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Raider Class Deck-Plan (Forum help appreciated!)

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A while back, there was a thread somewhere around here on the crew complement of an ISD; you may find it helpful because it had some good feedback from military personnel about life aboard ship.

Sadly, I haven't been able to locate it.

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A couple of thoughts from a military perspective (Army background):

 

1. A platoon of infantryman is going to be approx. 45-50 personnel, so if all you want is a stormtrooper platoon, you are looking at about the same amount i would think.  Now, if you expect them to board other ships and actually assault folks, infantry is going to be able to realistically destroy an enemy group of about 1/5th of their force if that enemy is entrenched in a defense.  So, if that stormtrooper platoon boards a captured/disabled ship, you could expect them to assault it successfully if that captured ship has 10 or less personnel.  

 

2. As to living space, someone with Naval experience would be better to chime in.  Do a quick google search to look at living space, it's extremely cramped for the enlisted.  Coming from an Army background, i will tell you that there is very little consideration to comfort or personal space on combat vehicles.  The same goes for living space in barracks (although we're getting better for home station barracks).  I would think the enlisted rooms would be extremely small and hold 4-6 on bunks, with a common head (bathroom) and shower space for a group of about 8 rooms.  For the stormtroopers, maybe a large one room barracks/bay with a common bathroom for all the troopers, much like life in basic training: The bay from the link could be reduced, as the width of the room would be a little big for cramped ship quarters.

 

3. For crew complement, I think the earlier comparison to a submarine is pretty apt.  Here's the closest naval attack submarine specifications (the applicable ones anyways) from the US Navy's website:

 

General Characteristics, Seawolf Class

Propulsion: One nuclear reactor, one shaft Length: SSN 23: 453 feet (138.07 meters) Beam: 40 feet (12.2 meters)

Crew: 140: 14 Officers; 126 Enlisted

 

The numbers are probably pretty close to what the raider would have.  You could probably subtract 2 officers and about 50 crew to make up for the starwars droid elements that would do work in their stead.  However, if you add the Stormtrooper platoon, you putting 50 personnel back in for a grand total of 12 officers, 76 enlisted, 50 stormtroopers.  Lastly, it's worth reminding that operations are going to run 24 hours a day, so you can't skimp on the crew too much, as there needs to be enough crew for a minimum of 2, 12 hour shifts.

Edited by gunner1764

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Go check the wiki pages for the lttoral combat ship. It is small and highly automated with a crew of 40 (It uses 2 shifts not 3) and can add up to 75 more based on which mission modual is installed.

It also interesting that during trials it was restricted to 4 month tours because of wear and tear on the crew which may in fact be to small. Here is where droids would start to pay off. They do not need rest.

Edited by Rambler

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Another note. Despite the empire's general attitude, a ship this small is not likely to have brig or detention facility. It's not really meant to take prisoners, it's meant to fight. On the rare occasions when they do need to lock up a prisoner, he would probably just get locked in a crew cabin until the ship can transfer him to a facility meant to handle such miscreants, such as a star destroyer.

A ship outfitted for customs work, however, might be expected to make arrests and include a dedicated cell or two.

The overall impression I get from this ship is "cramped". Triple decker bunks that are shared for crew, tiny cabins for the officers, communal bathroom and dining facilities for the crew. I actually imagine ladders as being more likely than lifts. Lift shafts take up valuable space, a ladder just needs a hole in the floor/ceiling.

Watch some submarine movies, like hunt for red October, and pay attention to how cramped things are, and then realize that actual vessels are probably more so. My uncle used to comment that when his sub shipped out they would have crates of food and other consumables stowed in hallways and shoved into nooks around equipment.

Edited by Forgottenlore

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Go check the wiki pages for the lttoral combat ship. It is small and highly automated with a crew of 40 (It uses 2 shifts not 3) and can add up to 75 more based on which mission modual is installed.

It also interesting that during trials it was restricted to 4 month tours because of wear and tear on the crew which may in fact be to small. Here is where droids would start to pay off. They do not need rest.

 

Excellent idea. I did, before I made the post. Both classes.

 

The problem I encountered, was that the Navy seems to not be overly forthcoming when it comes to the deckplans of their newer more advanced ships.

 

(I tried looking for the Zumwalt plans too. No luck.)

