Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
bluntpencil2001

Dodging bullets?!

Recommended Posts

As a gm, I have never had a problem with dodging, and my characters have never, ever, dodged a bullet. How you describe dodging is as important as any other description you, the gm, make. If you choose to say that dodging means that you dodge the bullet, that is fine, but there are countless other ways of describing the ability. 

Role playing is not an exact translation of the mechanics. If you, for example, make a move action and the fire a gun, you are not walking forward exactly three meters then stopping to shoot a single round. You are moving at a slow walking pace, approximately three meters every couple of seconds, while shooting your gun at a single shot rate, taking time to steady yourself in between. The same concept applies to dodging. If there is a scum with a autogun, and he takes a full round of shooting at you, hits you three times, and then you dodge two of the shots, this does not mean that only 3 of his shots would have hit, and you jumped out of the way of two of them. I would describe this as you seeing the scum take aim at you and you dive to try and get out of the way, he unloads his gun at you, but you role to safety before he can get a good line of sight on you, only one of the shots clipping you. Or perhaps several hit you, but because you made the effort to try and get out of the way, they only graze you, and while the total damage is the same, three shots hit, but each did less damage. Are they a tanky character? Perhaps they got hit by ALL the shots, but their armour was so great only a single round managed to hurt them, or the mass of fire did a bunch of blunt force damage equal to one attack. Maybe all they did was turn their body so that the bullets would hit a less vulnerable stop, or hit armour (covering your face with armoured hands instead of taking a bullet to the face)

There are also a number of ways of describing why the shots would never have hit in the first place. You threw a grenade at them last turn? Instead of describing this as "you threw a grenade and did X damage. Now they shoot you and you dodge the shots" It could easily be described over the course of several rounds "The scum goes to shoot you, firing a spray of bullets at you, but before he can get to many off the grenade at his feet explodes, stopping him mid fire" in that case he only got off a single decent shot, which hit. 

A character who is good at dodging may not be able to actually dodge bullets, but instead has a very good sense of the battle field, knows how to use cover, and can keep an eye out for someone who looks like they are going to attack them. 

It is totally fair to state that there are situations where a character would have a harder time dodging, or not be able to dodge at all, but that doesn't mean they should never be able to react. If a character has got himself caught out in the open, sure I might impose a penalty to dodge, as it will be harder for him then if he was near cover. Going up against a whole line of guns? Absolutely he might not be able to dodge, as no matter what he or she does they will be moving into fire. If a group of people, or several people with high fire rate guns shoots at you, I might say that you don't get to choose which shot you dodge, as it would be way to hard to keep track. If you do dodge a shot, it would be randomly determined which you dodged, so you cant just say you will let the las guns hit and dodge the bolter (If you did want to try that, I would give all the lasguns bonuses to hit you as you are not even TRYING to dodge them).

It is important to remember that you can describe any action in a multitude of ways, and the basic description of the action does not have to be what actually happens. Dodging can be any action which increases your survivability. An epic fail to hit could still actually hit, but just not do anything, an action prior to the turn could be responsible for the result. 

As A GM I have never had any problem with a character's ability to dodge, have always found that ranged is equally balanced, if not stronger (which it usually is), and have never had the impression of the game broken because a character attempted to get out of the way of someone shooting them. I have also never had anyone dodge bullets.

(sorry if my argument is hard to follow, writing is not my strong point, I kinda just vomit whatever thought comes into my mind)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Random junkie can dodge ONE bullet 1/6 of the time. Funny thing is, majority of weapon against said junky will shot many bullets to get sure to hit him and kill him. 

 

 

Getting hit 1/3 or even 1/2 of thime is waaaaay better than what happen in a real shootout. 

 

 

The junkie anecdote was meant to be a funny aside to my main point: Space Marines can in fact dodge a bullet just as well (or better in the case of a guardian) as most eldar, and they do have similar reflexes where explosives and automatic weapons are not involved, despite Nirgal's unsubstantiated claims otherwise.

 

I the end, when a look at your comparisons, only the best creatures/heoric/superhuman will be able to dodge anything close to be good enough.

 

And you don't consider the fact that, except officio assassinorum, they can dodge 1, maximum 2 times.

 

 

 

I did consider that fact, and decided it was not relevant enough to the topic I was addressing: Can space marines dodge a single bullet as well as an eldar warrior? Also the only reason I included any profiles other than the marine and eldar was to provide a baseline to judge normal human capacity for agility and dodging.

