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TheRealStarkiller

How squadrons should have been

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So finding the right approch vector is appearently extemely difficult for well trained pilots flying B-wing star fighters. and a huge 1,6 km long ISD is appearantly very difficult to approach and attack despite it being very hard to miss.

 

Come on, B-wing pilots are trained to attack ships, so once they are within range of one, they don't need any more guidance.

 

It would be the same as saying the command staff onboard USS Enterprise, Yorktown and Hornet, at the battle of Midway, guided the Divebombers by Radio all the way to the point of weapons release. And had full control over which plane should bomb which ship.

 

No, the only control they had was to send of their strike wave, in the direction of where the enemy fleet was last spotted.

The bomber pilots would then, when contact was established, by themselves figure out what attack approach vector was the best, the decision of which was based on tactical training and previous combat experience of the squadron or strike leader.

In many cases it was to dive straight in quickly and surprise the enemy before they had time to spot and re-act to them.

 

But in Armada even a combat veteran like Wedge Antilles or Darth Vader don't know how to approach and attack an enemy Capital ship, on their own.

 

Fighter control (AKI squadron command) should be a nice to have feature that can increase the efficiency of your starfighters, not a must to have feature to make them work on the basic level.

IMHO fighters should be able to shoot at the the end of their move without a squadron command, albeit with a penalty to show that they can attack but less effectivly.

Hence my suggeestion that the defender can select any or all attack dice to be re-rolled.

This way we get both of two worlds, the squadron command will still be the most effective way to use your squadrons, but squadrons are not totally impotent/incompetent, in seeking out and engaging enemy ships/squadrons on their own.

 

In WWII torpedo planes and dive bombers had very specific attack vectors and altitudes they were supposed to approach from.  They were also supposed to approach simultaneously to split enemy AA and fighter CAP between multiple targets.  Several of the Midway attacks went very poorly when the pilots were unable to coordinate these attacks.  Had better communication equipment been available I'm positive an officer on the Carrier would be directing things.

 

Attacking a Star Destroyer is not supposed to be easy.  They have anti-fighter lasers shooting at you.  Presumably through previously conducted trial and error and intelligence gathering optimal approaches would be worked out.  But because the approach is non-trivial, risking a craft without orders is not obvious and so depending upon circumstances, waiting for orders is the correct move.

 

In more games than this one, there is a common perception amongst some people that military forces conducting a battle have this magical ability to be in each others heads, know everything that everyone else does, sees all the enemies without fail, and completely agree upon course of action.  Militaries do train a LOT to try and reach a state like this, but most fail quite far from the mark, and that's with elite troops.  Never mind average troops. Stuff we see done with "surgical" precision like the Seal Team raid on Osama Bin Laden is HIGHLY choreographed and practiced, and even then still see mistakes (like the stealth chopper failing due to the compound walls messing with lift).

 

The thing is that the 3x Torpedo squadrons did make attack runs on the Japanese carriers. using the prescriped tactical approach "vector" doctrin, they where trained to do.

That they have lost contact with their own fighter escort, was just poor luck, and no matter what, the command staff officers onboard the american carriers, could have done nothing to assist, as what was happening was beyond their own radar range, so they couldn't have redirected some fighters in to interfere and protect the torpedo bombers.

And as it happened the Dive Bombers from Enterprise and Yorktown managed to locate, approach, and make the right attack vector, all by their own.

There was no flight controllers from the US carrier that assisted them in that.

 

Like in the Battle of Britain, the flight controllers would direct the fighters in, and once visual contact had been established, it was all up to the flight leaders to make the initial tactical moves, and then attack the enemy.

German free ranging fighters, without the assistance from any ground control, knew exactly what to do when they encountered enemy planes, namely attack them. They wouldn't stop up and say, Well lets give the others a change to shot us down first or simply fly away.

 

When Coastal Command had free ranging anti shipping strikes along the Norwegian coast, the pilots had a mission briefing before take-off, but once they have left the ground they where basically on their own.

And when they located German ships in a fjord, the Beaufighter or Mosquito pilots would attack them, with out assistance from ground control.

