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TheRealStarkiller

How squadrons should have been

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Yeees ... so wrong to play squadrons as squadrons.

I need to play squadrons as minefields.

I was so wrong. I see so clear now.

How could I ever thought to use squadrons as squadrons.

They are minefields! So clear now.

 

Here's the thing...

 

When fighters engage other fighters they dogfight and are "self sufficient"...the problem is; those dudes don't know what Admiral Screed is planning so need good communication and direction in order to connect the fighters with the overall battleplan. This makes having them require commands to be in the right place at the right time make sense.

 

Not to mention it gives the squadron command importance: it's better than CF: so ya.

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Yeees ... so wrong to play squadrons as squadrons.

I need to play squadrons as minefields.

I was so wrong. I see so clear now.

How could I ever thought to use squadrons as squadrons.

They are minefields! So clear now.

 

Here's the thing...

 

When fighters engage other fighters they dogfight and are "self sufficient"...the problem is; those dudes don't know what Admiral Screed is planning so need good communication and direction in order to connect the fighters with the overall battleplan. This makes having them require commands to be in the right place at the right time make sense.

 

Not to mention it gives the squadron command importance: it's better than CF: so ya.

 

 

1 Concentrated Firepower = 1 dice.  1 Squadron Command = 4-5 Dice....... its what sold me on squadrons and other lists may be better or easier to pilot but squadrons can be devastating and are an integral part to my battle plans.

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Indeed. Especially when you consider the attacks are:

 

* Almost immune to defense tokens

* Fire before your ship; thus can strip shields

* Can be placed anywhere, unlike a ship, thus make things like Superior Positions and attacking shieldless hull zones easy as pie.

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Attack craft are too slow. There is no reason an Imperial SD needs to be 3x the speed of B wings. Thematically it makes NO sense. Mechanics wise it allows people to run 3 assault frigs and just ignore fighters altogether due tot he speed.

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Attack craft are too slow. There is no reason an Imperial SD needs to be 3x the speed of B wings. Thematically it makes NO sense. Mechanics wise it allows people to run 3 assault frigs and just ignore fighters altogether due tot he speed.

Ignoring a Rymer ball supported by squadron commands will lead to a dead Assault Frigate in 1-3 turns (depending on if the bombers do all the work themselves or not).

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Attack craft are too slow. There is no reason an Imperial SD needs to be 3x the speed of B wings. Thematically it makes NO sense. Mechanics wise it allows people to run 3 assault frigs and just ignore fighters altogether due tot he speed.

Ignoring a Rymer ball supported by squadron commands will lead to a dead Assault Frigate in 1-3 turns (depending on if the bombers do all the work themselves or not).

 

 

SO MUCH WIN!!!!!!!! seriously. 

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1 Concentrated Firepower = 1 dice.  1 Squadron Command = 4-5 Dice....... its what sold me on squadrons and other lists may be better or easier to pilot but squadrons can be devastating and are an integral part to my battle plans.

Right, but consider that instead of your squadrons you could have another ship.

A ship that doesn't need an order to move and fire.

That can, in fact, issue an order to itself.

And one that adds to your activation count, has defense tokens, can move and fire, etc.

Squadrons have their own benefits. I ran a squadron heavy list just this afternoon and did quite well with it. But when you're comparing orders it's important to remember that if you had another ship instead of the squadrons, that ship can always fire and then move, from more than one arc, and can give itself an order which in turn means your other ships can more reliably use their own orders to improve their own firepower, repair damage, etc. It's not as simple as a Squadron order generating more attack dice than a Concentrate Firepower order.

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Partly I see it as this: yes, the squadrons command is extremely efficient in the sense that it has the potential to cause perhaps 4 additional damage to a target.

 

Downside: That 4 damage cost a command, great timing, and probably 60 points. And is unlikely to repeat turn after turn. Are 4 X-Wings really causing comparable damage to a CR90 or Raider? Who can do it turn after turn without really worrying too much about boardstate?

 

That's the issue. You're already paying quite a few points for guys that don't give you an activation, and may not really have more firepower than their weight in light warships. The optimal case is better, but the 'average expected' and sub-optimal cases are far worse.

Edited by Killionaire

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Squadrons aren't broken. Not by a long shot.

 

I do, however, agree with the OP that squadrons COULD have been implemented in a different manner. Currently they work, but are not very intuitive, and require quite a bit of practice to make work.

