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unfassbarnathan

Flying off the board first turn

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A 'game' is only such as long as both players are having fun.

 

As soon as one of you makes the play experience awful it just becomes a maths exercise with bits of plastic and cardboard.

 

I find playing against four Scum Y-Wings with Twin Laser Turrets awful.  Is my opponent being unsportsmanlike by flying them?

Edited by DailyRich

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No, but you're not having a 'game' are you, you're having an unpleasant experience.

 

You know the answer to that one.

 

You have every right to say 'sorry i dont want to play that', fair enough you may have to concede a game in organised play but is 'winning' worth having a crap time?

 

If its a casual game i'd hope your opponent is a friend and you could say 'come on mate, thats going to be horrible for me to play against, could you take a different list this time?'

Edited by Gadge

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fair enough you may have to concede a game in organised play but is 'winning' worth having a crap time?

If you would rather concede then try your best to beat a list like that. Then frankly you have no pace getting involved in competitive tournaments.

That's the part that frustrates me the most. Is this insistence by some people to try and change the competitive circuit that FFG has set up into casual games. If you don't want to play against 'cheesie lists' and are going to have a fit because someone enforces the Rules as Written... Then play casual games with your friends or in a casual league.

Don't try to ruin the competition for those of us who enjoy it, with your unwritten rules, fau-sportsmanship and bastardization of Fly Casual.

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So many things to say, but whats the point.  Most of you will just read but fail to see the point.

 

The "spirit" of the rule.  You can't judge that.  You didn't write them.  You're interpretation is different than mine.  That's why Rules/Contracts try to be written in such a way as there are no loopholes or ambiguity, so that there are no arguments as to what they mean.

 

I think it's all agreed that casual games are that.  Casual.

 

Tournaments are where people are having issues.  To me a tournament is a competitive environment where the participants are out to pit their skills against those of other people.  Stress is a factor in tournament that one needs to overcome.  And if you are stressed or nervous and do something wrong, guess what, you screwed up.  Each player has time to set their dials, double check them before saying they are good.  If you fail to double check, that's on you.  Not me.  And if you're dyslexic, then you need to triple check that and have a system in place to make sure you're doing things right. 

 

A game is only a game if both people are having fun.  Well when you screw up, and I'm expected to break the rules to allow you to change something, and then I go on to lose.  I'm no longer having fun.  So if it's between you and me to have fun.  I'm picking me all day long.

 

You seem to like hypothetical questions, so here's one for you guys.  Round 2 player B sets left instead of right and should fly his ship off the board.  You let him change it because, comon, that was clearly a mistake.  Later in the game that same ship is about to finish your last ship off and is flying down the edge of the board towards him, and he mis-sets his dial again this time turning right instead of left.  Clearly he didn't want to do that.  What do you do?

 

If you fear you'll lose after being lenient, then you might not be good enough. You would have lost anyway if he didn't make that mistake.

If the only reason you would have won is by standing on the rules even when the mistake is obvious, your victory would not have been because of your competitive skillz.

Then again, your opponent should not make the same mistake twice and expect you to be lenient all the time.

The problem is that some tournament players, want to play competitive tournament and win as many games as possible (asserting their belief they are skilled players). For other some people, playing tournaments is one of the few ways to get a decent amount of games in, although they still hope to win.

Some people expect their opponents to be professional players and are not allowed to make a mistake, while others still see this as a game meant for both players to have fun.

The problem with the first expectation, is that no X-wing player is professional. This is no Olympics where victory/defeat will mean eternal fame/disgrace or being able to afford a new Ferrari or not and why the athletes are drilled 40+ hours a week into NOT-MAKING-MISTAKES

X-wing tournaments are visited by amateur players that want some competiveness and in that scenario you should expect mistakes.

If FFG would seriously up the prize-structure of their regionals and world-championships and attract players that are trying to make a living out of it, only then you can expect a level of professional play where mistakes SHOULD cost you the game.

 

A)Fear of losing has nothing to do with it.  Player B made a mistake, I did not.  I am not doing anything wrong in making him perform that maneuver.  I am not a bad sport or a horrible person.

B)If you're at a tournament just for fun, that's fine, but if you screw up.  Just go with it.  you're just there for fun anyways.

C)most Olympic athletes are amateurs for the record. 

D)again, I've mentioned this before.  You essentially saying that you would be willing to play differently for financial gain.  To me this make you way worse.  At least we play for the spirit of competition.

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A 'game' is only such as long as both players are having fun.