They wouldn't stop up and say, Well lets give that juicy freighter or destroyer a change to sail away from us.

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They may not be fun to play to you. I almost always play all ship builds myself. Wave I squadrons just aren't working for me.

You are incorrect in your assessment that they aren't balanced. I'm fully willing to correct you. Alternatively, you could read through this thread, and you should see that most players with experience tend to agree that squadrons are balanced.

You aren't trying to fix a major game issue, you are misunderstanding a major game issue.

And maybe you want to cool your jets? You're melting Bender's face.

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I agree that squadrons aren't too efficient right now in terms of the way people think (Approach from the front to get 2 shots without a command dial, not the back).

 

As far as fluff, you've got in each space battle, a plan of tactics, with basically GCI in the first film. In RotJ, we have a situation where they were in a panic (see around "There's too many of them", when the fleet appeared and were not very effective initially, until some commanders (two in 'squadrons') started getting people organized in defense. (Ackbar, Lando and Wedge)

 

As far as wishes being horses: I would like it to be more reflective of other media, heck, it would be nice if they'd just halved WEG's speeds (6-12 for the common starfighters, X-wings at 8, TIE Fighters at 10, Int +1, A's the fastest at 12, with the bombers being 6 (TIE, B) or 7 (Y)) or just used them in inches as the ruler is supposed to be 12 inches. (Not sure what WOTC was doing with their speeds, interestingly, checking, it seems every single comparison to atmospheric speeds I can find is exact, but the rest is a mess, that's somewhat close to halving WEG's speeds.) I suspect that X-Wing played into it (Which I have not played.) Doing that means that there's not as huge a speed advantage over the rebels, and B-Wings aren't 50% slower than Y-Wings.

 

Fighters are good. However, they need to be part of the fleet action. Unless we get things like Rogue Squadron (with the Rogue keyword), which was an elite squadron, most of the fighter squadron weren't that prone to take the initiative. As one fluff example, look at the battle of the Katana fleet. Rogue Squadron goes at the enemy, while the other fighters are controlled by their ship. (They don't go to attack on their own, but controlled more by the ship. Even after the whole saying something stupid they are more under shipboard control.)

 

As it is, I think it's a bit silly, but it's fairly well balanced for the game. My only major complaint is speed on the rebel side. If we wanted them to act as most people think: Shoot and move, we'd likely need them to cost more. Possibly +50% the cost of squadrons, or possibly doubling it to keep it relatively balanced.

Edited by Captain ICT

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Its funny how extreme slow B-wings are, even when there is no enemy or friendly ships around.

 

They still move agonizingly slow, making their slow attack vector moves, despite that there are no enemy ships/squadrons present to make a slow attack vector move against, when they simply are moving in transit from point A to B.

 

B-wings can marginally act as starfighters when given a squadron command.

The rest of the time they are forced to behave like a submarine, having to hope some poor sod accidentally/coincidentally bump into them.

 

Because B-wing pilots are so incompetent, despite being a select group of the best pilots the rebels have, that they can't overtake a silly ISD from a safe distance in their supposedly "faster fighter" and then attack it from an angle, they are supposed to have been taught trough their "expensive" training, that would normally flush out those that can't qualify to fly the B-wing.

 

Of all the games out there, PC, video, etc. this is they only game where the B-wing is overwhelmingly slow, with or without squadron command.

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Its funny how extreme slow B-wings are, even when there is no enemy or friendly ships around.

 

They still move agonizingly slow, making their slow attack vector moves, despite that there are no enemy ships/squadrons present to make a slow attack vector move against, when they simply are moving in transit from point A to B.

 

B-wings can marginally act as starfighters when given a squadron command.

The rest of the time they are forced to behave like a submarine, having to hope some poor sod accidentally/coincidentally bump into them.

 

Because B-wing pilots are so incompetent, despite being a select group of the best pilots the rebels have, that they can't overtake a silly ISD from a safe distance in their supposedly "faster fighter" and then attack it from an angle, they are supposed to have been taught trough their "expensive" training, that would normally flush out those that can't qualify to fly the B-wing.