 

 

 

As we are affiliated with the N.O.C.B.P. we will be making Customs-appropriate loadouts for the customisable areas.

 

 

And I just finished a Stormtrooper barrack, same size as a 8-room crew quarters block, but just one large room as per Gunner's advice. It has 8 stacks of triple bunks, as opposed to the 2 in each of crew rooms, as well as a row of lockers on each side. I do think the troopers would be more communal than the regular navy guys.

 

 

 

However, I might argue the compliment might be overall lower trooper-wise; as whenever we have seen them fighting anyone but the heroes, they have been incredibly effective.

 

In the Tantive 4 boarding vs entrenched defenders, I only saw 2 trooper casualties at the door vs the 8 or so dead rebels. Still may go higher with the numbers, just something to think about.

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the Navy seems to not be overly forthcoming when it comes to the deckplans of their newer more advanced ships.

I would actually be more inclined to look at WW2 era ships for inspiration, rather than modern naval craft. SW dogfighting is explicitly based on WW2 fighter combat, the militaristic nature of the empire would, I think, be more accurately represented by ships used in an active, all out war rather than modern pseudo-peace time with all volunteer military. Plus, probably easier to get useful statistics.

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I don't think a ship this size would generally have a detachment of Stormtroopers. More likely a Naval VBSS and counter-boarding team. 

The modular components that sub for the "cargo hold" might include one that acts as housing for Stormtroopers or - more likely - Imperial SOF. (I imagine Stormtroopers being utilized more as Marines and less as SEALs, Green Berets/SF, MARSOC-Raiders, &c. and the Raider would be ill-suited to being used as a space amphibious assault ship (mission of Star Destroyers, especially smaller ones like the Victory and Gladiator) or a space LCAC (the task of Sentinel assault ships and whatever it is that carries AT-ATs) and being much too large to be a space MV-22 (which is the job of the VT-49). More likely it would be a space submarine, space LCS, or a space revenue cutter, depending on mission modules.) I think the Raider is too small and too specialized to be utilized in a significant role as a carrier for Stormtroopers, except perhaps as carrying a blocking detachment to support Imperial SOF during raids. It also seems that having a significant number of Stormtroopers would hinder the ship's function, as it would likely complicate the ship's command structure, particularly if there are more Stormtroopers aboard than Navy personnel. 

 

I would also expect that the ships would have other modular components that enhance its luxury, as there might be a fair few moffs and other Imperial officers and dignitaries who don't rank their own Star Destroyer but desire something more potent than a shuttle - or perhaps who view using a Star Destroyer for their personal transport as a frivolity while shuttles are either too short ranged or vulnerable - as the Empire has very few fighters capable of escorting shuttles on interstellar journeys (vis-a-vis Senator Organa's corvette). And, of course, for dignitaries who might be touring areas where a shuttle might offer an unacceptably vulnerable target to rebel terrorists (where the Raider is carried inside the docking bay of a Star Destroyer until it approaches the destination. 

As for the brig, I would expect it to have a small brig under normal circumstances, just large enough for a couple of people, and very cramped. Most likely to be used for punishing insubordination, dereliction of duty, and drunkenness, but possibly likely to be used to transport prisoners when functioning as a cutter. The size of the brig would also indicate against the ship possessing a sizable Stormtrooper contingent, as criminals and rebels captured would be wanted alive for interrogation in a more suitable setting (such as aboard a Star Destroyer). 

Because of the ship's largely independent operations, I would expect it to be a magnet for officers keen for command and action, much like the VT-49 - one might spend a career aboard a Star Destroyer and never rise to command one, but command of a corvette like the Raider might be accomplished in five or six years. I would also expect, as a result of this independence, that it would have a sick bay capable of at least keeping crew alive and stable for periods of sufficient length that if the ship is badly damaged and unable to travel far or fast under its own power, that rescue by a Star Destroyer (or casevac by medical shuttles dispatched from a Star Destroyer or nearby base) might be accomplished. I don't know if suspended animation is a thing in Star Wars, outside of the use of carbon freezing, but if it is, it might see widespread use on board a Raider for both medical purposes - keeping badly wounded crew alive - and military intelligence and law enforcement purposes - a criminal or rebel in stasis doesn't need food or water, takes up little space, is incapable of attempting escape, and can be safely transported even in cases where the prisoner is near death, just as is the case with putting wounded crew in stasis. 