 

Humans dodge bullets: no. Things in dh that you can play are humans? Yes.

 

No, considering that PCs can get any stat to 60 pretty easily (aka with enough xp), I would say that they are, at the very least, toeing the line of superhuman, if not outright tap dancing straight across it.

 

You dodge with 30% dodge at least 1 attack/bullet every 3, against someone with 30bs that misses 2/3 of the shots.

Without moving in any significative way.

 

I actually agree that it seems silly that dodge only actually moves you when dodging explosives. In the campaign I ran, dodging allowed you to move your Ag bonus to scramble for cover in addition to the normal effects.

 

Don't tell me that every bullet in the ruleset must be considered a real bullet, if that was true we are talking of freaking muskets. Just as every attack with a melee weapon isn't an actual swing.

 

If they weren't considered a real bullet then why do we count ammo.

 

And on the point of rate of fire; iirc, most trained shooters take a few seconds to acquire a target and steady the weapon to the point that they have any chance of hitting (dependent on range and a great many other factors), and that is pretty much what a half action ranged attack represents; selecting a target, pointing the muzzle at it, acquiring it in the sights, steadying the weapon, pulling the trigger. The Aim action represents foregoing doing anything else with the other 3-4 seconds of your turn to make sure you get an accurate shot off.

So 1 pull of the trigger every six seconds sounds perfectly reasonable to me for medium to long range engagements.

 

Npcs stats are... well... you know... humans quicker then eldars says everything.

 

So let me get this straight: fluff doesn't matter when it says that space marines can dodge bullets, because the fluff is all over the place. And the relevant rules for the game in question don't matter because they don't fit the fluff. So exactly what are you basing your claims that space marines are slower than eldar on again, because its starting to look like you just arbitrarily decided that they are, and are arguing from that assumption.

 

As i said to me humans do not dodge bullets or lasers, so my house rules forbid things that to me are impossible. You don't think it's realistic i get it, i prefer to go with "do not bring a knife to a gunfight". 20m out in the open against someone with an autogun? To me you will be hit unless incredible luck.

I don't think that most anything in DH2E, or any of the other 40k RPGs, or most parts of 40k in general are realistic, because they aren't, and they aren't designed to be. This is a rule set/setting where explosives are laughably ineffective at injuring/killing people, and magical space wizard super-soldiers wield blades wreathed in their manifested willpower to fight daemons composed of the raw emotions of billions of people, is rather futile.

 

But whatever, you can play your super realistic combat simulator and I can play the cheesy 80s action movie that every campaign my group does manages to become, that's the beauty of RPGs, you can make them be whatever you want. Just realize that there is no "right" way to play the game, there is only what's right for you and your group.

 

*Edit: In my experience of having been a GM for a DH2E game, dodging works fine. To elaborate; despite most of my players having at least a 50% chance to dodge, I managed to cause critical dmg to most of them throughout the course of Desolation of the Dead via using sheer numbers against them, most of them didn't have Step Aside so I just made sure to put 3-4 zombies on each one. This has also been my experience with playing the various other 40k RPGs; most of the characters I've played had a dodge chance of 50% or better by session 2-3, and most of them have taken critical dmg anyway. For example, I played a Sgt. in an OW campaign; despite having a dodge of 50% he managed to lose 3 limbs in 4 sessions, just due to being the NCO shouting orders he got focus fired a lot. My Wych in a RT campaign has taken more dmg than anyone else in the group (other than the suicide bomber ork) due to only being able to dodge twice a round.

 

So in summary: if you are really having a problem with NPCs not hitting the players because of Dodge, then just have them fight better trained opponents that focus fire on the biggest threat, whilst a few other enemies suppress the lesser threats.

Edited by Draeshano

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So in summary: if you are really having a problem with NPCs not hitting the players because of Dodge, then just have them fight better trained opponents that focus fire on the biggest threat, whilst a few other enemies suppress the lesser threats.

 

A problem that I see often on this board when I read between lines. Many GM doesn't know how to play their characters strategically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your lasertag range is a desert without cover? Every body part counts fot a hit? Still you dodge enemy fire without moving?

I'm not saying you can't make hard hitting you, i'm saying that reactions do not make you move in any appreciable way, infact i permit to dodge if you have near you a cover.

From codex spacemarines do not have implants for superhuman speed, eldars are quickier than humans and their army is lightly armoured for that very reason. Even ghostplate is lighter than human power armour. Ingame eldars have unnatural agility, space marines no. Take away from eldar their superior reflexes and you have what?

