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Enemy Beyond Expansion

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Can you tell me the random roll chance for the new homeworlds? Also how does coming from a Daemon world even work?

I'll have to look later, but they do exist. And daemon world origins are like any other but they grant psynisciene to non psukers iirc

Thank you a Lot! That Sounds good indeed.

Are there New specific worlds described (incl. CharGen details)?

Is Astropath the only Elite Package?

Yes to both. The new homeworld pages have lore worlds and the thrid chapter includes alternate starting options for old world types as in Within/Without.

I adnit I like how all three books follow the same, consistent format

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Emperor (or Dark God of your choosing) bless you viruscarrrier!

 

Crusader is interesting and underused archeotype of 40k (alon? with penitent witch, but that got a talent in Enemies Within), could you give us a rundown of his rules? I hope he is more than anti-Daemon Warrior or Fanatic. Bit suprised that Exorcised is backround and not an Elite Advance, wasnt it the latter in DH1?

 

Any interesting bits of fluff?  

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Worlds are Daemon World, Penal Colony and Quarantined World.  Neat worlds, all in all.

 

The Crusader is actually good against anything with Fear; their ability lets them spend Fate Points to succeed on Fear tests, and they add a creature's Fear rating to all melee damage and penetration they do to it.  So fighting a Daemon with Fear (3) nets you 3 extra damage and penetration on each hit.  

 

That said, I do have a problem with the Exorcised background versus the results of being Exorcised in-game.

 

Background gives you...
Some skill to include Forbidden Lore Daemonology,
Hatred (Daemons),

Two Weapon Trainings,

A Malignancy,

And the ability to count your Insanity bonus as two higher for the purpose of ignoring Fear.

No Insanity, no Corruption, Immunity to one Daemon.

 

Meanwhile, actually being possessed and exorcised in game nets you...

2d10+10 Corruption (from initial possession)
3d10 Insanity (from being exorcised)
Resistance (Psychic Powers, Fear)
Iron Faith
Forbidden Lores (Warp and Daemonology) +10
Psyniscience +10
-1d10 permanent to Toughness
-1d10 permanent to Fellowship
All later Corruption/Insanity gains are halved.  
Can't be possessed by that Daemon again.
 
Anyone else notice the differences?  That's ludicrous.  These don't 'differ somewhat' like the book tries to claim.  You can make 'Exorcised' characters with literally 0 Corruption and 0 Insanity with how they messed things up.  I'm trying to think of a good price to make the effects of Exorcised an Elite Advance, right now.  As-is, that Background will be banned from my game.  
 
Overall, I enjoy the book immensely; Daemonology is awesome, new gear is awesome (with full-size power-armor!), rules to make your Daemonic weapons and Daemon Princes and other infernal things are great.  I even like Possession and the attendant rules.  That one discrepancy on Exorcism annoys me to no end.  
Edited by MijRai

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Anyone else notice the differences?  That's ludicrous.  These don't 'differ somewhat' like the book tries to claim.  You can make 'Exorcised' characters with literally 0 Corruption and 0 Insanity with how they messed things up.  I'm trying to think of a good price to make the effects of Exorcised an Elite Advance, right now.  As-is, that Background will be banned from my game.  

 

The difference is context.

 

One is background to create your character, which isn't supposed to give a destroyed character at first, while the other one is a terrible expercience your character goes through.

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No, it isn't.  

 

How can one be possessed by a Daemon yet suffer no points of Corruption or Insanity?  None, zip, zilch.  That goes against everything the game tries to drum into folks (exposure to the Warp causes Corruption and/or Insanity).  How is one formerly possessed, but doesn't actually get the effects of being exorcised?  It makes less sense than Aces not getting the Aptitude needed to operate vehicles.  