Edited by Vigil

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2.5 meter tall decks may be a good starting point but remember you need to add about .3 meters between decks and thicken the outer skin to reflect armor. Once you come up with the Armor plating thickness divide by 3 to get a rough deck count. Any unaccessible are become prime consumables storage things you may need like fuel air and water.

Depending on what you assume to be in the 0.3 meters between decks (only armoured structure vs structure+cables/lines/techno-stuff within 0.3), you could reduce ceiling height to 2.0-2.1m. Most people are below 2m, so that ceiling height is fully sufficient for a war-spaceship. And a spacenavy probably prefers to recruit short people over long people (they just fit better into cramped bunks/hallways/fighters).

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In the Tantive 4 boarding vs entrenched defenders, I only saw 2 trooper casualties at the door vs the 8 or so dead rebels. Still may go higher with the numbers, just something to think about.

 

 

I think how well the stormtroopers performed may have had a lot to do with a certain Sith Lord that was part of the assault team...

 

If you think about it from a tactics perspective, the stormtroopers should have been crushed coming through that breach.  Rebels, who were behind cover, just had to shoot their blasters as the troopers came in.  The troopers had no protection at all, were moving slow, didn't use ordnance (such as flashbangs), and were stuck in the "fatal funnel" as it's called.  So, "realistically" it was either Vader or Movie Magic that swung the battle in the stormtrooper favor by such a margin.

 

 

Because of the ship's largely independent operations, I would expect it to be a magnet for officers keen for command and action, much like the VT-49 - one might spend a career aboard a Star Destroyer and never rise to command one, but command of a corvette like the Raider might be accomplished in five or six years.

 

This is a great point Vigil.  I was thinking along the same lines and forgot to mention it in my earlier post.  Part of growing up as an officer in the military is the opportunity to command and increasing levels of responsibilities.  The lower commands prepare them for the higher commands.  For instance, the army has commands as officers increase in rank: company (150 troops), battalion (350-600 troops), brigade (3,000-5,000), division (15,000-20,000), etc.  Successful commands are great for an officer's career, and the higher commands are only given to the best officers available.  So logic would dictate that a Imperial officer with a successful Raider command would look good for promotion and show the capability to command larger vessels.

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Vigil, I agree that having troopers on the ship is unlikely. The design is not that of one a boarding craft - the raider has no docking ports/rings at all.

If the crew is small enough, they'd likely just have side arms on their persons.

 

What about being boarded? 20 designated troops in not unusual for a warship of this size (during wartime) I would suspect. Just because it's not obvious doesn't mean it doesn't have docking rings. Not having docking capability on a starship is ludicrous. The guns aren't obvious either when they are recessed into the hull.

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Vigil, I agree that having troopers on the ship is unlikely. The design is not that of one a boarding craft - the raider has no docking ports/rings at all.

If the crew is small enough, they'd likely just have side arms on their persons.

I dunno, even if you don't plan on boarding someone, it's seems prudent to have a few troopers on board, especially in a universe where boarding actions are common.

 

Even with sidearms; it wouldn't take a lot in Star Wars overpower a bunch of engineers and communications officers with pistols. One unit of commandos or alliance heavy troopers could seriously impair the function during a battle, let alone wipe the crew if they got to the atmospheric systems or some other vital system.

 

Not to mention any one of a billion anti-personnel droid models that could pull a horror-movie on the ship one room at a time.

 

You wouldn't have to take a whole platoon of troopers standard, but you would want a dedicated ship security force.

 

(Or even more pop-up turrets inside the ship.)

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I think in the cross section area you need to up the size of the engine reaction chamber and the main power plant.  I imagine these units would extend well into the ship... in Armada the Raider is an extremely fast ship with shorter ranged weapons, so despite how clunky it is in x-wing, on a larger scale this thing is a highly mobile knife fighter.

 

I also think that there needs to be a lot of space inside the ship that is taken up by the internal workings of the retractable gun batteries, various sensors, life support, and other aux systems.  The amount of room to move around inside the ship may be more limited than one would initially expect.

 

Those big panels that are like the TIE wings...those could be written off as a few different things.  Radiators, solar collectors, sensors arrays, stealth systems, shield projectors.  Personally I would go with some kind of stealth device.  Not perfect, but it lets the already fast raider make even faster surprise attacks on targets.

