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TheRealStarkiller

How squadrons should have been

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I'm sure this topics have been discussed already.

I just want to share what my local players think about squadrons:

 

1. Every squadron which havn't been activated until then should be able to move and attack in the squadron phase.

2. Squadrons with Bomber should be able to attack ships at close range (and not range 1).

3. Rhymer's effect should only affect Bombers (there is even an opinion that Rhymer is the worst and most broken element of the game, because if bombers (squadrons) work its only because of his effect and not because of the general mechanics for squadrons)

4. Squadrons that have been activated by ship command should get a reroll of 1 die while attacking (though we have no consense about this point, the idea was to make squadrons more effective while activated by a ship)

 

Those rules are untested.

Its just an impression about how we think of squadrons in general and why they are underwhelming and therefore underused.

Point 1 in the upper list is the most importent one.

 

What do you think?

Edited by TheRealStarkiller

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If 1. would apply as you have stated, what's the point of a Squadron Command?  if 4. is your Solution, then what's the point of Swarm?  An additional reroll doesn't seem to be that great, since you're really only shooting at Squadrons anyway.

 

I do firmly believe that these ideas and suggestions are borne out of a limited area where Squadrons just aren't used effectively...  Its a Knee-Jerk reaction to something which, again, stipulated again, we have yet to see the full means of with Wave 2.

 

 I mean, if I proposed any of those to my group, I would be Lynched.  Legit Lynched.

 

FFG is telling us that, Squadrons are supposed to be Cheap.  Super-Cheap.  And only effective when you use the Ship Supports.  That is why the Rogue squardons, which do your Point 1. above, are significantly more expensive in points.

 

Use 'em or Don't use 'em as you see fit...  But I know I'm not alone when I say There is far too many points Unknown to rescript Squadrons en masse at this point in time.

 

I honestly wish I could sit down and show your local group how my local group plays, if this is what it has come to in your area...

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I think squadrons are fine.  Rhymer i can see as being busted as I have abused his abilities.  Rhymer i feel is one of the few ways to augment Gallant Haven Aces High build.  While it doesn't seem as possible as it once was its definately a powerful list with Dark Horse potentional.  It is one of those lists that if you aren't experienced against it you are in bad spot.

 

Squadrons may be the hardest aspect of armada to use correcty and they have a high risk high reward potential.  Your proposed changes would take squadrons from a maybe desicion to every list starting with max points of squadrons.

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If 1. would apply as you have stated, what's the point of a Squadron Command?  if 4. is your Solution, then what's the point of Swarm?  An additional reroll doesn't seem to be that great, since you're really only shooting at Squadrons anyway.

 

I do firmly believe that these ideas and suggestions are borne out of a limited area where Squadrons just aren't used effectively...  Its a Knee-Jerk reaction to something which, again, stipulated again, we have yet to see the full means of with Wave 2.

 

 I mean, if I proposed any of those to my group, I would be Lynched.  Legit Lynched.

 

FFG is telling us that, Squadrons are supposed to be Cheap.  Super-Cheap.  And only effective when you use the Ship Supports.  That is why the Rogue squardons, which do your Point 1. above, are significantly more expensive in points.

 

Use 'em or Don't use 'em as you see fit...  But I know I'm not alone when I say There is far too many points Unknown to rescript Squadrons en masse at this point in time.

 

I honestly wish I could sit down and show your local group how my local group plays, if this is what it has come to in your area...

 

The Squadron Command is to let squadrons attack before the squadron phase. And an additional reroll is very strong. Especially if it let you reroll also the black battery die of bombers.

Your group is your problem. In my region lists with squadrons tend to lose - unless its the Rhymer Ball - which can work - but again only because the Rhymer effect feels more like a cheat that overrules the general squadron game mechanics... which is not good game design.... but either way...

Yes, yes. In wave 2 there will be squadrons that work like all squadrons should work. Yes just wait for wave 2 and replace your squadrons with Scoundrel and Bounty Hunters ...

