Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TheRealStarkiller

How squadrons should have been

Recommended Posts

 

And he is the only man on the universe with this ability ... but seems to appear everywhere.

Major Rhymer is not actually a unique individual. Each Imperial TIE Bomber attack group promotes their best rapper to the position of Major Rhymer, who drops sick rhymes on Rebel ships. This rapper-pilot savant is then sent through intense mathematical training and is given a TIE Bomber with an expanded sensor array. He then leads TIE Bombers into battle while freestyle rapping out the coordinates to attack enemy capital ships.

 

So he's basically the Dread Pirate Roberts of the Star Wars Armada universe.

 

 

We have a winner!

 

Yes, squadron torpedo or missiles are smaller than ship ones.  A .223 caliber round is constructed with the same ingredients as an 88mm shell......but clearly one has superior range.  

 

I will admit that b-wings seems a bit too slow, but they are also deadly and when I am sending in my GSD to a target, when there is B-Wings waiting for me, it makes things super risky.  

 

If Rhymer is causing you issues, kill him.  He is not terribly hard to kill if you have your own squadrons.  The biggest issue ive seen when people cry "Rhymer is OP" is that you don't have the answer for his question.  They didn't bring squadrons and hes allowed to run rampant on the table.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How about if you would comment on the Bombers-should-be-able-to-attack-at-close-range-because-they-use-torpedos argument?

You've repeated that argument ad nauseam. It's no me l more meritorious now than it was the first time you mentioned it. Squadrons are fine as they were, they don't need to be made significantly stronger.

 

 

Yes, and I do this only for you, Herr Erlkönig. And I do this again and again and again, Herr Erlkönig.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Its funny how extreme slow B-wings are, even when there is no enemy or friendly ships around.

 

They still move agonizingly slow, making their slow attack vector moves, despite that there are no enemy ships/squadrons present to make a slow attack vector move against, when they simply are moving in transit from point A to B.

 

B-wings can marginally act as starfighters when given a squadron command.

The rest of the time they are forced to behave like a submarine, having to hope some poor sod accidentally/coincidentally bump into them.

 

Because B-wing pilots are so incompetent, despite being a select group of the best pilots the rebels have, that they can't overtake a silly ISD from a safe distance in their supposedly "faster fighter" and then attack it from an angle, they are supposed to have been taught trough their "expensive" training, that would normally flush out those that can't qualify to fly the B-wing.

 

Of all the games out there, PC, video, etc. this is they only game where the B-wing is overwhelmingly slow, with or without squadron command.

Well darn. . . I should take away all those Gladiator kills my B-Wings have gotten. . . I guess they are just too fast for them to have ever gotten those kills. . .
Did the GSD come to them, or could they all by themselves seek out a specific GSD and polish it of from any direction?

And how many times did you manage to kill of a GSD, when moving the B-wings up from behind, without a squadron command?

 

Just be honest most of your kills where made when the B-wings was placed, as a mine field, somewhere in front of their potential target.

But what are the B-wings worth once they are trailing behind an enemy ship, without an flight controller yelling at him to get his sodding act together and attack the darn large, hard to miss thing, that is gop-smack in front of him?

 

The should call it the B-mine, because calling it a B-wing, would be an insult to things that can actually wing their way towards an enemy and attack them.

Last night they rushed in and got kills on Gladiator's that decided it was worth getting close enough to attack. Well planned squadron commands are always worth it.

People forget that even though they are speed 2,they have a threat range of over distance 4 or so.

 

If B-wings can attack at distance 4, no wonder you can attack a faster moving target like a GSD. but are they not supposed to attack at distance 1?

 

And by they way you just admitted that you did it with a squadron command and that the enemy came to you, but have you ever done it without a squadron command, and having to send them after an enemy refusing on its own accord to close the distance?

Point being B-wings are to much dependent on the enemy coming to them, as well as squadron commands. They can't operate independently, or have the margin of speed to compensate for operating without squadron commands.

They hit hard when placed right, but if they get wrong footed once, they will be left behind in a running fight, and no matter how many squadron commands you give, it won't be able to catch up and participate in the fight for the rest of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kiwi

 

Great point. Ships and squadrons are entirely dependent by design. Dependent on the player using them correctly.

 

Also:

 

"They hit hard when placed right, but if they get wrong footed once, they will be left behind in a running fight, and no matter how many squadron commands you give, it won't be able to catch up and participate in the fight for the rest of the game"

 

Your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the premise. There are too many variables involved to say that Bwings will never be able to contribute to a game once a ship has escaped their clutches.