 

As soon as one of you makes the play experience awful it just becomes a maths exercise with bits of plastic and cardboard.

 

I find playing against four Scum Y-Wings with Twin Laser Turrets awful.  Is my opponent being unsportsmanlike by flying them?

 

My X-Wing experience is limited, but I played several MTG tournaments (and Online). In each format there were several decks that were totally not fun to play against. At first there was more variety, but especially Online I kept on running into the same dreadfull decks.

Tournaments is kinda the reason I am a bit fed up with Magic the Gathering. 'unfair' decks (that require a certain easy combo to win) keep dominating the meta and your choice is either to join them or try to out-hate them.

 

Anyway, my experiences with MTG doesn't really make tournaments interesting for me. It causes frustration sooner or later and that leads to the dark side.

 

 

 

A)Fear of losing has nothing to do with it.  Player B made a mistake, I did not.  I am not doing anything wrong in making him perform that maneuver.  I am not a bad sport or a horrible person.

B)If you're at a tournament just for fun, that's fine, but if you screw up.  Just go with it.  you're just there for fun anyways.

C)most Olympic athletes are amateurs for the record. 

D)again, I've mentioned this before.  You essentially saying that you would be willing to play differently for financial gain.  To me this make you way worse.  At least we play for the spirit of competition.

 

 

A: you said: "Well when you screw up, and I'm expected to break the rules to allow you to change something, and then I go on to lose.  I'm no longer having fun. "

So you would have lost anyway if he didn't make that mistake.

B: like I said it really depends on the tournament and my expectancy of professional play is also depending on the prize-support.

Let's say I organise a race and 1st prize will win a cookie, do I expect people like Raikkonen, Alonso etc to show up?

C: True, and still they train  at least 20+ hours a week, especially in the months before the Olympics. I don't expect the average X-wing tournament-player will do that

D: If there is financial gain, I will need to make a choice wether I do a job and play the game for fun and care less about losing, or wether I want to turn the game into a part-time job and winning is the #1 drive force. This doesn't change my standard of a social human being, but there is a difference between a tournament consisting of amateurs and a tournament of professional players.

In MTG there have been people that were trying to make a living out of playing tournaments and it's a whole different take on the game.

 

The higher the stakes, the higher will the quality be.

 

and in that perspective, the current prize-support (stakes) isn't large enough to warrant a super competitive atmosphere. If FFG would improve the prize-support, the more people would play tournaments, the more competitive players will be and the more difficult it will become to win a high level tournament.

Edited by Ingaric

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If I see my opponent turning straight off the board in a move that clearly no-one in their right mind would set conciously, especially in the opening moves, then I'd offer to reset his dial for him if he's an experienced player or just do the intended maneuver if not. 

 

If I would make such a mistake I would be grateful for the same behaviour. If my opponent would not offer that, however, he is fully within the rules and the mistake was mine, so no hard feelings. Shouldn't've screwed up.

 

If it is a judgment error when flying off the board (a 3 turn putting you half over, instead of a 2 turn which would've been safe for instance), then you're out. 

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fair enough you may have to concede a game in organised play but is 'winning' worth having a crap time?

If you would rather concede then try your best to beat a list like that. Then frankly you have no pace getting involved in competitive tournaments.

That's the part that frustrates me the most. Is this insistence by some people to try and change the competitive circuit that FFG has set up into casual games. If you don't want to play against 'cheesie lists' and are going to have a fit because someone enforces the Rules as Written... Then play casual games with your friends or in a casual league.

Don't try to ruin the competition for those of us who enjoy it, with your unwritten rules, fau-sportsmanship and bastardization of Fly Casual.

 

 

 

Not what im saying.  I've clearly said half a dozen times that i personally dont want to play in tournaments. 

 

What i am saying here is that no one is *forcing* you to play a list.  You have the *option* of defaulting if you feel that the experience would be *awful*

 

Talking hypothetical here...

 

edit;  and i'd rather be accused of 'bastardising 'fly casual' than flying like a bastard :)

Edited by Gadge

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I've clearly said half a dozen times that i personally dont want to play in tournaments.

Sorry, I wasn't really directing that at you, but rather the generic you, that I see with that kind of attitude on this message board.

My point is that if someone can't or won't enjoy a competitive event, then they should do everyone a favor and stay clear of them. It's unfair to everyone else if you go to a tournament and get upset when they don't play casually and allow take backs. It also won't be enjoyable for you.