You assume that your reaction is something that in the game is ruled differently, reactions don't make you move, if you say differently you are just creating another house rule that makes you move during reactions (Draesano's rule for ex. And it isn't coceptually very far from my owns actually).

Starting characters not trained in dodge have 15% chance of dodging a bullet (attack if you prefer) that actually hit, if they are trained?

If you shoot in full auto for a full round how many bullets the games says you are firing? Weapon rof is abstract or it doesn't make sense. You count bullets because you have a clip size, to me is like saying how much fire you can spit out before reloading or you are using muskets. Even round lenght to me isn't really appropriate, i would prefer something like cyberpunk: 3secs, but i never actually changed that or i would have to change all the actions system.

I said before that dodging bullets is silly to me in small shootouts and that the problem drops when you have a number of attacks nearing twice the reactions to avoid them. 3vs5? To me is a problem, 20vs5? Not anymore (narratively still but on the actual results side nope).

We all see the game in different ways, even the setting, i create my coerence following certain assumptions others will do it differently. The whole point to me is how reactions work and sorry but all your arguments assume: cover nearby, long movments or sperhuman awarness/reflexes; nothing of this is actually relevant to the paradox of reactions to dodge bullets in the middle of nowhere unless you are superhuman, in that case depends on what you consider superhuman and we have a discussion on the setting not on the rules.

You can zerg your players to make fights difficult but honestly i want to choose numbers and quality of my enemies with other priorities in mind. giving a bunch of soldiers smgs doesn't make them more dangerous than giving them laspistols, so you have to add enemies to counter the incredinbly high chance of not being hit under concentrated fire out in the open. Actually my ruling rarely comes into play in its hard form, players stick to cover and avoid being in the open, if they do they get hit that's how it works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 Still you dodge enemy fire without moving?

 

Who talked about not moving, except you?

 

 

 

 reactions don't make you move, if you say differently you are just creating another house rule that makes you move during reactions (Draesano's rule for ex. And it isn't coceptually very far from my owns actually).

 

In french we've got to term for "move". Either "déplacer" or "bouger". 

 

You can "bouger" without "se déplacer". No, the character isn't walking or running, or jumping 4 metres away. Actually, you need only to move your body something like 2-3 inches to force a bullet to miss you. In game rules, no, your character doesn't need to move in any appreciable way as metres.

 

 

 

space marines no. Take away from eldar their superior reflexes and you have what?

 

You're the only one speaking about taking this away. You don't see gradation. Space Marine are faster than normal men. Eldar are faster than Space Marines. The stats shows this very clearly. 

 

 

 

sorry but all your arguments assume: cover nearby, long movments or sperhuman awarness/reflexes

 

Only your arguments assume this. I speak of basic military/strategic movement/focus on not getting hit by a particular ennemy.

 

 

 

the middle of nowhere unless you are superhuman

 

Your choice if you're standing somewhere and someone points a gun at you and you wait patiently to get hit. Fact is, no-one in control of his actions will do that. But you can decide you would do that, that's your problem at this stage.

 

 

 

You can zerg your players to make fights difficult but honestly i want to choose numbers and quality of my enemies with other priorities in mind

 

Who spoke of zerging people? Who spoke of numbers over quality?

 

 

 

giving a bunch of soldiers smgs doesn't make them more dangerous than giving them laspistols, so you have to add enemies to counter the incredinbly high chance of not being hit under concentrated fire out in the open

 

Giving automatic weapons give more chance of many more hits, which make characters a lot more at risk of getting hit.

 

Having 4 basic guardsman with lasgun hiding until characters fall in their trap give shot that can't be dodge.

 

Putting people on fire with a flame-thrower/fire bombe can stop them from dodging and such.

 

There are many ways, with few basic characters, to threaten high level character.

 

****, I dropped Vindicare Assassins and Storm Trooper from DH1 ascension with basic cultist with autogun.

 

 

If you can't do that, it's by choice or ignorance, but not because the game don't let you do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As has been stated, none of us are assuming you don't move either. Ducking is a thing. As is weaving your upper body. And side-stepping which, considering your character is hypothetically standing in about a meter by meter square they actually have a fair bit of room to maneuver. Actually, technically speaking they have about a one meter range OUT from them in any direction, hypothetically speaking which is approximately one to two full steps, depending on the length of your character's legs. 

