attachment, and its important to remember that the statement is that a JEDI cannot have attachment for it leads to the Dark Side. This is less about the Force and much more about the political position of the Jedi.

 

For instance, glowstick wielding Force User falls in love. Bully kills Force User's love. Force User kills Bully, goes batshit and kills Bully's family, and friends. Local militia comes to arrest Force User (with Jedi help if necessary). Dark Side is marginally strengthened from death of Force User and Bully's family.

 

Now, let's look at the same situation with a Jedi. Jedi falls in love. Bully kills Jedi's love. Jedi uses militia to put a lockdown on Bully's planet, then proceeds to systematically scour the planet until dead. Survivors spread tales of the Jedi scourging said planet, local planets in the Sector make claims that the Republic are targeting them using the militia and Jedi as soldiers. Republic turns to Jedi Council to figure out what the heck is going on, while trying to stop a major war from occurring. The Jedi have trouble with an internal review, because Jedi has manipulated evidence to implicate another party (said Bully) in staging the problem. Jedi and Republic respond, but confusion over issue continues to cloud everything and the issue potentially is never resolved to all parties satisfaction. Confidence in the Republic and the Jedi lessens. The Dark Side is greatly served.

 

I do not see them having to give up there light sabers they are personal property probably the only thing a jedi owns.

 

We have cannon sources (TCW) showing the need to turn in ones lightsabers, and the fact that its the only thing the Jedi owns is precisely one of the reasons why. Being a Jedi is to gives ones self totally to public service. To then renig on the promise is to enter the galaxy after the order as someone completely new. 

 

Wouldn't giving up your lightsabers be a mostly symbolic gesture?  IIRC, building a personal saber is a rite of passage for Jedi.  So even if they leave the order, they can always go rebuild another lightsaber later anyways.

 

This is it exactly, a symbolic gesture - in a great many ways the same as oriental monks being stripped of their robes when they are cast out. It's tied to a symbolic "birth" action of being stripped clean and then reborn into a new life. You can always rebuild a lightsaber, but that is now something you did as your new self, and not something you did as a Jedi in service to the Republic - its metaphysically no longer a badge of station at that point.

Edited by Kyla

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Warning, mild spoilers - hints but no names or specifics if you want to take the chance

 

 

If you've watched Clone Wars and Rebels then you've already got an answer to some of this. 

 

It isn't entirely clear what happens to an individual's lightsaber in such a situation. Presumably Dooku originally had a more traditional blue or green blade before he switched to the standard Sith red, so perhaps expulsion from the order includes removing the lightsaber (the traditional weapon of the Jedi) but depending on circumstances, that may be all there is to it.

 

 

Ahsoka turned in her sabers.

 

 

Wait. If we are thinking of the same Clone Wars episodes...

 

Ahsoka hands her lightsabers over to the guards when she goes to visit the prisoner. She then gets arrested for murder. Finding them on the floor during the prison break, she and looses one or both in the ensuing fight. Skywalker brings in Offee while Ahsoka is on trial, and then the episode ends with the Council offering to reinstate her, at which point she says no and walks off into the sunset with no mention of said lightsabers.

Edited by jbmacek

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Wow, this premise is really interesting.  Were I to have a character that left the Jedi Order, I might have it turn over the lightsabers for the poetry of it.  The ending of my old life, of my old ways.  the beginning of something new. 

 

I always thought of the Jedi kind of like a religious military or police force.  You join (or are raised in) these traditions, and take oaths that you will uphold the traditions.  If, at some point, you don't believe in the traditions any longer, or believe that others are perverting the traditions you hold true to yourself, you leave.  You are no longer part of the organization.  If the Jedi were to incarcerate or eliminate individuals who wanted to leave, it would be against the very principles they were expected to live by.

 

jbmacek, I also have an NPC that had once been a member of the Jedi council, but disagreed with how they were being used as a military force just prior to the clone wars.

 

TBH, conversations like this are why I love these forums.

 

--Trial

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My character loves the Jedi Order. We're in the middle of an extended clone wars at the present. But he also has a secret that would see him removed from the Order. Looking forward to playing that out when it inevitably arises. 

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Also in Clone Wars, Obi-Wan says to Duchess Satine that, had she asked him, he would have left the Order.

 

Thus being said, all this stuff about leaving the Order strikes me as weird, at least.

 

So, we have some rules which are meant to prevent you from taking emotional decisions which will lead you to the Dark Side. So you cannot fall in love.

But wait, you fell in love anyway, did you? Ok, then just leave the Order. This way you can take the same emotional decisions in the end, and on top of that we won't have any kind of control over you.

Keep in mind that up until the old Republic the jedi were allowed to be married and have children, and in some cases they trained their children as jedi, the thing is that during that very long (which was allowed) we didn't have jedi after jedi falling to the dark side, so the no marriage rule seems to be there in order to lessen even more the chance of falling to the dark side.

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Also in Clone Wars, Obi-Wan says to Duchess Satine that, had she asked him, he would have left the Order.

 

Thus being said, all this stuff about leaving the Order strikes me as weird, at least.

 

So, we have some rules which are meant to prevent you from taking emotional decisions which will lead you to the Dark Side. So you cannot fall in love.

But wait, you fell in love anyway, did you? Ok, then just leave the Order. This way you can take the same emotional decisions in the end, and on top of that we won't have any kind of control over you.

Keep in mind that up until the old Republic the jedi were allowed to be married and have children, and in some cases they trained their children as jedi, the thing is that during that very long (which was allowed) we didn't have jedi after jedi falling to the dark side, so the no marriage rule seems to be there in order to lessen even more the chance of falling to the dark side.

 

It also lead to a shrinking of the number of jedi. Since force sensitivity seems to have an amount of heredity to it. Having flings with non force sensitives lowers the odds of being force sensitive. 

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It also lead to a shrinking of the number of jedi. Since force sensitivity seems to have an amount of heredity to it. Having flings with non force sensitives lowers the odds of being force sensitive

Actually, no. That would keep the Force "genes" out in the galaxy and spreading. Especially as one would imagine them to lend an advantage in terms of 'luck' and 'intuition' even if not manifesting as full Force users. Whilst unless the Jedi were breeding with each other enough to not only maintain but have more children than adults, they would actually be reducing the proprtion of Force users in the galaxy. And I don't imagine the Jedi to be baby factories. Are YOU going to be the one to tell Luminara she has to have three kids?

I'm not actually fond of the Royal Family approach to Force usage. It seems to contradict what the Force should be and also diminish the spiritual aspect of it. It's not about how wise and mystical you are, it's about whether mummy and daddy made you a special snow flake. I see Anakin the vergence and his twins being something of an exception. But as is usual with Star Wars, you see something on screen once and everything is like that. Bothan spies? They're a species of spies. Jabba is a gangster? Hutts are a species of mobsters... Very tiresome.

But anyway, if you do go with the inherited Force as a big thing, then the Jedi order keeping to themselves would have been dooming Force usage for centuries. They abduct the naturally arising Force users in the galaxy and markedly reduce their chances of reproducing (even if they're allowed to sow their wild oats, it's a dangerous life with higher chance of being lightsabred to death). Maybe that's where Anakin came from - a whopping build up of Force with nowhere to go suddenly results in a spontaneous birth. Maybe that's the redressing of balance that was talked of and why his children (and maybe grandchildren) are strong in the Force - it's things coming back into balance.

Edited by knasserII

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