So if you don't find the kind of game enjoyable where there is no quarter asked for or given, then don't play in events where that is likely the default style.

Which isn't to say there is never a case where someone will allow someone to fix a mistake, but no one should ever go into it expecting such a thing. Worse is if they ask for it, and it is IMO completely inexcusable for someone to get upset if if they're not offered one or turned down when asked.

Being a poor loser is every bit as being a bad winner after all.

Edited by VanorDM

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I've clearly said half a dozen times that i personally dont want to play in tournaments.

Sorry, I wasn't really directing that at you, but rather the generic you, that I see with that kind of attitude on this message board.

My point is that if someone can't or won't enjoy a competitive event, then they should do everyone a favor and stay clear of them. It's unfair to everyone else if you go to a tournament and get upset when they don't play casually and allow take backs. It also won't be enjoyable for you.

So if you don't find the kind of game enjoyable where there is no quarter asked for or given, then don't play in events where that is likely the default style.

Which isn't to say there is never a case where someone will allow someone to fix a mistake, but no one should ever go into it expecting such a thing. Worse is if they ask for it, and it is IMO completely inexcusable for someone to get upset if if they're not offered one or turned down when asked.

Being a poor loser is every bit as being a bad winner after all.

 

 

 

Totally see your point and you're right about poor losing being as bad as a gloating winner.

 

Thing is though,  *if* tournaments were a bit more forgiving, if there was a 'illegal set up' clause to prevent first turn fly offs or wrong direction start ups would that bring in more players than it annoyed?

 

You're right that you shouldn't perhaps *expect* a courtesy to be given over a fundamental mistake in set up and you shouldn't be annoyed if its not, but the OP wasn't really saying that here, its more a discussion, well i thought, on whether it was better to play a 'full game' from the off or whether you would actually get any pleasure or sense of achievement from rinsing a 60 per cent full force as his star player was wiped out before a shot was fired :)

 

I honestly don't know.

 

edit:

I do know, however,  that in games i play i tend to give my opponent the benefit of doubt in his turn/phase/action and would hope that they were as easy going when it was my turn.  Doesnt always happen this way but it does in the games i enjoy the most.  Then again i largely play against people i know and the short term gain from winning a game of xwing isnt really worth the long term cons of winding your mates up :)

Edited by Gadge

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Not only would it be unsporting, it simply wouldn't be fun.

Those are both subjective opinions, and not shared by everyone.

To me it's unsporting to expect break the rules. It is not fun to win because the other guy let me. To me the fun is coming back from such a painful mistake and win anyway. Or at least doing the best I can with what I have left.

 

 

I'm aware that my opinions are subjective. I didn't claim that it was factual information. I also didn't mention anything about anyone expecting to break the rules.

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Thing is though,  *if* tournaments were a bit more forgiving, if there was a 'illegal set up' clause to prevent first turn fly offs or wrong direction start ups would that bring in more players than it annoyed?

 

 

I wouldn't mind a rule making it impossible to fly off the board. Have such a maneuver punished by the opponent changing the dial to any maneuver, including reds.

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We have a house rules that 'off board' ships come on 'double stressed' at that point they left a turn later.

 

It just seems narrative nonesense to explode because you've clipped an invisible brick wall.

 

BUT we play mainly narrative and campaign games so stuff making 'sense' is more important than the result.

 

(as much as anything can make sense in the universe of 'star wars physics'  :)  )

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Thing is though,  *if* tournaments were a bit more forgiving

They're semi-forgiving now really. I think the problem is that some people get confused on what is truly a missed opportunity, and what isn't.

If someone moves a ship and takes no action for it. They can if the other person allows take their action later on. They could even boost or barrel roll if the other guy allows it. The whole point is that it's all at the discretion of the other player.

However in the OP's case, there is no rule that allows someone to change the dial after the fact, it's not something that's at the discretion of the players. That said I may allow it myself if I it happened. My issue isn't with people who do that, my issue is when people try to say this should be the default behavior. And make no mistake, most people think good sportsmanship should be the default behavior.

if there was a 'illegal set up' clause to prevent first turn fly offs or wrong direction start ups would that bring in more players than it annoyed?

Honestly I've never seen anyone set up backwards. I don't think it's actually an issue. As far as first turn fly offs... You make a rule for that, and then people want it for 2nd turn, and then 3rd turn, and then they'll think it should apply when it's the last ship on the table, ect...

I've been to 8 or so tournaments so far, store championships, regionals, local ones, and play every other wednesday in a league. I've seen one person that I'd consider to be a truly poor sport in that time. I think far too many people are expecting behavior that just isn't that common.