 

In fact, I don't see why you think you DON'T move when you use the Dodge skill, as "Dodging" implies movement.

 

 

As a side note. Take away an Eldar's speed and you have a highly intelligent, highly skilled race with vastly more advanced technology than the Imperium of Man, who also tends to produce much, much stronger Psykers. Eldar are probably more agile than Space Marines, I'll grant you, but that's mostly due to a Space Marine's power armor inhibiting them from being quite as nimble. In the lore, Space Marines are generally able to keep up with Eldar just fine. 

 

Either way, Space Marines ARE much faster than humans.

Edited by ColArana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding 'dodging the other guy's aim'.

 

You can't Dodge more than once, or twice, a round, that we know.

 

However, if you have ten people in front of you, all aiming autoguns with red-dot sights at you, you don't know whose aim to Dodge. You will, generally, choose to Dodge whichever guy decides to shoot, and rolls a hit, first.

 

Were you Dodging that guy's aim, or the other nine?

 

No, you dodged the bullet, not the aim. If you were actively dodging the red-dot sight, as opposed to the shot, you would need to pick the red dot you were evading, as opposed to the first one to hit you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, I'd like to point to the tabletop battlegame, which inspired the game to begin with.

 

Comparative skill determines whether or not you hit in melee. If your Weapon Skill is higher than the foe, you're more likely to hit.

 

Ranged attacks are not based on comparative skill, or the foe's agility. If your Ballistic Skill is 4, you hit on 3+, regardless of whether you're shooting a Guard conscript, or a Stormtrooper, who is probably much better at dodging. Those who can dodge bullets (Temple Assassins, Death Cult Assassins, those using Divination), get an invulnerable save to represent this. These characters are the sorts who would have Unnatural Statistics, or use psychic powers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dark heresy is not based of the table top game. It is based of the same universe that the table top exists in. Almost every rule in the table top is drastically different, and so comparing the two makes no sense. Both forms of combat, be it ranged or melee, use a totally different system for resolving the combat, as well as the psychic phase, interactions with cover, healing, taking damage, and countless other things. There is also a huge amount of things that are not in the tabletop which are in dark heresy, such as dodge, hiding (not counting simply being in cover), ammo, jumping and on and on. I have played the tabletop for years and can't think of a single rule in 40k which translates over to the RPG (maybe leadership? But if that were the case you would have to take a willpower test every time you lost a fight, and fear would impose a -30 to all tests, not the chart it uses). The two games use totally different systems for pretty much every single thing. Dark heresy is not inspired by the tabletop game, it is inspired by the warhammer 40000 universe, and the systems have no connection to each other. 

 

Edited by Twillera

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding 'dodging the other guy's aim'.

 

You can't Dodge more than once, or twice, a round, that we know.

 

However, if you have ten people in front of you, all aiming autoguns with red-dot sights at you, you don't know whose aim to Dodge. You will, generally, choose to Dodge whichever guy decides to shoot, and rolls a hit, first.

 

Were you Dodging that guy's aim, or the other nine?

 

No, you dodged the bullet, not the aim. If you were actively dodging the red-dot sight, as opposed to the shot, you would need to pick the red dot you were evading, as opposed to the first one to hit you.

 

How you explain that situation does not have to be that you simply dodge one of the enemies attacks. In that situation, it could be easily explained as you attempt to dodge all of their shots, but due to the massive quantity of attacks being thrown at you, your attempt at getting out of the way only helped you dodge a few of the shots (equal to one attack).

Also in a situation where you have a large number of guys points guns at you, it would be fair to say that they CANT dodge the shots, as there is simply to many shots, with no where to hide. As the GM you can determine when a player is allowed to do something and when they are not. If you come up with a situation where you can see no reason why the player would be able to do anything but dodge the bullets, then it makes total sense they should not be able to dodge, but that does not mean that there are not countless situations where they could still attempt it, at whatever modifier you wish to give them.

 

As a GM, you have the power to describe the results how ever you want. A shot that is dodged does not have to have the character dodging the bullet. The bullet could simple miss from the start, or the shooter did not aim where you were going to be, or the shot hit armour. As long as the end description of the event results with the player taking the appropriate amount of damage or lack there of, the rules and rolls that got you there are of no importance. A player who rolls a 01 to hit someone with a gun didnt role a 01 to hit someone, they pulled of an amazing shot, quickly ending the heretical cultist life. That player which dodged 3 laser shots didn't dodge 3 beams of light, she narrowly managed to avoid getting hit when the foul eldar used its xeno tech against her, her armour smoking from where the shot almost took her life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Sorry, these are objectively incorrect. 'A miss from the start' when you dodge a Vindicare's natural 1? No. The shot hit armour against a lascannon? No. The shooter didn't aim where you were going to be? Maybe, but that's what 'miss' rolls are for.