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Your proposed changes would take squadrons from a maybe desicion to every list starting with max points of squadrons.

 

Would this be so bad?

Fighters flying screaming between big ships while turbolaser fire is all over ... this is Star Wars, man!

No Star Destroyer would ever left harbour without a full supplement of fighter and bomber squadrons.

I would gladly welcome this.

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I don't feel an intense need to grab squadrons due to their basic mechanics. Rhymer gets around a bunch, but it's just that they're so inflexible and unlikely to actually get attacks off without a lot of wrangling.

 

If they were allowed to move 1 distance and still attack, it'd be a game-changer and they'd be fantastic. As it is, the inability of squadrons to consistently attack Speed 2 and Speed 3 (esp) targets makes them a lot worse.

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If Rhymer is such a problem why not grab a squadron or 2 to deal with him?  My opponents who nuetralize him often beat me.  However most of them target howlrunner first and thats their main mistake.

 

The problem with Rhymer is not how to deal with him. Its more why such a broken element even exist.

Without Rhymer, and with a general move and attack rule, squadrons would be far more interesting and fun to use.

But now you literally have to have Rhymer and you have to form a ball around him and place this ball into the path of a ship. Thats it. Thats more or less all the fun you can get out of it.

I'd wish the Rebels could get their B-Wings work, this would be somewhat different.

Right now all the Rebels do is to block the Rhymer ball with a pair of A-Wings. Thats it. Very singular.

I've never seen a X-Wing again on the board since wave 1 came out.

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I wouldn't mind having Rogue as a default, but honestly squadrons are fine

 

 

the only "problem" is that they take a lot of getting used to since they are a completely unique element to Armada. Compared with X-wing miniatures at least, where ships share firing arcs (sorta) and move around as their own self-defined units, squadrons are these weird little dependent yuppy models that don't interact with ships the way that other ships do

 

quite simply, they take getting used to and a bit of thought. That can be frustrating for newer players. It does not, however, make squadrons any less good (especially B-wings; nothing puts out more damage in Wave 1 than Yavaris Bs)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I hope someone makes this admiral:

 

Bomber crit: cancel attack dice to deal one face up damage card to the target ship.

 

I think that would make fighters annoying enough to have to worry about them* to the point where ceding squadron superiority wholesale is always a bad choice*

 

*edit

Edited by DUR

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Your proposed changes would take squadrons from a maybe desicion to every list starting with max points of squadrons.

 

Would this be so bad?

Fighters flying screaming between big ships while turbolaser fire is all over ... this is Star Wars, man!

No Star Destroyer would ever left harbour without a full supplement of fighter and bomber squadrons.

I would gladly welcome this.

 

 

A Star Destroyer will never leave "port" without a hangar full of TIEs they are enforcers of the emperers policies and similar to how real life aircraft carriers operate.  They are expected to be out of port and self sufficient for long periods of time.  The Rebels however do not have the same amount of resources. It is very much so assumed that a ship may be caught off guard with out fighter escort (see Episode 4, Tantive IV vs Devastator)

 

I don't feel an intense need to grab squadrons due to their basic mechanics. Rhymer gets around a bunch, but it's just that they're so inflexible and unlikely to actually get attacks off without a lot of wrangling.

 

If they were allowed to move 1 distance and still attack, it'd be a game-changer and they'd be fantastic. As it is, the inability of squadrons to consistently attack Speed 2 and Speed 3 (esp) targets makes them a lot worse.

 

While I agree with the lack of consistancy produced by squadrons Its easy to predict where your opponent wants to be and lay the squadron minefield out in front of him. 

 

 

If Rhymer is such a problem why not grab a squadron or 2 to deal with him?  My opponents who nuetralize him often beat me.  However most of them target howlrunner first and thats their main mistake.

 

The problem with Rhymer is not how to deal with him. Its more why such a broken element even exist.

Without Rhymer, and with a general move and attack rule, squadrons would be far more interesting and fun to use.