 

Making Exorcised a Background is a mistake, and a pretty bad one at that.  How does it even fill a Background's time-frame?  Other Backgrounds take up extended periods of time, they're how you experienced life before joining the Inquisition.  You were an Outcast, or you were inducted into the Tech-Priesthood.  Was an Exorcised person just prepped as a vessel and possessed the entire time others would have been in the Imperial Guard or Adeptus Administratum?  Mutants make more sense, as their kind basically fills the niche below Outcasts.  No explanation of how they were exposed to being Possessed?  You can't even make a Sanctioned Psyker who'd been possessed at some point, since the Adeptus Astra Telepathica is a Background too.  You can still make an Unsanctioned Wyrd who got possessed, though.  Even if the chances of one of them surviving is slimmer than a Sanctioned being exorcised instead of purged. 

 

The Exorcised should be an Elite Advance, like in First Edition; make the price less than 1,000 experience, and any walk of life could have been Possessed and had an exorcism performed at some point before the game starts.  It shouldn't be 'cheap' and it should have plenty of repercussions, unlike the Background.

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Anyone else notice the differences?  That's ludicrous.  These don't 'differ somewhat' like the book tries to claim.  You can make 'Exorcised' characters with literally 0 Corruption and 0 Insanity with how they messed things up.  I'm trying to think of a good price to make the effects of Exorcised an Elite Advance, right now.  As-is, that Background will be banned from my game.  

 

The difference is context.

 

One is background to create your character, which isn't supposed to give a destroyed character at first, while the other one is a terrible expercience your character goes through.

 

Whether it happened pre-game or in-game is irrelevant IMO. It's the same experience! Further, For your character to have been through this pre-gen suggests nothing short of a Miracle! (Sort of like a first lvl character having survived a Dragon attack in their back story at 1st lvl!). I agree. Should have been an Elite advance! 

 

Resolving the issue seems fairly simple though:

 

Excorsized: (Elite advance)

 

Prerequisite: Must have been posessed and then Excorsized from Demon

 

Benefits: Add all benefits and penalties from both new background and in-game version.

 

Cost: 300xp (Represents the Acolyte having taken time to learn and understand what happened to them and how to turn it to a positive.

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No, it isn't.  

 

How can one be possessed by a Daemon yet suffer no points of Corruption or Insanity?  None, zip, zilch.  That goes against everything the game tries to drum into folks (exposure to the Warp causes Corruption and/or Insanity).  How is one formerly possessed, but doesn't actually get the effects of being exorcised?  It makes less sense than Aces not getting the Aptitude needed to operate vehicles. 

 

Even if you don't agree, yes it is. It is a question of context.

 

One is something your character gain through the game, the other is a background. 

 

After that, free to you to not like it as a background, but that's the reason and hence the differences.

 

 

 

Whether it happened pre-game or in-game is irrelevant IMO. It's the same experience! Further, For your character to have been through this pre-gen suggests nothing short of a Miracle! (Sort of like a first lvl character having survived a Dragon attack in their back story at 1st lvl!). I agree. Should have been an Elite advance! 

 

 

That or said character was very good and strong, but lost a lot during his experience, representing a character that is not so powerful anymore. 

 

The same way that the absence of insanity and corruption could be represented by a lot of purges, purifications, rites and such for the character before being allowed in a team of acolyte.

 

Why an Inquisitor would do that? It's an other question. 

 

 

 

In the end, I do agree, it would have been better as an elite advance. But the rules, even if not like I want them, aren't contrary to the system.

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How I'd choose to differentiate the two is that the Background happened so far in the past, and the circumstances were such that the character was able to work through the insanity and corruption since the Imperium isn't necessarily the type of folks who exorcise someone and then throw back to the streets.  Most likely what followed would've been some for of hypno-indoctrination, or intense prayer/flagellation/whatever else to clear that.  The body would regain whatever strength it had lost and whatever knowledge was gained would most likely have been "encouraged" to have been forgotten, or simply lost over time.

 

The event of possession/exorcism, everything is still very much raw.  Most likely the player character doesn't have access to all the same resources, or their Inquisitor decides that this may be a good thing and decide to NOT to a proper post-exorcism "rehabilitation."