 

'A miss from the start' doesn't mean you're good at dodging, it means the other guy sucks. And if that's the case, why have Dodge at all? If it 'hits armour', why have Dodge at all?

 

A Dodge is a Dodge on the part of the character Dodging. It isn't an indication of the armour worn by the Dodging character, and it isn't indicative of the skill of the shooter. At all.

Edited by bluntpencil2001

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You say that moving 1,5m gives you the chance of dodging a bullet, i say no (reminds me of a mythbusters episode about dodging bullets).

You say you can react to enemy fire conciously avoiding the trajectory of a bullet, i say no.

I never said you should do nothing if you are cought in the open by firearms: i said that you will not dodge bullets that's all. Run for cover (movment actions), drop prone (reactions), dive for cover (reactions), surrender (free action), pray (depends on how zelous you are).

P.s. a red dot isn't what ffg says in the manuals.

The basic source material for warhammer 40k are the codexes of the miniature game, so to me they have quite an impact on how i see the setting and while the systems are different they tell the same story from different points of view. Can be said that the rpg ruleset is in anycase based on the miniatures. You like spacemarines dodging bullets? Fine. I don't and don't see any reason to make them dodge bullets.

I'm so stubborn that i even don't like the changes suffered from chaos during the last editions. (Or black crusade forced alignment to a chaos god and complete lack of chaos undivided)

Anyway we are mixing 2 different things: setting and rules.

Starting from the setting:

are agents of the inquisition (vanilla humans not psykers or other super guys) able to dodge bullets?

Are common humans able to dodge bullets?

Dodging bullets: actively and conciously avoiding firearms fire moving in 1.5m radious, without cover or other aids, from any distance.

Rulset:

The rules are able to recreate the setting?

Finally:

Do i like certain assumptions behind the setting or the ruleset?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

No, you dodged the bullet, not the aim. If you were actively dodging the red-dot sight, as opposed to the shot, you would need to pick the red dot you were evading, as opposed to the first one to hit you.

 

Choice you have in interpretation. This isn't what the game says.

 

 

 

You say that moving 1,5m gives you the chance of dodging a bullet, i say no (reminds me of a mythbusters episode about dodging bullets).

You say you can react to enemy fire conciously avoiding the trajectory of a bullet, i say no.

I never said you should do nothing if you are cought in the open by firearms: i said that you will not dodge bullets that's all. Run for cover (movment actions), drop prone (reactions), dive for cover (reactions), surrender (free action), pray (depends on how zelous you are).

 

Except rare cases in DH, bullets aren't following their targets if the target isn't at the place the shooter shot.

 

You contradict yourself. What difference is there between going prone and jumping on the side? Except that the first will impede your capacity to move after that and make you an easier target? Nothing. One is vertical, the other is horizontal. Either way, you move out of the line of sight. 

 

You say that people can't do nothing since you say that people can't try to dodge the line of sight of an ennemy, which is exactly similar to running in zigzag, going prone and such.

 

 

Except being a dumb statement, saying that you can do something but not the other, while all of those depends of the same physical principles, is worth nothing.

 

 

 

are agents of the inquisition (vanilla humans not psykers or other super guys) able to dodge bullets?

Are common humans able to dodge bullets?

 

Stop acting stupid, you can be better than that. No one here, except you, spoke of dodging bullets. We spoke of getting out of the line of sight of the shooter. If you can't absorb this, you just can't debate since you continue to invent arguments that hasn't been said to give you the occasion of saying BS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you are of the same size both standing and prone? Wow!

It's so true that staying prone makes you an easier target that soldiers out in the open are always standing and they avoid going prone and crawling.

You do not dodge the aim, even if it was true you do it by moving 1,5m. Call it what you want i call it dodging bullets (makes no difference really). Being harder to hit is totally different.

Runnig, crawling etc. Act on the size/speed of the target, you do not predict were someone is aiming and avoid it, you simply increase the difficulty of the shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Sorry, these are objectively incorrect. 'A miss from the start' when you dodge a Vindicare's natural 1? No. The shot hit armour against a lascannon? No. The shooter didn't aim where you were going to be? Maybe, but that's what 'miss' rolls are for.