 

Me, I don't like squadrons much, but I see they have some potential. So I have a complement. Not very big, but large enough to deter or threaten if unopposed. Always.

 

That said: squadrons work the way they do. It's not going to change.

Edited by Green Knight

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I run an all ship list.

I do pretty well most of the time. Often when playing my cousin I find that his rebel ship-heavy build is a crusher. He won our local Sullust, and its definitely not the first time he's been at, or near the top table at the end.

Not every squadron heavy build is always so dangerous - that depends very much on the player, and the list they are using.

Seems to me that they got squadrons just about right. They aren't my style for Wave 1 (we'll see what Wave 2 brings) but they aren't bad, and neither are squadron light, or squadronless builds.

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I've never understood the negativity about squadrons. I really like how squadrons fit into the game (fighters screens, engagements, bombers and squadron commands) - in fact, the squadron rules are one of the reasons WHY I like this game so much (and why I usually play squadron heavy lists).

Edited by Ghost Dancer

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Just a point on theme: 

 

Han had to go into the asteroids because an imperial star destroyer can catch the falcon.* You never see imperial ships outrunning any fighters in the movies because the only direction they are going is towards the rebels. Ain't nobody evacuatin' in their moment of triumph. 

 

Woo. 

 

 

 

*At sublight speeds, I mean obviously han would win a race to kessel and back. 

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And even still, is noteworthy, and impressive that the Falcon can outrun Imperial cruisers in Hyperspace.

It turns out that the Empire invests well in its military technology, curious. ;)

Edited by DerErlkoenig

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I appreciate what you're trying to say, but "Oh, you're just using them wrong!" isn't terribly helpful to people struggling to see the relevance of Squadrons in the game.

If you know something they don't, then please share the knowledge.

 

Working on it for an article on my blog and i will also post it here.  I need to work on some diagrams first .  its going to be a few weeks but I will be writing a squadrons article and try to take pictures during my games to help teach players how to apply them.

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And even still, is noteworthy, and impressive that the Falcon can outrun Imperial cruisers in Hyperspace.

It turns out that the Empire invests well in its military technology, curious. ;)

 

Can it? I recall the Empire beating them to Bespin.

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not to mention ignoring B-wings is impossible because they're going to overlap that ISD's incredibly obese ass

 

 

AFs are another matter; Silly Bombers can catch them without much issue

 

Hey do they? I know once you get a couple B's in front of VSD they stay there in perpetuity, but is that also true of a speed three ISD? I honestly don't know, haven't had the chance to play with a large base ship. Is that base so large it keeps overlapping even at speed three?

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In my region lists with squadrons tend to lose - unless its the Rhymer Ball - which can work - but again only because the Rhymer effect feels more like a cheat that overrules the general squadron game mechanics... which is not good game design.... but either way...

Then the people in your region don't know how to use squadrons very well.

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1 Concentrated Firepower = 1 dice.  1 Squadron Command = 4-5 Dice....... its what sold me on squadrons and other lists may be better or easier to pilot but squadrons can be devastating and are an integral part to my battle plans.

Right, but consider that instead of your squadrons you could have another ship.A ship that doesn't need an order to move and fire.That can, in fact, issue an order to itself.And one that adds to your activation count, has defense tokens, can move and fire, etc.Squadrons have their own benefits. I ran a squadron heavy list just this afternoon and did quite well with it. But when you're comparing orders it's important to remember that if you had another ship instead of the squadrons, that ship can always fire and then move, from more than one arc, and can give itself an order which in turn means your other ships can more reliably use their own orders to improve their own firepower, repair damage, etc. It's not as simple as a Squadron order generating more attack dice than a Concentrate Firepower order.

Ok, let's play. 3 B-Wings is 42 points. That shoots 6 more dice at a shipship, each can deal a critical effect, and case tokens to be used in the 3 seperate attacks.

A CR90 A is 44 points only gets 6 dice max with a command and at best can use 2 critical effects and may force the tokens to be used only in 2 instances.

Oh, and the CR90 can be taken out in a single shot.

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And even still, is noteworthy, and impressive that the Falcon can outrun Imperial cruisers in Hyperspace.

It turns out that the Empire invests well in its military technology, curious. ;)

 

Can it? I recall the Empire beating them to Bespin.

 

The Falcon's hyperdrive was broken then.

 

 

we have a bingo.....  fett followed and called ahead

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