 

And, you cannot be this obtuse:

 

"If B-wings can attack at distance 4, no wonder you can attack a faster moving target like a GSD. but are they not supposed to attack at distance 1?"

Edited by Red Winter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kiwi

 

Great point. Ships and squadrons are entirely dependent by design. Dependent on the player using them correctly.

 

Also:

 

"They hit hard when placed right, but if they get wrong footed once, they will be left behind in a running fight, and no matter how many squadron commands you give, it won't be able to catch up and participate in the fight for the rest of the game"

 

Your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the premise. There are too many variables involved to say that Bwings will never be able to contribute to a game once a ship has escaped their clutches.

 

And, you cannot be this obtuse:

 

"If B-wings can attack at distance 4, no wonder you can attack a faster moving target like a GSD. but are they not supposed to attack at distance 1?"

Me being obtuse or not, do not answer the question, did he or didn't he attack at distance 4 with his B-wings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its funny how extreme slow B-wings are, even when there is no enemy or friendly ships around.

 

They still move agonizingly slow, making their slow attack vector moves, despite that there are no enemy ships/squadrons present to make a slow attack vector move against, when they simply are moving in transit from point A to B.

 

B-wings can marginally act as starfighters when given a squadron command.

The rest of the time they are forced to behave like a submarine, having to hope some poor sod accidentally/coincidentally bump into them.

 

Because B-wing pilots are so incompetent, despite being a select group of the best pilots the rebels have, that they can't overtake a silly ISD from a safe distance in their supposedly "faster fighter" and then attack it from an angle, they are supposed to have been taught trough their "expensive" training, that would normally flush out those that can't qualify to fly the B-wing.

 

Of all the games out there, PC, video, etc. this is they only game where the B-wing is overwhelmingly slow, with or without squadron command.

 

Lol. Brilliantly put mate.

 

I would like to take 4 squadrons of B-Wings anything and fly them at an enemy vessel without them thinking "I'll just fly past them and carry on as usual"!

I'm pretty sure that plastic toys don't think anything.

Now if the player was thinking, "hmm, I placed my plastic toys in a spot that let them get bypassed, I'll have to practice how to use them to get better." Then I think he'd be on to something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If B-wings can attack at distance 4, no wonder you can attack a faster moving target like a GSD. but are they not supposed to attack at distance 1?

 

 

 

 Squadron Commands. Moving Distance 2+attacking something at range 1 gives you a threat radius of roughly distance 4. Faster ships have larger threate distances, obviously. This isn't relevant to the competence of unlead squadrons, of course, but other people are debating a b-wing's ability to attack a fast-moving ship with squadron commands.

 

From a pure in-universe perspective, fighters do seem a little slow. On the other hand, if squadrons could fly circles around capital ships like they do in the films or other games, you'd lose most of the positioning that's at the heart of this game. So, assuming they're balanced from a game design perspective, that little nagging frustration is tolerable.

 

Now, the question of are they balanced? *shrug* I freely admit I have a 1-8 win record or something like that (And that 1 win was my first demo game and was very much a nail-biter), so I'm not exactly an authority. I will say, however, that in my experience sacrificing squadrons for another Frigate or corvette would only have allowed my opponent's squadrons to utterly ruin me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really. . . Do I really have to explain the concept of "Threat Envelopes" to people. . . Fine. Let's go over it. . .

A "Threat Envelope" is the space a fighter/squadron can travel and attack from while being able to get back to base for refuel and refit ops. It also represents a Surface to Air Missile (SAM) overall effective range to take out a target.

What does this mean for squadrons in Armada? This means that when using a squadron command a squadron moves -in this case a B-Wing moves distance 2- and then adds in Distance 1 after that move -which means that the threat envelope for a B-Wing is just a bit past distance 4 overall-.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

most squadrons can fly circles around the majority of ships.  Average speed is 3-4.  I will be playing tonight and I will have my iPad.  I made a squadron heavy 400pt list, hoping that I can capture some good squadron play on video.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

most squadrons can fly circles around the majority of ships.  Average speed is 3-4.  I will be playing tonight and I will have my iPad.  I made a squadron heavy 400pt list, hoping that I can capture some good squadron play on video.  