 

'A miss from the start' doesn't mean you're good at dodging, it means the other guy sucks. And if that's the case, why have Dodge at all? If it 'hits armour', why have Dodge at all?

 

A Dodge is a Dodge on the part of the character Dodging. It isn't an indication of the armour worn by the Dodging character, and it isn't indicative of the skill of the shooter. At all.

 

I never used a lascannon in any example though, and that is not the point. The point is that you can describe the outcome in other ways than simple dodging bullets, such as making it hit the armour or something else. In the example of the lascannon, maybe the las cannon takes longer to aim and so you have a higher chance of getting out of the way or w/e. I am not trying to argue that every single case out there has a reason for dodge, some won't, I am trying to say that there are multiple ways of explaining a dodge role then dodging bullets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

ou do not dodge the aim, even if it was true you do it by moving 1,5m. Call it what you want i call it dodging bullets (makes no difference really). Being harder to hit is totally different.

Runnig, crawling etc. Act on the size/speed of the target, you do not predict were someone is aiming and avoid it, you simply increase the difficulty of the shot. 

 

Words were mean't to mean something. Dodging aim is dodging aim, dodging bullet is dodging bullets. The game says dodge, didn't precise what you do dodge.

 

In the end, bot things are the same (becoming a harder target, getting prone or dodging); it's moving BEFORE the guy shoot at you, for making you miss. If you get your logic to the maximum, you should just stop characters from using reaction, since getting into cover when an ennemy shoot at you is no more doable than jumping on the side.

 

If I follow your logic, characters should move in their move phase into cover, not having the right to jump into cover as a reaction. Because jumping into cover as a reaction or jumping on the side with no cover is the same; if the guy shoots at you before you move out of his line of sight, cover or not, you will be hit. So what you propose is limiting its application, but doing exactly the same thing that you hate in the system.

 

 

Either you're coherent and you dump reactions against firearms, either you don't block anything, since these are the same principles and if one work, the others doesn't.

 

 

 

 

I never used a lascannon in any example though, and that is not the point. The point is that you can describe the outcome in other ways than simple dodging bullets, such as making it hit the armour or something else. In the example of the lascannon, maybe the las cannon takes longer to aim and so you have a higher chance of getting out of the way or w/e. I am not trying to argue that every single case out there has a reason for dodge, some won't, I am trying to say that there are multiple ways of explaining a dodge role then dodging bullets. 

 

I agree; for example, when a bullet does 0 wounds because of TB soak, I describe it as a Near miss, for example (scratching just the flesh, bouncing on a wall and throwing shrapnels, etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just a jump to the left! And the a step to the right!...

Someone points a gun at you, you dive behind cover, bullets hit the cover. You dance the "time warp" bullets hit your face. Your logic concludes that no matter what, moving by 1,5m will make bullets miss you. So the logic conclusion is that cover isn't needed at all. I never said that. I said you cannot avoid being hit by just moving 1.5m, unless you go behind cover.

To clarify:

you are tied to a pole stuck into the ground with a chian 1.5m long, in front of you at 20m there's a bad guy with an assault rifle. Will you be hit when he pulls the trigger? How many chances you have of avoiding a full auto?

Now consider the same scenario with a wall just in your reach, same chances of being hit?

There's a huge difference between: being harder to hit and avoiding to be hit. In the first case you passively impose an higher difficulty to the action of the attacker, in the second case you actively avoid attacks that without your action would have succeeded.

Saying they are the same is like saying that a coin is better at avoiding to be hit then a building, to me makes sense that a coin is more difficult to hit because is smaller then the barn and the shooter needs to be better at shooting not because the coin has better skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just a jump to the left! And the a step to the right!...

Someone points a gun at you, you dive behind cover, bullets hit the cover. You dance the "time warp" bullets hit your face. Your logic concludes that no matter what, moving by 1,5m will make bullets miss you. So the logic conclusion is that cover isn't needed at all. I never said that. I said you cannot avoid being hit by just moving 1.5m, unless you go behind cover.

 

If someone points a gun at me and I jump to the right, there's a chance when he pulls the trigger he's still going to be aiming to my left. This is what the dodge skill represents. 

 

Of course if I try to do it, I don't have the reflexes, skill, practice or experience to reliably or consistently do this. I am, essentially your standard commoner, with the untrained Dodge, but that untrained dodge may still save my ass 1/10 times if the guy is only shooting one bullet at me at a time.