But now you literally have to have Rhymer and you have to form a ball around him and place this ball into the path of a ship. Thats it. Thats more or less all the fun you can get out of it.

I'd wish the Rebels could get their B-Wings work, this would be somewhat different.

Right now all the Rebels do is to block the Rhymer ball with a pair of A-Wings. Thats it. Very singular.

I've never seen a X-Wing again on the board since wave 1 came out.

 

 

For the most part Rhymers ability lets me make up for sloppy play.  Honestly with a squadron command its pretty easy to make a bombing run.  Rhymer is handy when your opponent is satelitting his ships with squadrons to protect them from ship bombardments.  B-Wings work great as squadron mines your ships "poops" out, for lack of a better term, behind them.  As demolisher and vettes position for rear arc attacks the b-wing is a nice little suprise for them.

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Allow me to say this having won with last tournament with a fighter heavy fleet.

 

You have to support fighters with commands. You need at least one ship to run as a carrier to make fighters anything more than a screen to stop other fighters. The way you approach ships is counter intuitive. Go for the front arc of where they will be after they move the next time. Make the ship run over you especially if speed 2. (A non yawing speed 2 large ship, cannot help but run you over, place the fighters back in front, and repeat. If yawing, they might be able to, but you've still got a second shot into the back.) That's without having to use commands.

 

Plan to spend *at least* a command dial every 2 turns to support fighters if you go heavy.

 

Design a carrier, Yavaris is the best (Double fire) with Antilles that's 3 double fires, up to 12 dice from B-wings if properly positioned at medium range, 6 dice from B-Wings at up to range medium+2 (+1 for fighter range), but a VSD with flight controllers, Corruptor, Admiral Chiraneau and boosted comms/expanded hangars is still a VSD but with reach. That's up to 4 black bomber dice at a ship that's medium + 5 range away (well 6 if you count the range on fighters) (or 3@long+5+1) (Granted, you can't do that a second time if you use that long range, but that ship that thinks it's escaping with 1 hull... yeah. BEWM.

 

Also means getting flanked isn't as bad, especially for the VSD above. Most ships that can get around to flank it (Basically corvettes), aren't going to like 4 separate black dice, plus whatever your shipboard guns can do. With the new squadrons, that 4 black dice increase.

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You have to support fighters with commands.

 

This 100%  I use squadron commands on both my ships even demolisher until either my enemy squadrons or eliminated or I am down squadrons and no longer need Demolisher to run the ones my VSD can not.  i have a list with 8 squadrons and 2 ISDs at 400pts I am really excited to try out as double carriers.

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I think FFG missed something because they though they needed to hold back the number of fighters a player fielded in a force, hence the you can only have 1/3 of your force in fighters. But as it turns out fighters are not worth the points and they could use a rule to force players to even use all the fighter command spaces in their forces.

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I think FFG missed something because they though they needed to hold back the number of fighters a player fielded in a force, hence the you can only have 1/3 of your force in fighters. But as it turns out fighters are not worth the points and they could use a rule to force players to even use all the fighter command spaces in their forces.

 

I take a VSD park it in my corner and take 220pts of Squadrons or 320pts of squadrons.  You now have to come through something like 32 blue dice to get to my one ship...... Squadron congalines.  At that point we are playing EPIC: X-Wing and not star wars armada. 

Edited by BergerFett

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Yeees ... so wrong to play squadrons as squadrons.

I need to play squadrons as minefields.

I was so wrong. I see so clear now.

How could I ever thought to use squadrons as squadrons.

They are minefields! So clear now.

 

its the most effeviant way to play them in the bomber role, unless someone is speed 1.  Squadrons as squadrons are fine when your opponent has squadrons but when they dont have them you need to adapt.  Would the Imperial Admirals really not launch TIEs in a heated battle against an enemy capital ship if the enemy doesn't have any fighters?  No they would scramble squadrons take advantage of air superiority. 

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Yeees ... so wrong to play squadrons as squadrons.

I need to play squadrons as minefields.