 

Of all the games out there, PC, video, etc. this is they only game where the B-wing is overwhelmingly slow, with or without squadron command.

 

Lol. Brilliantly put mate.

 

I would like to take 4 squadrons of B-Wings anything and fly them at an enemy vessel without them thinking "I'll just fly past them and carry on as usual"! 

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Squadrons are terribly ineffective at doing damage, unless they utterly change the squadron rules at an efficient cost (ie, Rhymer)

 

Please tell that to the 2 Demolisher's and a Gladiator that was killed last night due to my squadrons. In fact it was an A-Wing that helped push the damage into the critical zone so the activating ship could kill one of the Gladiator's.

I don't buy the 'other things are worse' argument. Yes, there are gimmicky rules in Armada, but that doesn't excuse the uninspired squadron rules. Yes, they can be effective. No, they're not underpowered, despite being very unforgiving.But they're counterintuitive. They don't act like squadrons should. It constantly feels like I'm herding a bunch of idiots around the table. They don't just get more effective with a squadron command, they make a massive leap from utterly moronic and deliberately useless, to lethal cold blooded killers. They could do more damage to the enemy by accident than they currently do without a squadron order.I wouldn't mind if a squadron order made them more effective, if they were more effective to start with.I know nothing is going to change at this point, the rules are locked away. But who ever posts on a forum with the intent of actually changing the rules? We're just spitballing, whingeing and wishlisting. Squadron rules could be better. They don't need a power boost, but they DEFINITELY need a character boost, IMO.

Wait, wait, wait.

Let me get this straight. So, because we were not listening into the radio chatter of the cockpit, during an "action movie" (which does not reflect real life and how it would actually work), squadrons don't behave like they should. . . Hmmmm well ok then. Let's use my experience from my days in the Navy.

I have been one 2 carriers. The USS Ronald Reagan and the USS Carl Vinson, I was assigned with VFA-25 "The Fist of the Fleet". Now, when squadrons were in patrol or doing missions they were in contact with a flight leader depending on their area of operations. In fact they show this in the Movie Top Gun during the initial scenes of the movie. The squadrons take commands from the command center in their area of operations. Those centers tell squadrons what mission updates they have, what mission priorities they have, threats in the area, etc. In fact Independence Day, another film with many fighters in it, they do this as well.

What makes you think that is not occurring in the Star Wars universe? Is it because you see into the points of the pilots life that a "director" would want you to see? Maybe those points don't reflect how things would actually work?

Hmmmmmm interesting that is.

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Its funny how extreme slow B-wings are, even when there is no enemy or friendly ships around.

 

They still move agonizingly slow, making their slow attack vector moves, despite that there are no enemy ships/squadrons present to make a slow attack vector move against, when they simply are moving in transit from point A to B.

 

B-wings can marginally act as starfighters when given a squadron command.

The rest of the time they are forced to behave like a submarine, having to hope some poor sod accidentally/coincidentally bump into them.

 

Because B-wing pilots are so incompetent, despite being a select group of the best pilots the rebels have, that they can't overtake a silly ISD from a safe distance in their supposedly "faster fighter" and then attack it from an angle, they are supposed to have been taught trough their "expensive" training, that would normally flush out those that can't qualify to fly the B-wing.

 

Of all the games out there, PC, video, etc. this is they only game where the B-wing is overwhelmingly slow, with or without squadron command.

Well darn. . . I should take away all those Gladiator kills my B-Wings have gotten. . . I guess they are just too fast for them to have ever gotten those kills. . .

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Its especially B-Wings that suffer from the fact that squadrons with Bomber need to be in distance 1 to a ship to attack it. I still think Bombers should be able to attack ships in close range.

Have you looked at the scale of the game? Do you understand how large distance 1 represents?

For those that don't know, distance 1 is where a group of squadrons engage each other. That means around the size of an X-Wing game. Think on that.

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Its especially B-Wings that suffer from the fact that squadrons with Bomber need to be in distance 1 to a ship to attack it. I still think Bombers should be able to attack ships in close range.