Okay, I'm away from my stuff at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Distance 3 is comparable to Speed 3 on the maneuver tool, and I seem to recall speed 4 on said tool being about a foot, same as the range ruler. I wouldn't call that something a squadron flying circles around a ship. Squadrons do have a slight advantage over a turning ship, but that'd only be really noticable when a ship is coming about (Please tell me that's the right term for a vessel reengaging)

 

Of course, my Corvettes have a tendency to get cut off from the engagement while trying to outflank and then spend of the rest of the game slowly catching up to other ships, so maybe part of the problem is I'm pretty much always at max speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really. . . Do I really have to explain the concept of "Threat Envelopes" to people. . . Fine. Let's go over it. . .

A "Threat Envelope" is the space a fighter/squadron can travel and attack from while being able to get back to base for refuel and refit ops. It also represents a Surface to Air Missile (SAM) overall effective range to take out a target.

What does this mean for squadrons in Armada? This means that when using a squadron command a squadron moves -in this case a B-Wing moves distance 2- and then adds in Distance 1 after that move -which means that the threat envelope for a B-Wing is just a bit past distance 4 overall-.

Well sorry for the confusion, when you said it moves at distance 2 and have a Threat range of distance 4, I thought you meant that it had a reach of distance 4 to attack enemy ships after you had moved 2.

Added that the distance 1 marker is a bit longer than the others, then it makes sense with the 4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

most squadrons can fly circles around the majority of ships.  Average speed is 3-4.  I will be playing tonight and I will have my iPad.  I made a squadron heavy 400pt list, hoping that I can capture some good squadron play on video.  

Okay, I'm away from my stuff at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Distance 3 is comparable to Speed 3 on the maneuver tool, and I seem to recall speed 4 on said tool being about a foot, same as the range ruler. I wouldn't call that something a squadron flying circles around a ship. Squadrons do have a slight advantage over a turning ship, but that'd only be really noticable when a ship is coming about (Please tell me that's the right term for a vessel reengaging)

 

Of course, my Corvettes have a tendency to get cut off from the engagement while trying to outflank and then spend of the rest of the game slowly catching up to other ships, so maybe part of the problem is I'm pretty much always at max speed.

 

 

the entire range stick is speed 5.  Fighters are less confined in their movements due to not having a maneuver tool to abide by, just a Do not exceed distance rule.  It also seems that most ship stay speed 2-3 in my experience.  That may change but typically its not hard to keep fighters harassing enemy ships with squadron commands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/186696-measuring-tools-in-cm/

 

Distance

1 = 7.6 cm

2 = 12.4 cm

3 = 18.4 cm

4 = 24.4 cm

5 = 1 foot or 30.48 cm

 

 

Range

Short = 12.3 cm

Medium = 18.7 cm

Long  = 1 foot or 30.48 cm

 

Ship movement

1 segment = 6.9 cm (straight movement)

 

Width of Squadron base = 3.4 cm

Edited by Tranenturm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really. . . Do I really have to explain the concept of "Threat Envelopes" to people. . . Fine. Let's go over it. . .

A "Threat Envelope" is the space a fighter/squadron can travel and attack from while being able to get back to base for refuel and refit ops. It also represents a Surface to Air Missile (SAM) overall effective range to take out a target.

What does this mean for squadrons in Armada? This means that when using a squadron command a squadron moves -in this case a B-Wing moves distance 2- and then adds in Distance 1 after that move -which means that the threat envelope for a B-Wing is just a bit past distance 4 overall-.

Well sorry for the confusion, when you said it moves at distance 2 and have a Threat range of distance 4, I thought you meant that it had a reach of distance 4 to attack enemy ships after you had moved 2.

Added that the distance 1 marker is a bit longer than the others, then it makes sense with the 4.

I am sorry for being terse. It was uncalled for. You were perfectly right to question what I meant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Really. . . Do I really have to explain the concept of "Threat Envelopes" to people. . . Fine. Let's go over it. . .

A "Threat Envelope" is the space a fighter/squadron can travel and attack from while being able to get back to base for refuel and refit ops. It also represents a Surface to Air Missile (SAM) overall effective range to take out a target.

What does this mean for squadrons in Armada? This means that when using a squadron command a squadron moves -in this case a B-Wing moves distance 2- and then adds in Distance 1 after that move -which means that the threat envelope for a B-Wing is just a bit past distance 4 overall-.

Well sorry for the confusion, when you said it moves at distance 2 and have a Threat range of distance 4, I thought you meant that it had a reach of distance 4 to attack enemy ships after you had moved 2.