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If *anything* happens for either player that makes it really awful it then ceases to be a game, you know if you'd rather not be involved in it.

 

So, by that logic, anyone playing against Serena Williams is no longer playing "a game" of tennis.  Anyone playing Tiger Woods is no longer playing "a game" of golf; anyone playing against Manchester City is definitely not playing "a game" of football and the Boston Red Sox never play games at all.

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I've clearly said half a dozen times that i personally dont want to play in tournaments.

Sorry, I wasn't really directing that at you, but rather the generic you, that I see with that kind of attitude on this message board.

My point is that if someone can't or won't enjoy a competitive event, then they should do everyone a favor and stay clear of them. It's unfair to everyone else if you go to a tournament and get upset when they don't play casually and allow take backs. It also won't be enjoyable for you.

So if you don't find the kind of game enjoyable where there is no quarter asked for or given, then don't play in events where that is likely the default style.

Which isn't to say there is never a case where someone will allow someone to fix a mistake, but no one should ever go into it expecting such a thing. Worse is if they ask for it, and it is IMO completely inexcusable for someone to get upset if if they're not offered one or turned down when asked.

Being a poor loser is every bit as being a bad winner after all.

 

 

Totally see your point and you're right about poor losing being as bad as a gloating winner.

 

Thing is though,  *if* tournaments were a bit more forgiving, if there was a 'illegal set up' clause to prevent first turn fly offs or wrong direction start ups would that bring in more players than it annoyed?

 

You're right that you shouldnt perhaps *expect* a courtesy to be given over a fundamental mistake in set up butand you shouldnt be annoyed if its not but the OP wasnt really saying that here, its more a discussion, well i thought, on whether it was better to play a 'full game' from the off or whether you would actually get any pleasure or sense of achievement from rinsing a 60 per cent full force as his star player was wiped out before a shot was fired :)

 

I honestly don't know.

Tournaments (at least competitive ones that people are playing for something) typically don't have issues drawing people in. The popularity of the game continues to grow too so that isn't changing any time soon.

That being said there is no reason to change how they currently work. This also isnt an issue specific to X-Wing. What competitive gaming environment allows take backs?

The thing I think that gets lost amidst these topics is that by and large you can go to a tournament, play in a setting where someone wants to be cut-throat or extremely rigid about rules/actions/missed opportunities and still have a good time! It's more about the attitude you take into it. Yes, you will run into some jerks but whatever, you probably work with just as many or have to deal with some people you would prefer not to in real life anyway.

I find these topics are frequently overrun by a vocal minority. Set the tone with your opponent from the get go and have fun. I'll gladly give someone the benefit of the doubt on a missed action or something. Reveal a red when stressed and along the edge? I'm flying you off if it's a tournament. Unless you are 13 or a beginner. But I'm probably winning that one anyway.

See you guys on page 22, lol

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If *anything* happens for either player that makes it really awful it then ceases to be a game, you know if you'd rather not be involved in it.

 

So, by that logic, anyone playing against Serena Williams is no longer playing "a game" of tennis.  Anyone playing Tiger Woods is no longer playing "a game" of golf; anyone playing against Manchester City is definitely not playing "a game" of football and the Boston Red Sox never play games at all.

 

Maybe a novice, but there are certainly people who CAN play at the same level as those, and it would indeed be a game.  And I'm sure there are games where Tiger plays a more relaxed game - like if he's teaching a friend, or trying some new clubs, or lost a bet and now has to play like a Space Pirate. 

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edit;  and i'd rather be accused of 'bastardising 'fly casual' than flying like a bastard :)

 

I get that, I really do. But you can fly casual and still play competitively. Fly Casual was never intended to be used as a way to get away with a mistake or poor playing.

 

I do know, however,  that in games i play i tend to give my opponent the benefit of doubt in his turn/phase/action and would hope that they were as easy going when it was my turn.

For me the best games are the ones in which both sides are playing to the best of their ability, where my mistakes rather then allowed to be fixed are pounced on and the other guy uses them to his advantage. Because win or lose I know we both played by the same rules and did everything in our power to win fairly.

I'm not going to claim my way is superior, it's just how I wish to play. What I object to in the strongest terms is when someone else either says or implies that my method of play is inherently unfair or unfun.

The thing I think that gets lost amidst these topics is that by and large you can go to a tournament, play in a setting where someone wants to be cut-throat or extremely rigid about rules/actions/missed opportunities and still have a good time! It's more about the attitude you take into it.

