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unfassbarnathan

Flying off the board first turn

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Hi! I'm the other guy.

The conversation was as follows:

OP "your dial says left not right"

ME "Oh **** - you're kidding me"

OP "Nevermind, just carry on. It's obvious what you intended to do"

ME "I'm so sorry but thank you - can't believe I did that"

If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to offer my opponent the same kind gesture at that inconsequential stage, regardless of whether I might ultimately win or lose.

This incident does not seem worth all the debate and hurt egos on this forum.

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Hi! I'm the other guy.

The conversation was as follows:

OP "your dial says left not right"

ME "Oh **** - you're kidding me"

OP "Nevermind, just carry on. It's obvious what you intended to do"

ME "I'm so sorry but thank you - can't believe I did that"

If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to offer my opponent the same kind gesture at that inconsequential stage, regardless of whether I might ultimately win or lose.

This incident does not seem worth all the debate and hurt egos on this forum.

The original post was intended to be about the possibility of requesting Soontir to fly of the board (something I did not even consider at the time) and there has been some good discussion on that. Some of the debate has got a bit ridiculous though (insulting other posters)

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Hi! I'm the other guy.

The conversation was as follows:

OP "your dial says left not right"

ME "Oh **** - you're kidding me"

OP "Nevermind, just carry on. It's obvious what you intended to do"

ME "I'm so sorry but thank you - can't believe I did that"

If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to offer my opponent the same kind gesture at that inconsequential stage, regardless of whether I might ultimately win or lose.

This incident does not seem worth all the debate and hurt egos on this forum.

The original post was intended to be about the possibility of requesting Soontir to fly of the board (something I did not even consider at the time) and there has been some good discussion on that. Some of the debate has got a bit ridiculous though (insulting other posters)

Yes, I think that starting a thread about it was okay, but the level to which people take this personal does not appear to be worth it. But sportsmanship does interest me (see the other thread).

It's just that I think that everyone has some idea about good sportsmanship. Even the people claiming that "if you follow the rules, you are allowed to do it" probably draw the line somewhere. If only from a practical perspective we need some standard of good behaviour.

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You honestly don't think winning at Nationals or Worlds carries more prestige and accomplishment than winning a game in your friend's basement?

 

Couldn't say.  But personally, I honestly think you're over estimating the "prestige and accomplishment" that comes from playing a game that involves pushing toy spaceships around a mat. 

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Personally I'd have them execute the wrong maneuver anyway. I mean... I'm not a terrible person - in casual games I always let people correct their mistakes as I remember how I made mine in days past, but if it's a tournament... no.

Now don't get me wrong, it's not about being a WAAC douchebag. Granted, I'd love to win of course, but it wouldn't be my driving factor. I would do it for him to learn not to make mistakes like that. It doesn't matter if he's stressed or distracted or whatever - when I was learning WFB my "teachers" were ruthless and they punished my terrible mistakes with utter destruction of my army. And I learned from that. Sure, that could've been too harsh for casual play back then, but boy, was it effective? Now I'm too soft to go so hard on new players in casual play, but if someone goes to a competitive event I believe they should do their best and avoid stupid mistakes.

I know that if I make mine (flew RAC out of the field because I got used to YT-2400 and forgot Decimators don't have hard 1), I take full responsibility for it and learn not to make the mistake in future and I expect the other guy at tournaments to do the same. I'm not going to gloat over the victory against his clearly weaker squad or tell him that his mistake was stupid and ridicule him, but I would just carry on and move forward. If he dropped out from the tourney, it'll be a lesson for the lifetime rather than "oh, planned to do that, let's just go on as intended" dismissing attitude.

Especially that I always repeat the golden rule of maneuvers to new players I play with - "look at the ship's arc of fire as you select the maneuver on the dial and rotate it in your hands for it to face the same direction as the ship", this way everyone can clearly tell where is it heading and if they make a mistake, it is because they weren't paying attention.

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Golfers certainly don't mean to land their balls in the drink, but sometimes it happens and when it does there are no do-overs, right?  ice skaters don't mean to fall during their routine at the Olympics, but when it happens it hurts their scores, right?  Why is this any different?

It's not any different.