Added that the distance 1 marker is a bit longer than the others, then it makes sense with the 4.

I am sorry for being terse. It was uncalled for. You were perfectly right to question what I meant.

 

Well I was being a bit terse myself, so I had it coming, as long there is no hard feelings between us.

One can have a heated discussion, when one is passionate about something like Star Wars, but as long as we are being civil about it, we can agree to disagree in a friendly manner.

I still dislike some aspects of the rules regarding starfighters and I'm not that fond of the B-wings overall speed.

You have just found the loophole how best to employ the B-wings, under from my point of view difficult to use circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

B-Wings are slightly over Range 3 Threat envelopes not 4. (You can see the measurements above, I measured mine, and disagree by at most a mm to those above, which I suspect is cutting distance.) 201 mm in total for a B-Wing squadron command. I'd call it about 3.25.  Range 1 is the longest, but Range 2 is the shortest.

 

The individual ranges for 5,4,3 are 59-60mm, Range 2 is 49mm and Range 1 is 76mm (Just about exactly 3 inches... The 3 equal ones are about 2 1/3 inches. 2 is about 3/16ths off from 2 inches, and the whole ruler is about 1/16 to 1/8th off (It's not cut perpendicular to it's length.) However, the distance 2 being not 2 inches is the printing, not bad cutting. They seem to have pulled a NASA on the range. mm here, inches here...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Squadrons are terribly ineffective at doing damage, unless they utterly change the squadron rules at an efficient cost (ie, Rhymer)

 

Please tell that to the 2 Demolisher's and a Gladiator that was killed last night due to my squadrons. In fact it was an A-Wing that helped push the damage into the critical zone so the activating ship could kill one of the Gladiator's.

I don't buy the 'other things are worse' argument. Yes, there are gimmicky rules in Armada, but that doesn't excuse the uninspired squadron rules. Yes, they can be effective. No, they're not underpowered, despite being very unforgiving.But they're counterintuitive. They don't act like squadrons should. It constantly feels like I'm herding a bunch of idiots around the table. They don't just get more effective with a squadron command, they make a massive leap from utterly moronic and deliberately useless, to lethal cold blooded killers. They could do more damage to the enemy by accident than they currently do without a squadron order.I wouldn't mind if a squadron order made them more effective, if they were more effective to start with.I know nothing is going to change at this point, the rules are locked away. But who ever posts on a forum with the intent of actually changing the rules? We're just spitballing, whingeing and wishlisting. Squadron rules could be better. They don't need a power boost, but they DEFINITELY need a character boost, IMO.

Wait, wait, wait.

Let me get this straight. So, because we were not listening into the radio chatter of the cockpit, during an "action movie" (which does not reflect real life and how it would actually work), squadrons don't behave like they should. . . Hmmmm well ok then. Let's use my experience from my days in the Navy.

I have been one 2 carriers. The USS Ronald Reagan and the USS Carl Vinson, I was assigned with VFA-25 "The Fist of the Fleet". Now, when squadrons were in patrol or doing missions they were in contact with a flight leader depending on their area of operations. In fact they show this in the Movie Top Gun during the initial scenes of the movie. The squadrons take commands from the command center in their area of operations. Those centers tell squadrons what mission updates they have, what mission priorities they have, threats in the area, etc. In fact Independence Day, another film with many fighters in it, they do this as well.

What makes you think that is not occurring in the Star Wars universe? Is it because you see into the points of the pilots life that a "director" would want you to see? Maybe those points don't reflect how things would actually work?

Hmmmmmm interesting that is.

 

 

I am in full agreement with you, I recognize that squadrons with fleet support will perform far better than squadrons without.  However, the flight commander isn't there telling them how to fly their own aircraft.  The flight commander recognizes that those aircraft are being flown by experienced pilots, and is giving them updates so that they can use their own skills and equipment to engage the enemy.  

 

But they are not doing this at the expense of all other ship actions.  Such a coordinated all-ship effort would be an extraordinary circumstance far beyond the direction of the flight controller, who would still be briefing them on threats and priorities in the absence of critical fleet-wide tactical updates.  The squadrons would still know the location of enemy fighters, and which might need to be intercepted to protect the carrier or other aircraft operating in the area.  They would certainly not be going into a hostile territory completely unprepared to open fire on arrival.  And this is before accounting for the inclusion of advanced tactical computers (astromech droids) capable of interpreting raw data and feeding it to the shipboard systems far faster than the vocal commands of the flight commander.