Have you looked at the scale of the game? Do you understand how large distance 1 represents?

For those that don't know, distance 1 is where a group of squadrons engage each other. That means around the size of an X-Wing game. Think on that.

 

 

Yes I do. Do you understand how large medium range represent? ... thinking ... you know ... Rhymer

 

Bombers use torpedos to attack ships. Thats basically what the black dice of ships represent. So why shouldn't the torpedos of Bombers have the same range like the torpedos of ships?

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"They can't get into position unless you build your entire fleet around them.  That's a bad design philosophy"

 

This isn't bad design philosophy, it's bad play on your part. You must unlearn what you have learned.

 

"For those that don't know, distance 1 is where a group of squadrons engage each other. That means around the size of an X-Wing game. Think on that."

 

It's actually even worse than that. These engagements are abstractions (as you know!). Actual engagement distance would be measured in kilometers, not the neck break closeness represented by the 3x3 map!

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"Its especially B-Wings that suffer from the fact that squadrons with Bomber need to be in distance 1 to a ship to attack it"

 

You're overstating a built in disadvantage. All of the ships and fighters have them.

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Its especially B-Wings that suffer from the fact that squadrons with Bomber need to be in distance 1 to a ship to attack it. I still think Bombers should be able to attack ships in close range.

Have you looked at the scale of the game? Do you understand how large distance 1 represents?

For those that don't know, distance 1 is where a group of squadrons engage each other. That means around the size of an X-Wing game. Think on that.

 

Yes I do. Do you understand how large medium range represent? ... thinking ... you know ... Rhymer

 

Bombers use torpedos to attack ships. Thats basically what the black dice of ships represent. So why shouldn't the torpedos of Bombers have the same range like the torpedos of ships?

You mean because Rhymer has the mathematical genius to target a ship and transfer that targeting data?

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"For those that don't know, distance 1 is where a group of squadrons engage each other. That means around the size of an X-Wing game. Think on that."

 

It's actually even worse than that. These engagements are abstractions (as you know!). Actual engagement distance would be measured in kilometers, not the neck break closeness represented by the 3x3 map!

Oh I know. The 3x3 is what 270 times smaller than it would be in real life it not a bit more.

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"Bombers use torpedos to attack ships. Thats basically what the black dice of ships represent. So why shouldn't the torpedos of Bombers have the same range like the torpedos of ships"

 

You're assuming that fighter ordnance is in the same class as ship board ordnance.

Edited by Red Winter

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Its especially B-Wings that suffer from the fact that squadrons with Bomber need to be in distance 1 to a ship to attack it. I still think Bombers should be able to attack ships in close range.

Have you looked at the scale of the game? Do you understand how large distance 1 represents?

For those that don't know, distance 1 is where a group of squadrons engage each other. That means around the size of an X-Wing game. Think on that.

 

Yes I do. Do you understand how large medium range represent? ... thinking ... you know ... Rhymer

 

Bombers use torpedos to attack ships. Thats basically what the black dice of ships represent. So why shouldn't the torpedos of Bombers have the same range like the torpedos of ships?

You mean because Rhymer has the mathematical genius to target a ship and transfer that targeting data?

 

 

And he is the only man on the universe with this ability ... but seems to appear everywhere.

And transferred to X-Wing all ships next to rhymer would be able to attack every ship on any table in your gaming store.

 

How about if you would comment on the Bombers-should-be-able-to-attack-at-close-range-because-they-use-torpedos argument?

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Its funny how extreme slow B-wings are, even when there is no enemy or friendly ships around.

 

They still move agonizingly slow, making their slow attack vector moves, despite that there are no enemy ships/squadrons present to make a slow attack vector move against, when they simply are moving in transit from point A to B.

 

B-wings can marginally act as starfighters when given a squadron command.

The rest of the time they are forced to behave like a submarine, having to hope some poor sod accidentally/coincidentally bump into them.