But it's also not exactly the same.

When a golfer plays a round with his mates and has a few beers and a nice day out, he's not so strict with the rules. When he plays the US Open, it's a very different thing.

But the US Open IS a very different thing from a casual game with friends. It's ~$2,000,000 different, in fact. I can understand why a players attitude and behaviour would change when something like that is on the line.

A game of X Wing at worlds is no different to a game at your local store on a random week-night. Apart from a handful of cheap plastic and cardboard, there is NOTHING at stake. I can't understand why a players attitude and behaviour would change when all that's on the line are the prizes in a tournament kit.

 

 

 

So you're saying that because "there's nothing at stake", people have a free ride to be careless with their dials?  Please.  That's just downright silly.  Sure, I can see letting this slide if the player making the mistake is a really green newbie who is still learning how to play the game. But if a more seasoned player is too lazy to double check their dials (especially in an event), then a lesson learned is a lesson earned. 

 

The thing is, though, friendly "casual" games bend the rules quite a bit (allowing players to still take their actions if they've forgotten to, using printouts instead of actual cards, etc.), but that's because they are just casual games with your friends.  I think this is making some people perceive things as "unsportsmanlike" when it really isn't.

Edited by Darth Landy

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So I went out on a date with a woman. I taught her how to play X-Wing, and a few times she flew her A-Wings in the wrong direction. I offered to let her change it and she denied my offer, saying that she screwed up.

I then killed her Luke with Darth Vader, saying, "That's the way it should have been."

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At a National event, yah, I'd probably fly it off the board.

 

Mostly because if I did that myself, I would expect my opponent to do the same. Heck, I wouldn't even ask him to let me change it. Clearly I made an error, and need to live with it. (Though, if my opponent up front offers it without me asking, I will gladly take that offer, haha, but that's my want to win coming out).

 

It's a pain, and seems kind of mean, but at these events, it is best to follow the rules. Just because one situation occurred at the beginning of the game vs the middle of the game where it had minimal impact shouldn't be a determining factor in how well we follow the rules.

 

Casual games, certainly let him change it! You're there to play and learn, no prizes are on the line. When competing for things, though, holding all situations to a standard of "by the rules" is the easiest and simplest method to ensuring all matches are played fair, which I think is very important.

Edited by phild0

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You honestly don't think winning at Nationals or Worlds carries more prestige and accomplishment than winning a game in your friend's basement?

 

Couldn't say.  But personally, I honestly think you're over estimating the "prestige and accomplishment" that comes from playing a game that involves pushing toy spaceships around a mat. 

 

 

Don't be hatin'! This "prestige and accomplishment" is partly why we are all here. Finally there is some outlet for a subset of skills that don't hold much ground in the economic world. This gives us some way to pass time that feels good, AND revolves around the amazing universe of Star Wars.

 

Doing what we enjoy. We really can't ask for much more than that in our short lifespan. Not to get TOO dark, but, after all, in the end, no matter how "big" the accomplishment is, it is ALL meaningless.

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Some people have a competitive itch they want to scratch. Now obviously we all cant be pro athletes and make millions of dollars. That doesn't mean that just because we aren't at the highest level of any sport we shouldn't seek competition. Some people go out and play pick up games of basketball, others go to open wrestling meets, some do martial arts, some people play softball, some people play competitive video games, and some people play card and mini's games.  

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It does make you low character. It's not at all a slippery slope and the more "important" the game, the more necessary it is to not be a child and steal a major advantage from a mere mistake.

You guys have no leg to stand on here, you're talking about a slippery slopes and learning lessons when it's not at all relevant.

If someone tries to change their dial after the fact, that is cheating on the same level of being greedy and infantile that you are currently arguing from by insisting in stealing advantages from honest mistakes. This is not a slippery slope,nor is it difficult to distinguish between the two. We all know it when we see it, the example given in this thread is a far site removed from someone changing their dial after the fact, and to deny that is just further sleaziness.

I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt. Try not being a slime ball. You'll feel better about yourself.

So you Admit it is cheating.  If my dial says I'm doing a hard left, I have to do a hard left.   If that puts me off the board, and I try to change it to the other side, it's cheating.  Or do you let your opponents ignore their dial and just go whichever way they want?