 

The squadron command should reflect the idea of coordinated ship-squadron tactical maneuvers designed to simultaneously engage ships and/or squadrons to achieve a single critical objective.  It should not represent the idea of squadrons being completely unprepared and unwilling to fight unless given explicit orders for every action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Squadrons are terribly ineffective at doing damage, unless they utterly change the squadron rules at an efficient cost (ie, Rhymer)

Please tell that to the 2 Demolisher's and a Gladiator that was killed last night due to my squadrons. In fact it was an A-Wing that helped push the damage into the critical zone so the activating ship could kill one of the Gladiator's.

I don't buy the 'other things are worse' argument. Yes, there are gimmicky rules in Armada, but that doesn't excuse the uninspired squadron rules. Yes, they can be effective. No, they're not underpowered, despite being very unforgiving.But they're counterintuitive. They don't act like squadrons should. It constantly feels like I'm herding a bunch of idiots around the table. They don't just get more effective with a squadron command, they make a massive leap from utterly moronic and deliberately useless, to lethal cold blooded killers. They could do more damage to the enemy by accident than they currently do without a squadron order.I wouldn't mind if a squadron order made them more effective, if they were more effective to start with.I know nothing is going to change at this point, the rules are locked away. But who ever posts on a forum with the intent of actually changing the rules? We're just spitballing, whingeing and wishlisting. Squadron rules could be better. They don't need a power boost, but they DEFINITELY need a character boost, IMO.

Wait, wait, wait.

Let me get this straight. So, because we were not listening into the radio chatter of the cockpit, during an "action movie" (which does not reflect real life and how it would actually work), squadrons don't behave like they should. . . Hmmmm well ok then. Let's use my experience from my days in the Navy.

I have been one 2 carriers. The USS Ronald Reagan and the USS Carl Vinson, I was assigned with VFA-25 "The Fist of the Fleet". Now, when squadrons were in patrol or doing missions they were in contact with a flight leader depending on their area of operations. In fact they show this in the Movie Top Gun during the initial scenes of the movie. The squadrons take commands from the command center in their area of operations. Those centers tell squadrons what mission updates they have, what mission priorities they have, threats in the area, etc. In fact Independence Day, another film with many fighters in it, they do this as well.

What makes you think that is not occurring in the Star Wars universe? Is it because you see into the points of the pilots life that a "director" would want you to see? Maybe those points don't reflect how things would actually work?

Hmmmmmm interesting that is.

 

I am in full agreement with you, I recognize that squadrons with fleet support will perform far better than squadrons without.  However, the flight commander isn't there telling them how to fly their own aircraft.  The flight commander recognizes that those aircraft are being flown by experienced pilots, and is giving them updates so that they can use their own skills and equipment to engage the enemy.  

 

But they are not doing this at the expense of all other ship actions.  Such a coordinated all-ship effort would be an extraordinary circumstance far beyond the direction of the flight controller, who would still be briefing them on threats and priorities in the absence of critical fleet-wide tactical updates.  The squadrons would still know the location of enemy fighters, and which might need to be intercepted to protect the carrier or other aircraft operating in the area.  They would certainly not be going into a hostile territory completely unprepared to open fire on arrival.  And this is before accounting for the inclusion of advanced tactical computers (astromech droids) capable of interpreting raw data and feeding it to the shipboard systems far faster than the vocal commands of the flight commander.

 

The squadron command should reflect the idea of coordinated ship-squadron tactical maneuvers designed to simultaneously engage ships and/or squadrons to achieve a single critical objective.  It should not represent the idea of squadrons being completely unprepared and unwilling to fight unless given explicit orders for every action.

Pilots are made aware of what dangers they could possibly face before setting out. After that they are a source of real time information that the flight Commander directs.

A squadron of strike craft are commanded by the Flight Commander (or Wing Commander in Armada) and that squadron leader will delegate down in order to get that job done.

If the mission does not need a squadrons worth, they won't deploy as a squadron, instead they will deploy in what ever mini groups they are assigned to.

When doing CAS OPs (close air support operations) in Afghanistan, the squadrons would send multiple groups consisting of a pilot and wingman while 1 or 2 groups of the same configuration would be shared for CAP OPs (combat air patrol) where one set would be in the air and another on standby.

During training ops, they would train as a squadron against both other Arial foes and ground targets. They would get targets from their commanders back at base and then execute as a squadron to complete their objective. Same way Armada works. Expect we only see them as a squadron. Not individual star fighters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...