 

If I were to practice extensively, gain that experience, and improve my reflexes however, then my odds of pulling it off increase-- just like training your Dodge skill and Agility improves your chances of succeeding, respectively.

Edited by ColArana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just a jump to the left! And the a step to the right!...

Someone points a gun at you, you dive behind cover, bullets hit the cover. You dance the "time warp" bullets hit your face. Your logic concludes that no matter what, moving by 1,5m will make bullets miss you. So the logic conclusion is that cover isn't needed at all. I never said that. I said you cannot avoid being hit by just moving 1.5m, unless you go behind cover.

If someone points a gun at me and I jump to the right, there's a chance when he pulls the trigger he's still going to be aiming to my left. This is what the dodge skill represents.

Of course if I try to do it, I don't have the reflexes, skill, practice or experience to reliably or consistently do this. I am, essentially your standard commoner, with the untrained Dodge, but that untrained dodge may still save my ass 1/10 times if the guy is only shooting one bullet at me at a time.

If I were to practice extensively, gain that experience, and improve my reflexes however, then my odds of pulling it off increase-- just like training your Dodge skill and Agility improves your chances of succeeding, respectively.

The chance you actually dodge the shot are slim, even with training and top reflexes the chances of not being hit i doubt are about 75%. But it's possible. Even if you had a so huge chance of avoiding a single shot how can you possibly avoid a full-auto or even worst a sewed-off shotgun? That's why to me discussing of this makes sense only if we consider differently what kind of reflexes have inquisitors (so the setting), on the mechanical side with even top humans the rules to me do not make sense (for "top humans" i mean humans with olympic world record abilities). Edited by Nirgal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Someone points a gun at you, you dive behind cover, bullets hit the cover. You dance the "time warp" bullets hit your face. Your logic concludes that no matter what, moving by 1,5m will make bullets miss you. So the logic conclusion is that cover isn't needed at all. I never said that. I said you cannot avoid being hit by just moving 1.5m, unless you go behind cover.

 

But there is no difference. If the guy shoot at you when you're going to cover, following your logic, he'll touch you before you dive in cover. Of course, diving into cover is, in my opinion, easier than just dodging a step on my right. But that still the same; you must be faster than the aim of your adversary. That's easier, that's why in game you get +20.

 

 

 

 

The chance you actually dodge the shot are slim, even with training and top reflexes the chances of not being hit i doubt are about 75%

 

Yeah, 15% is very slim indeed. But with top reflexes and fighting experience, you can. 

 

 

 

Even if you had a so huge chance of avoiding a single shot how can you possibly avoid a full-auto or even worst a sewed-off shotgun?

 

That's why, with 15%, you'll get hit a lot of time even you succeed in dodging. The game already took into account what you're saying.

 

 

 

 

That's why to me discussing of this makes sense only if we consider differently what kind of reflexes have inquisitors (so the setting), on the mechanical side with even top humans the rules to me do not make sense (for "top humans" i mean humans with olympic world record abilities). 

 

Olympic world record abilities do not represent experience and eye-feet coordination against line of sight from seasoned warriors and tactically aware line infantry. They have good physical capacities, but you mix two things that have no link togeter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Even if you had a so huge chance of avoiding a single shot how can you possibly avoid a full-auto or even worst a sewed-off shotgun? That's why to me discussing of this makes sense only if we consider differently what kind of reflexes have inquisitors (so the setting), on the mechanical side with even top humans the rules to me do not make sense (for "top humans" i mean humans with olympic world record abilities).

 

 

The rules account for this. It is more difficult to avoid those full-auto or scatter bursts (or even semi-auto), as you need to match the degrees of success your adversary scored in order to not get hit, representing the immense luck and timing your character needed to avoid the shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you don't have 15% chance of not being hit, you have 75% chance. A shot is a miss 50% of the times (on avrage), when it actually hits with 30% agility and trained in dodge (horrible stats) you have a 1/3 chances of dodging a successfull hit. If you assume a 50BS from all modifiers against an avrage character with dodge it's very easy to avoid being hit.

 

Actually dodging a full-auto is easier than dodging a single shot, full auto impose -20BS and you gain a bonus hit every degree of success.