 

my two cents.

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My admittedly-dated RPG material indicates that stormtrooper platoons have four squads of 8 (each including a sergeant and corporal), commanded by a lieutenant and sergeant-major, for a total of 34.  That seems like too many for me, and it's entirely likely that they would be regular army soldiers seconded to the fleet as marines. The Imperial military follows the same table of organization, so the numbers are the same.

 

Personally, I view the presence of armed troops on board a vessel like this as being a tool of the Imperial loyalty officer (think commissar). Not everyone on board is a wild-eyed zealot for Imperial propaganda; some are there because they have to be, or because there aren't any alternatives. Some will be unhappy with their job, their posting on this particular vessel, or their mission. A few may be Rebel sympathizers, or possibly a spy. The loyalty officer and his goons are responsible for scaring everyone straight, usually by making an example out of someone.

 

As Forgottenlore said, a ship this size and with this mission isn't going to be impounding ships and imprisoning people; that's the job of the already-extant (EU) Imperial Customs Corvette, a considerably-larger vessel (with a smaller complement). Similarly, it isn't a commerce raider that stops and seizes merchantmen. It falls somewhere between an IPV-1 and a Lancer-class frigate. Like the Lancer-class, it's probably slower than a starfighter and would be used as a picket vessel on the fleet's perimeter during sublight operations. 

 

This is all conjecture, of course. As much as I enjoy vehemently debating completely fictional ephemera, I hope no one gets too worked up over it all.

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Alright got a grid up, just working over the whole thing with the essential rooms and compartments.

 

The engines are not on the grid right now: for the final plans areas may be pushed up a level or to the sides to compensate for the area of the engines/reactors.

 

The turrets seem to be remote-operated, and thus the gunner's stations will be computerized offices close to the Central Transit Corridor.

 

This puts them deeper inside the ship, and thus keeps them safer during battle.  (The central transit corridor is just the big hallway in the middle, CTC sounds cooler.

 

The living areas in the final plan will be placed further out from the center. Unless there are overly large crew rotations, the sleeping areas should be mostly empty during battle and will serve as ablative armor for the more combat-critical areas inside.

 

yuskEya.png

Edited by OneKelvin

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Just a quick thought, I don't think you'd see storm troopers on a corvette. Unless it happened to be transporting a sith lord. The imperial army had millions of troopers, while storm troopers were the elite soldiers of the empire, modeled after the SS in Nazi Germany.

Sorry to be a naysayer, but I figured I'd just throw my two cents in.

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So, a couple qick suggestions based on what I've read so far:

The galley would have at most one person, and then an auto-chef droid (something common in the rpgs.

The medbay would have one or two doctors/medtechs and possibly double that in droids.

If going off many Star Wars ships from other books the sleeping/crew quarters would be set up something like this:

The crew most likely hot-bunks on a ship this small, where two crewmen use the same bunk, and one sleeps in the same bed when the the other bunkmate is on shift.Also many star wars ships in many books show they use tripple high bunk beds, and have 2-4 beds in a room. Officers would share a room but not a bunk with another officer, and the captain would get his own room.

There is almost always a Storm Trooper presence on naval vessels, (usually to be the watch dogs in case of mutiny, not to mention to board enemy vessels). A ship this small would at least carry one squad of 8 troopers plus their sergeant (Stormtrooper squads are strangely numbered always in 9s ccording to the Essential Guide to Warfare and about a dozen other sources).

The rest of the crew would be Naval troopers (for security, boarding, etc- they are the Dark Helmet wearing guys in the backgrounds of most of the original trilogy) and then of course the naval crew and officers for the actual work.

I would suggest you look into the d6 rpg Darkstryder and Far Orbit campaigns....they handle deck plans of both the nebulon B frigate and a modified Corellian Corvette pretty well, they show all the different areas of a ship for the Star Wars universe. You can find the books for both to download on a website called: d6holocron

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Vigil, I agree that having troopers on the ship is unlikely. The design is not that of one a boarding craft - the raider has no docking ports/rings at all.

If the crew is small enough, they'd likely just have side arms on their persons.

I dunno, even if you don't plan on boarding someone, it's seems prudent to have a few troopers on board, especially in a universe where boarding actions are common.