 

Because B-wing pilots are so incompetent, despite being a select group of the best pilots the rebels have, that they can't overtake a silly ISD from a safe distance in their supposedly "faster fighter" and then attack it from an angle, they are supposed to have been taught trough their "expensive" training, that would normally flush out those that can't qualify to fly the B-wing.

 

Of all the games out there, PC, video, etc. this is they only game where the B-wing is overwhelmingly slow, with or without squadron command.

Well darn. . . I should take away all those Gladiator kills my B-Wings have gotten. . . I guess they are just too fast for them to have ever gotten those kills. . .

 

Did the GSD come to them, or could they all by themselves seek out a specific GSD and polish it of from any direction?

And how many times did you manage to kill of a GSD, when moving the B-wings up from behind, without a squadron command?

 

Just be honest most of your kills where made when the B-wings was placed, as a mine field, somewhere in front of their potential target.

But what are the B-wings worth once they are trailing behind an enemy ship, without an flight controller yelling at him to get his sodding act together and attack the darn large, hard to miss thing, that is gop-smack in front of him?

 

The should call it the B-mine, because calling it a B-wing, would be an insult to things that can actually wing their way towards an enemy and attack them.

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How about if you would comment on the Bombers-should-be-able-to-attack-at-close-range-because-they-use-torpedos argument?

You've repeated that argument ad nauseam. It's no me l more meritorious now than it was the first time you mentioned it. Squadrons are fine as they were, they don't need to be made significantly stronger.

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"Bombers use torpedos to attack ships. Thats basically what the black dice of ships represent. So why shouldn't the torpedos of Bombers have the same range like the torpedos of ships"

 

You're assuming that fighter ordnance is in the same class as ship board ordnance.

Correct! A squadrons Torpedo is actually smaller than that of a ships Torpedo.

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Its funny how extreme slow B-wings are, even when there is no enemy or friendly ships around.

 

They still move agonizingly slow, making their slow attack vector moves, despite that there are no enemy ships/squadrons present to make a slow attack vector move against, when they simply are moving in transit from point A to B.

 

B-wings can marginally act as starfighters when given a squadron command.

The rest of the time they are forced to behave like a submarine, having to hope some poor sod accidentally/coincidentally bump into them.

 

Because B-wing pilots are so incompetent, despite being a select group of the best pilots the rebels have, that they can't overtake a silly ISD from a safe distance in their supposedly "faster fighter" and then attack it from an angle, they are supposed to have been taught trough their "expensive" training, that would normally flush out those that can't qualify to fly the B-wing.

 

Of all the games out there, PC, video, etc. this is they only game where the B-wing is overwhelmingly slow, with or without squadron command.

Well darn. . . I should take away all those Gladiator kills my B-Wings have gotten. . . I guess they are just too fast for them to have ever gotten those kills. . .

Did the GSD come to them, or could they all by themselves seek out a specific GSD and polish it of from any direction?

And how many times did you manage to kill of a GSD, when moving the B-wings up from behind, without a squadron command?

 

Just be honest most of your kills where made when the B-wings was placed, as a mine field, somewhere in front of their potential target.

But what are the B-wings worth once they are trailing behind an enemy ship, without an flight controller yelling at him to get his sodding act together and attack the darn large, hard to miss thing, that is gop-smack in front of him?

 

The should call it the B-mine, because calling it a B-wing, would be an insult to things that can actually wing their way towards an enemy and attack them.

Last night they rushed in and got kills on Gladiator's that decided it was worth getting close enough to attack. Well planned squadron commands are always worth it.

People forget that even though they are speed 2,they have a threat range of over distance 4 or so.

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And he is the only man on the universe with this ability ... but seems to appear everywhere.

Major Rhymer is not actually a unique individual. Each Imperial TIE Bomber attack group promotes their best rapper to the position of Major Rhymer, who drops sick rhymes on Rebel ships. This rapper-pilot savant is then sent through intense mathematical training and is given a TIE Bomber with an expanded sensor array. He then leads TIE Bombers into battle while freestyle rapping out the coordinates to attack enemy capital ships.

 

So he's basically the Dread Pirate Roberts of the Star Wars Armada universe.

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