50BS -20=30BS, against let's say a 40 of dodge: means 30% chances of scoring 1 hit, 20% chances of scoring 2 hits, 10% 3 hits, against 40% chances of dodgin 1 hit, 30% 2, 20% 3, 10% 4. With a single shot you would have 60% chance of hitting against a 40% chance of dodging. That's why i usually change how single shot, semi-auto and full-auto work, they are quite the opposite of what they are meant to be.

 

The idea of reacting to a gun pointed to you is that you actually try to do something, now moving 1.5m doesn't break line of sight and a shooter can easly compensate if ever needs to (compensating for such a small movment at distance isn't making any difference), however if you can go behind a wall that's different. Actually to me is the same idea of "dodging behind cover", you do not actually dodge but "hide" just in time. I don't think this is a perfect solution but i like the compromise between realism/plausibility and cinematic action.

 

Olypics champions are almost superhuman for an avrage person and depending on their specialty they have quicker reflexes and better eye-hand coordination (shooting contests are olypic disciplines with even mixed specialties like biathlon). Genes and phisical/psycological conditioning of  world record olymipc champions makes them the best humans can achive on a physical side, we could call them "heroes" on a mythological powerscale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Olypics champions are almost superhuman for an avrage person and depending on their specialty they have quicker reflexes and better eye-hand coordination (shooting contests are olypic disciplines with even mixed specialties like biathlon). Genes and phisical/psycological conditioning of  world record olymipc champions makes them the best humans can achive on a physical side, we could call them "heroes" on a mythological powerscale.

 

In a very very very specific situation, which is so limited and specialised that it doesn't at all represent what we speak about here. Fine if it works for you, but that's not representative of seasonned warriors and specialised reflexes they get.

 

 

 

 

The idea of reacting to a gun pointed to you is that you actually try to do something, now moving 1.5m doesn't break line of sight and a shooter can easly compensate if ever needs to (compensating for such a small movment at distance isn't making any difference), however if you can go behind a wall that's different. Actually to me is the same idea of "dodging behind cover", you do not actually dodge but "hide" just in time. I don't think this is a perfect solution but i like the compromise between realism/plausibility and cinematic action.

 

Compensate, if you have time. That's what the dodge represents. Dodging 1.5 metres is more than enough to make a target hard to hit. ****, police officers shoot on moving paper targets and misses many time, and they never move as fast as a man can while dodging. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Olypics champions are almost superhuman for an avrage person and depending on their specialty they have quicker reflexes and better eye-hand coordination (shooting contests are olypic disciplines with even mixed specialties like biathlon). Genes and phisical/psycological conditioning of  world record olymipc champions makes them the best humans can achive on a physical side, we could call them "heroes" on a mythological powerscale.

 

In a very very very specific situation, which is so limited and specialised that it doesn't at all represent what we speak about here. Fine if it works for you, but that's not representative of seasonned warriors and specialised reflexes they get.

 

 

 

 

The idea of reacting to a gun pointed to you is that you actually try to do something, now moving 1.5m doesn't break line of sight and a shooter can easly compensate if ever needs to (compensating for such a small movment at distance isn't making any difference), however if you can go behind a wall that's different. Actually to me is the same idea of "dodging behind cover", you do not actually dodge but "hide" just in time. I don't think this is a perfect solution but i like the compromise between realism/plausibility and cinematic action.

 

Compensate, if you have time. That's what the dodge represents. Dodging 1.5 metres is more than enough to make a target hard to hit. ****, police officers shoot on moving paper targets and misses many time, and they never move as fast as a man can while dodging. 

 

Olypionic champions are ofc champions in one aspect of physical prowess but that's why they are the best at it, i assume players to be heroes that's why to me the upper limit they can reach is olypic levels of awesomness or slightly more (depends on circumstances naturally and may factors), that is still a lot compared to even athletic/trained persons. (came to mind the rules for asphixiation in the game lol)

 

in 5 secs a police officer can and will hit a paper target moving sideways, maybe not scoring as if the target was still but he will surely hit. In anycase being more difficult to hit doesn't even compare to the chance you have of dodging a ranged attack in the ruleset and the fact that moving increases the difficulty of being hit still doesn't mean you move contiously avoiding enemy fire that is what by ruleset happens using a contested roll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you don't like the Full Auto rules you could always use the DH1 variant of them. Full Auto was deliberately nerfed, because it was gamebreakingly overpowered in DH1, where you got a +20 to hit (which essentially led to Full Auto weapons being drastically superior to any non-full auto weapon). It gives a negative modifier because the folks at FFG presumably wanted players to balance between damage output and accuracy.

Edited by ColArana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...