 

Even with sidearms; it wouldn't take a lot in Star Wars overpower a bunch of engineers and communications officers with pistols. One unit of commandos or alliance heavy troopers could seriously impair the function during a battle, let alone wipe the crew if they got to the atmospheric systems or some other vital system.

 

Not to mention any one of a billion anti-personnel droid models that could pull a horror-movie on the ship one room at a time.

 

You wouldn't have to take a whole platoon of troopers standard, but you would want a dedicated ship security force.

 

(Or even more pop-up turrets inside the ship.)

 

Not a lot of boarding. 

In fact, the only time we see a ship get boarded it happens once. In one movie. Gozantis would probably make better boarding craft. 

 

My admittedly-dated RPG material indicates that stormtrooper platoons have four squads of 8 (each including a sergeant and corporal), commanded by a lieutenant and sergeant-major, for a total of 34.  That seems like too many for me, and it's entirely likely that they would be regular army soldiers seconded to the fleet as marines. The Imperial military follows the same table of organization, so the numbers are the same.

 

Personally, I view the presence of armed troops on board a vessel like this as being a tool of the Imperial loyalty officer (think commissar). Not everyone on board is a wild-eyed zealot for Imperial propaganda; some are there because they have to be, or because there aren't any alternatives. Some will be unhappy with their job, their posting on this particular vessel, or their mission. A few may be Rebel sympathizers, or possibly a spy. The loyalty officer and his goons are responsible for scaring everyone straight, usually by making an example out of someone.

 

As Forgottenlore said, a ship this size and with this mission isn't going to be impounding ships and imprisoning people; that's the job of the already-extant (EU) Imperial Customs Corvette, a considerably-larger vessel (with a smaller complement). Similarly, it isn't a commerce raider that stops and seizes merchantmen. It falls somewhere between an IPV-1 and a Lancer-class frigate. Like the Lancer-class, it's probably slower than a starfighter and would be used as a picket vessel on the fleet's perimeter during sublight operations. 

 

This is all conjecture, of course. As much as I enjoy vehemently debating completely fictional ephemera, I hope no one gets too worked up over it all.

I don't think a ship this size has the space for a political officer and their henchmen. 

Which I suspect would be another bonus for a Naval officer keen on command. And would likely make many officers promoted from Raider commands unconventional - at least by Imperial standards. Some officers might even prefer command of a Raider or maybe even Raider squadron command to commanding a Star Destroyer for precisely that reason. Such unconventional officers might be unpopular with certain members of Imperial high command, but if they're successful, that's all that matters. Command of Raiders and similar small capital ships might even make for a whole cult within Imperial command consisting of former Raider officers. If Admiral Thrawn is going to make it into canon, I suspect he would be the patron saint of Raider officers - and possibly a former Raider (or other corvette) commander, himself. 

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I would definitely reference the Fletcher Class Destroyer from WWII for a ship with a similar anti-fighter role.

 

At 114m in length and 329 crew, you can really see how they packed it in to maximize combat power. The Wikipedia page also has a cool cut away view of the entire ship that shows how the decks could be stacked with one end being significantly larger than the other, albeit reversed for the Raider (the Fletcher had a very short stern with a tall bow). As a purely military ship, it presents a good look at how little comfort is actually planned out for the crew.

 

The next two Destroyer classes built by the US Navy, the Sumner and Gearing class, basically used the same hull plan, adjusted it (barely widening and adding draft by something like 15 inches amidships) and added more guns. and just think, these deck plans are a full 30-35m shorter than the Raider.

 

From my perspective as an Infantryman, discomfort is the way of life and I can only imagine how the squids lived back in the day.

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Just a quick thought, I don't think you'd see storm troopers on a corvette. Unless it happened to be transporting a sith lord. The imperial army had millions of troopers, while storm troopers were the elite soldiers of the empire, modeled after the SS in Nazi Germany.

Sorry to be a naysayer, but I figured I'd just throw my two cents in.

 

Two cents are better than one!

 

As for your donation, it would really depend on your personal idea of where stormtroopers rank in the military hierarchy. 

 

Some people say they are the Empire's elite, others that they are the grunts of the Empire. I think of them as Marines: diligent soldiers drenched in a grand tradition and steeled by their dedication to the Emperor: but still just men and women. They aren't clones anymore, and the quality can vary drastically from unit to unit.