Exactly, most of the people I played against at regionals were quite nice and had positive attitudes. Winning or losing they were fun to play with... Well other then the last game, that guy was a bit of a git.

Edited by VanorDM

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I doubt that the people advocating "Fly Casual" , even in a Worlds tournament, would expect their opponent to allow them to change their maneuver.   This is simply a case of "How woudl you handle this".    And even those of us who wouldn't let our opponent change their dial - we would STILL be very nice about it.   None of us would be like "Tough luck moron!". 

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If *anything* happens for either player that makes it really awful it then ceases to be a game, you know if you'd rather not be involved in it.

 

So, by that logic, anyone playing against Serena Williams is no longer playing "a game" of tennis.  Anyone playing Tiger Woods is no longer playing "a game" of golf; anyone playing against Manchester City is definitely not playing "a game" of football and the Boston Red Sox never play games at all.

 

 

But those are really 'matches' and so professional that the term 'game' is really just a throwback to their amateur roots.

 

Whereas even at its most competitive xwing really is just a hobby game.

 

I work in the airsoft industry (bit like paintball).   Its a 'game', some people try and push for it to be some sort of olympic 'sport' but its not its a game.

 

Comparing the world cup to worlds xwing really is apples and oranges.  :)

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Comparing the world cup to worlds xwing really is apples and oranges.  :)

Yes I could actually stand watching X-Wing... ;)

Edit: On a more serious note, I agree with what you said. And as you said it's a two way street. But far too often it seems like some people consider playing casual, with take backs, and the like as the default way the game should be played.

That means if one person is playing competitively and the other is playing casually, the default should be casual...

Myself I tend to find playing competitive games casually is a bit boring, and X-Wing is a competitive game by its very nature.

Edited by VanorDM

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Also that whole both players have to have fun thing is complete BS. I can't control the attitude or emotions of the person across from me. Some gamers are the type of people who as soon as they bump there ship they get mad and want to start conceding and throwing dice. I'm gonna respectable and nice and honestly I don't even need to be that but I'm a good human being. My goal there is to win, not hold your hand and make sure at every step of the game you're having fun.

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To me, it's all starts to sound a bit like the Touch-Move rule in chess.

 

When I was a kid, I played at kid's tournaments and some kids would gloat & call judges if I touched a chess-piece, insisting I should move it. 
Ofcourse this is an official rule and the pro's now know better than not to touch the pieces, but in low-level tournaments such rule-domination is a bit too much imho and several of these low-level kid's tournaments (regional championships) the judges where quite lenient.

 

To me it all boils down to what level of tournament we're talking about and what kind of players do you expect to find there. Newbies that play some of their first tourneys or experienced players that scour the land for high level tournaments.

And (I said it before) I think the amount of prize-support also helps in attracting the more competitive experienced players, so higher level tourneys attract a higher quality of player base.

in my opinion, there are some tournament levels where being lenient for such obvious mistakes is a more proper way to deal with it, while on higher tournament levels such mistakes will have to cost you.
It's just that in my opinion I don't see much difference regarding prize-support in the World Championship or some local tournament. Afaik there is no Qualification round (like in Magic the Gathering and most sports) and everyone can enter, which lowers the quality of player base.

So on a tourney which is free to enter for anyone (without Qualifications), I'd say being lenient in the first stage would be a sporting thing to do. Especially if it starts with a swiss system and then goes into a top 8. Once the tournament goes into top 8 I would not expect mistakes to be overlooked.

Edited by Ingaric

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in my opinion, there are some tournament levels where being lenient for such obvious mistakes is a more proper way to deal with it, while on higher tournament levels such mistakes will have to cost you.

This does actually exist already. The tournament rules lays out the different levels of tournaments. Casual, Competitive and Premier. Per the rule book Casual - Casual events emphasize fun and a friendly atmosphere. up to Premier - Premier events are the highest level of competition for Fantasy Flight Games tournaments

 

Seriously you dont play games to *enjoy* them with the other person?

As I said I tend to agree with you. But he's right in saying that I have no control over the other person. IMO what I owe to the other guy is at a minimum to be polite, not act like a jerk, and to play by the rules.

If someone can't accept that minimum as being good enough then the issue really is no longer under my control.

I mean if the other person starts to have a fit because they're not doing well and I set their dial to fly them off the table when they do a red while stressed, that's not really my problem.

Edited by VanorDM

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