 

 

try to keep up, please. The very post you're responding to answers this facile question.

 

This is getting embarassing. So as well as petty and selfish, you're also quite dense? 

 

So you'd let someone execute a maneuver that isn't their chosen maneuver, but then you'd call them names?  

 

Look there are those of you that would let someone fix this mistake and those that wouldn't.   It's fine either way.  There is a different level of play when it's a casual game or if it's a regional, or if it's Worlds.  If you want to let people correct mistakes while at a nationals tournament, then that is your prerogative.  

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Yeah, it's not the people who wouldn't do this who are throwing around the names, it's the "Fly Casual" crowd.

No, most of the "Fly Casual crowd" are saying stuff like "I think I'd probably let it go but wouldn't hold it against anyone who'd go another way".

There are literally, like, two people in the entire thread who're making this a referendum on character.

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Yeah, it's not the people who wouldn't do this who are throwing around the names, it's the "Fly Casual" crowd.

No, most of the "Fly Casual crowd" are saying stuff like "I think I'd probably let it go but wouldn't hold it against anyone who'd go another way".

There are literally, like, two people in the entire thread who're making this a referendum on character.

 

 

There is no "Fly Casual" crowd. The term has been hijacked by the militant casual, to make the term almost meaningless. The "Fly Casual" crowd is far to large and too diverse to really make it a useful term for designating anyway.

 

It is also why there are some who don't put much stock in the term any more. 

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....

Look there are those of you that would let someone fix this mistake and those that wouldn't.   It's fine either way.  There is a different level of play when it's a casual game or if it's a regional, or if it's Worlds.  If you want to let people correct mistakes while at a nationals tournament, then that is your prerogative.  

 

 

No, no, no, no.  There is only one way players can correctly react to this situation, which is to pick up the opponents model and fling it across the room while screaming "Hyperdrive Engage!"  After this, chuckle contentedly and loudly say "Looks like it's a new record for the Kessel Run."  All other nerds will bow to your superiority.

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But personally, I honestly think you're over estimating the "prestige and accomplishment" that comes from playing a game that involves pushing toy spaceships around a mat.

To be fair, not many of us push our toy spaceships around the mat.

Most people I know, lift the toy spaceships up and then reposition them. :)

Edited by TezzasGames

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So you're saying that because "there's nothing at stake", people have a free ride to be careless with their dials?

Nooo! That's not at all what I'm saying.

What I'm asking is why someone would let it slide in a casual game, but not at a tournament?

Like this guy:

At a National event, yah, I'd probably fly it off the board...

 

Casual games, certainly let him change it!

Is the prize at stake really worth so much that you'd change the way you'd play?

I see it time and time again. "I'd never let that happen in a tournament, but in a casual game it's no big deal".

The standard you hold people to in casual games is the same standard you should hold people to in competitive games. Because the rewards for winning a competitive game are not so high that they should change the way you play.

I'm a casual gamer. But I never ask nor expect favours from my opponents when I make mistakes, because it's not fair to ask my opponent to forgive something that he doesn't have to. He might want to, and my opponents often do want to forgive. Sure, take that action you forgot, they say. But the choice should be 100% theirs with no obligation put on them from me. And at the same time I'm more than happy to be forgiving myself. We've all got limits as to how kind and forgiving we want to be, though. No one wants to just throw the game in the first turn to give their opponent a crushing victory. Likewise, I don't think anyone would force an opponent to fly their ship off the board in the first turn if they accidentally deployed it backwards. We all fall somewhere in between on the spectrum of 'adherence to the rules'. We've all got our own interpretations of what is acceptable and what isn't, and the point of this discussion isn't some **** waving contest of 'my interpretation is more valid than yours!'

My point is that wherever on the spectrum you fall, however kind or generous or ruthless you want to be, you should always stay true to that. Deliberately being more relaxed when there are no prizes on the line tells me that you value the prizes more than you value other things.

That if nothing were on the line, you'd act differently, but because you might have a chance to win some plastic or cardboard, you're going to act this way...

That's not something to be proud of.