 

They are their best on the whole when they are (and I love this term!) storming. When made to guard areas, or occupy areas for a long period their effectiveness drops.

 

I think the ship would have a detachment of troopers for aggressive negotiations in an engagement, and regular security officers for defense of key positions.

 

(The stormtroopers are directly loyal to the Emperor; and because it is the Emperor is whom our heroes are directly combatting, we see them disproportionately in the films.)

 

 

 

 

 
I don't think a ship this size has the space for a political officer and their henchmen. 

 

Which I suspect would be another bonus for a Naval officer keen on command. And would likely make many officers promoted from Raider commands unconventional - at least by Imperial standards. Some officers might even prefer command of a Raider or maybe even Raider squadron command to commanding a Star Destroyer for precisely that reason. Such unconventional officers might be unpopular with certain members of Imperial high command, but if they're successful, that's all that matters. Command of Raiders and similar small capital ships might even make for a whole cult within Imperial command consisting of former Raider officers. If Admiral Thrawn is going to make it into canon, I suspect he would be the patron saint of Raider officers - and possibly a former Raider (or other corvette) commander, himself. 

 

It is my understanding that in agnostic militaries, the political officer takes the role of the chaplain found in the god-fearing ones.

 

He provides psychological and emotional support to the troops under his command, and provides aid to crew members under stress: except rather than using a religious base (" God loves you son.") they utilise the dogma and air of the state they are from ("Your Emperor needs you son."). 

 

They can remove troops from active duty if they are seen to be ill-fit for duty, or if they speak out against the dogma, but that role tends to be exaggerated.

 

(And let's be fair, if on the front lines a soldier started running away screaming "There is no GOD!" right in front of his comrades, the Chaplain might ask for his removal as well.)

 

TLDR Political officer and inquisitor are very different jobs entirely, and If the ship has a senior medical officer, I think it would have a political officer as well. 

 

Edit* Thrawn as the Patron Saint of Raiders sounds amazing.

 

 

I would definitely reference the Fletcher Class Destroyer from WWII for a ship with a similar anti-fighter role.

 

From my perspective as an Infantryman, discomfort is the way of life and I can only imagine how the squids lived back in the day.

 

The Fletcher?

 

Anti-air?

 

With a cut-away view?

 

 

This I have to see. Thanks!

 

 

(I've heard similar things from my army acquaintances, the navy seems nearly luxuriant in comparison!) 

Edited by OneKelvin

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So here's my guess at crew. feel free to chime in, please.

 

1 Captain, 1 Executive Officer, possibly another subcommander.

4-8 bridge staff dealing with scanners, comms, tower control etc. assuming only the bare minimum of 2 rotations)

8-16 gunners, thinking 2 gunners per turret - rotated.

2-4 deck officers - remember this can dock a TIE or two, and at the very least needs to be able to launch boarders in some way, though admittedly it does have docking rings at the side... maybe it's that. Additionally I imagine the deck officers would handle cargo - even the foodstuffs and fuels required for operation.

4-8 engineering/power control.

~2-4 quartermasters - potentially droids, but I suspect otherwise.

~16 Naval troopers.

~16 Stormtroopers

~10 Sanitary crew/misc plebs. half of which possibly droids.

~4 medical staff, most likely droids.

 

 

I honestly can't see the ship operating with anything less than these parameters.

 

Most star-destroyers had a second bridge, the primary being an observation area. I accept that the raider may be too small for this.

 

Assume each "team " slot adds an additional 4-6 specialists above the usual at least.

 

 

Additionally, I think a small very cramped brig with ~ 6 cells is likely. The empire do take prisoners, and this ships role will put it in position to capture smugglers more often than not.

Edited by DariusAPB

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Just a quick thought, I don't think you'd see storm troopers on a corvette. Unless it happened to be transporting a sith lord. The imperial army had millions of troopers, while storm troopers were the elite soldiers of the empire, modeled after the SS in Nazi Germany.

Sorry to be a naysayer, but I figured I'd just throw my two cents in.

Actually, Stormtroopers are the front line soldiers of the empire. The only source that ever mentioned "army troopers" was the old WEG rpg. Nothing else ever showed them. Rebels showed Ezra and a bunch of other tennagers were being trained to be stormtroopers. Now, there are vehicle crews/pilots, but stormtroopers are the infantry.

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