I was so wrong. I see so clear now.

How could I ever thought to use squadrons as squadrons.

They are minefields! So clear now.

This is half true

It doesn't work for antusquadron squadrons (you need to engage enemies)

"Minefields" are what let bombers wreck enemy ships without the aid of commands

Rhymer is the most efficient because he and his buddies threaten such a huge area. With the ball in place, firing at enemy ships in the area, you can stop supporting them with your ship

Bwings are the slowest but deadliest mine fields. Park them in front of a ship and let it contionusly overlap them till death :P

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Yeah, not being rude, but you haven't played squadrons correctly or haven't seen someone play them correctly.

 

There is an ABSOLUTE reason they are limited to a third of the points.  Even one dedicated carrier that can send out 3-5 fighter/bombers PLUS fire both its arc is devastating.   A rebel assault frig with raymus can command five bwings PLUS fire out 6 red and a blue or so on its activation PLUS 5 black and 5 blue.  That will tear the hell out of any ship...guaranteed.

 

People just want to use all the other commands.. navigate...concnertarte fire...engineering..   I have a double carrier fleet with 8 fighter/bombers that never issue any other command BUT squadron commands.

 

Try building and playing a fleet AS a carrier fleet...you will be amazed at the damage they can do...

 

 

 

 

as an aside, statistically, the squadrons are more efficient at doing damage. Brace effectively never works (except against bwings) and the occasional black crit/damage. Plus, if they waste a brace or redirect on a squadron, then they don't have it for the massive ship barrage coming next.   If you have five squadrons attack a ship, one of two things is happeneing.... they are either dropping that shield, or spending ALL of their defense tokens AND taking lots on that shield.  The math of squadrons hitting multiple little hits doesn't like the defense the tokens.  It eats them up fast and then theres nothing for the big ship hit.

 

I cant say anything but great things for squadrons, except that I get to have 33 more points in 400 pt battles  :)

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Yeah, not being rude, but you haven't played squadrons correctly or haven't seen someone play them correctly.

 

There is an ABSOLUTE reason they are limited to a third of the points.  Even one dedicated carrier that can send out 3-5 fighter/bombers PLUS fire both its arc is devastating.   A rebel assault frig with raymus can command five bwings PLUS fire out 6 red and a blue or so on its activation PLUS 5 black and 5 blue.  That will tear the hell out of any ship...guaranteed.

 

People just want to use all the other commands.. navigate...concnertarte fire...engineering..   I have a double carrier fleet with 8 fighter/bombers that never issue any other command BUT squadron commands.

 

Try building and playing a fleet AS a carrier fleet...you will be amazed at the damage they can do...

 

 

 

 

as an aside, statistically, the squadrons are more efficient at doing damage. Brace effectively never works (except against bwings) and the occasional black crit/damage. Plus, if they waste a brace or redirect on a squadron, then they don't have it for the massive ship barrage coming next.   If you have five squadrons attack a ship, one of two things is happeneing.... they are either dropping that shield, or spending ALL of their defense tokens AND taking lots on that shield.  The math of squadrons hitting multiple little hits doesn't like the defense the tokens.  It eats them up fast and then theres nothing for the big ship hit.

 

I cant say anything but great things for squadrons, except that I get to have 33 more points in 400 pt battles  :)

 

100% this.  There is strength in getting 4-5 shots off on a flank rolling 1 die at a time and makeing your opponent decide if redirecting that 1 damage is really worth it.  If they don't maybe they have 0 shields in the side.  You have now dictated where they are allowed to use their redirect when you fire your ships salvo into them.  Or as I like to do, you get 2 fighters on each side of a neb drop its shields to 0 (hopefully) and then ACM demolier pounds the front going, you have no redirect, you can brace and when screed you take 2 damage no matter what.  They set up some lethal 1-2 punches.  Is it as easy to apply as "more ships", absolutely not.  When used properly they force your opponent to make a lot of decisions, and the more times they have to make a decision the higher the chance they make the wrong one.

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