If you can stand up with your hand on your heart and say that you always maintain the same level of generosity, no matter what's at stake during the game, then that is something to be proud of.

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This happened to me at the 2014 Nationals, my opponent had set one of his TIEs facing himself.

 

We noticed it right as the timer was started for the first round, I demanded that he pick up his TIE and turned it so that it faced me - because if we were going to play, it was to be with our entire squads.

 

He asked me if I was sure (not fully believing me), and I was, and a fun game was had by everyone.

I can tell you that it would not have been a fun game for either of us if I had insisted otherwise.

 

 

Here's a possible inflammatory comment for y'all.

X-Wing is not only about playing by the rules, it is also about playing fair.

 

It is meant to be a fun game after all.

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About 2 and a half years ago or so I was in an X-Wing tournament. I had a pretty good hangover going but I was pretty confident that I had a solid chance at winning the whole thing.

My first match of the day was a 100% exact mirror match. We were both set up along the edge moving straight at one another in a joust. After the first round of firing I had a decided advantage. When we revealed our dials the next round I found out I had somehow selected a 1 right bank and flew a full health B-Wing off the board. It was clearly unintentional. My opponent knew it too. He immediately said "don't worry about it, you meant to go straight". I refused on the basis that I made the mistake and per the rules my ship had fled the battlefield. Had I taken his charity there was probably a 90% chance that I was going to win based upon the results of the previous round. I simply didn't feel good about winning in that fashion. I didn't lose another game the while day and wound up second or third.

I believe that's how it should be handled. I also don't mind if someone wants to handle it differently. If it's a Regional or higher level event you normally shouldn't get the option at all. If someone is asking for a free pass they probably aren't a good enough player to factor into the top spots of those events anyway though.

Edited by Galactic Funk

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Is the prize at stake really worth so much that you'd change the way you'd play?

It has little to do with the prize and everything to do with the why.

If I'm playing for fun I'll be more forgiving, because I'm not playing competitively. If however I'm playing competitively, then I'll play more strictly by the rules. What if any prizes happen to be on the line doesn't matter.

What matters is the point behind the game. Am I just killing time, or am I involved in a competitive event where both sides are doing their best to win fairly?

Edited by VanorDM

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Why do people think that if you are competitive and playing by the rules and not allowing a take back you are also being a jerk at the same time. It's not like we're saying no way you flew off the board you miserable excuse of a human jeez just sell your game now and and do us a favor and never play again. I flew a dude's z95 off the board at world's because he k turned, did a white, then k turned again. He thought he cleared stress but forgot. I wasn't a **** I just said oh man I think I get to pick your maneuver now, sorry.

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Just out of curiousity, what was his response when you let him make his move correctly.  Was he indignant or gateful for your charity?

 

And this is why I said it was skub.....

 

 

I don't know what "skub" means.

 

 

http://pbfcomics.com/20/

 

The page itself isn't, but some other strips are NSFW, so browse elsewhere at your own risk.

Edited by Otacon

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There are some good points on both sides.  Think about it this way - if you are playing a causal game and someone makes a bunch of mistakes - such as turning the wrong way, forgetting to use upgrades, like Predator, forgetting to take a 2nd action with Vader, or perhaps even using a primary weapon when a secondary would have been far superior (Syck with HLC for example, at range 3) -  Or even worse suppose your opponent turns one way and it doesn't fly them off the board, but they say they wanted to turn the other way?  (Assuming both ways seem like possible choices).  

 

would you remind them of their mistakes or let them correct them?   

 

  Now lets say you are at Nationals.   Do you still?   What if you are playing Paul Heaver at worlds in the final round and everyone around the world is watching - and he flies his falcon directly in front of you and forgets to boost out of your arc -  now it's time to shoot - do you remind him to boost out of your arc so that he can kill you without you being able to return fire?  

  

Sanctioned tournaments are a different type of event from game-nights and local fun tournaments.  It isn't about the prizes - it's about putting all those game-nights and months of practice to the test.  I look at it like this : Have I learned enough to play perfect today?  These type of events are the highest level of play.  Imagine if other competitive events behaved like the militant casual - "Oh the Patriots were off-sides?   No prob we'll decline the penalty, we don't need that 1st down that badly".  

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