 

I compare it to a bad breakup.  One week, six months or even a year afterwards you could still be affected badly by the experience.  Five years later and it may just be "some chick I dated who broke my heart.  I've moved on"

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It still isn't a question of context.  They are 'supposed' to be the same thing, but are mechanically different.  There is no contextual difference, there is a ridiculous disparity which makes no sense.  

 

As far as showing a character who lost a lot from the experience...  I don't buy it.  Exorcism explicitly states what one loses for it, to start.  It doesn't make sense that you'd lose more Characteristics or Talents.

 

While Insanity can be lowered slightly (down to the base Bonus level you have; 19 can go down to 10, but a 21 can only go to 20), the book has this to say on Removing Corruption: 

"The insidious touch of the Ruinous Powers represents a permanent taint on the soul, and is normally impossible to remove. It is this permanence that makes Chaos so difficult to combat, for once it is within someone, it grows and festers like a  tainted wound. It is possible though, in very rare situations, for the effects of corruption to be lessened. This is always an extraordinary occurrence, and might happen once in a campaign at most. It could represent a visitation from a Living Saint after her shrine was successfully purged of foul cultists eager to perform a ritual desecration, the blessing from an Arch-Cardinal for the respectful recovery of a holy relic used millennia ago to banish a Greater Daemon, or some similarly powerful and singular event. This can only reduce Corruption by a small measure, usually no more than 1 or 2 points."
Bolding of important bits is mine.  Seeing as the immediate Corruption from being possessed is 2d10+10...  Yeah, no.  This isn't something you just get rid of.  Especially not before the game even starts; being Exorcised is enough of a stretch as it is.  12 to 30 points of Corruption if you get Exorcised immediately and give the Daemon no chance to taint you some more, and its a once-in-a-campaign chance to lower it by 2.  
 
The Exorcised Background implicitly goes against the system and the main tenets of the game.  This ain't right.  And I'd never compare Possession to a bad breakup.  One sucks, yes.  The other is literally a daemon piggy-backing your body, causing all sorts of bad things, leaving an indelible stain on your soul.  I mean, some people might compare their exes to that, but I think the daemon is worse, every time.  

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It still isn't a question of context.  They are 'supposed' to be the same thing, but are mechanically different.  There is no contextual difference, there is a ridiculous disparity which makes no sense.  

 

Context is RP zone. Mechanics are rules zone. So you compare bananas to shotguns. Yes, the context is different, and since the rules are built in a specific ways, it fits different context, and it is applied to the way rules are made.

 

 

 

"The insidious touch of the Ruinous Powers represents a permanent taint on the soul, and is normally impossible to remove. It is this permanence that makes Chaos so difficult to combat, for once it is within someone, it grows and festers like a  tainted wound. It is possible though, in very rare situations, for the effects of corruption to be lessened. This is always an extraordinary occurrence, and might happen once in a campaign at most. It could represent a visitation from a Living Saint after her shrine was successfully purged of foul cultists eager to perform a ritual desecration, the blessing from an Arch-Cardinal for the respectful recovery of a holy relic used millennia ago to banish a Greater Daemon, or some similarly powerful and singular event. This can only reduce Corruption by a small measure, usually no more than 1 or 2 points."

 

Well, go tell that to the battle sisters that are immune to corruption, or grey knights that were (and will surely be when or if they are put in again).

 

 

 

 

The Exorcised Background implicitly goes against the system and the main tenets of the game.

 

Well, I don't think so and if a character plays it in my game, this will fit the setting and the mood and everything because in the end, it's a question of contexte and how you happen to master it as a game master.

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Yeah, you're making no sense now.  For one, the mechanics are supposed to represent your 'context.'  That isn't happening, which is a problem.  

 

This isn't bananas to shotguns, it is the Background not matching the setting or the set-down rules.  They implicitly contradict each other.  This suggests one of them is wrong.  The Background doesn't do what the rest of the rules say is supposed to happen, so it is pretty easy to figure out which one is wrong.  

 

Having an immunity to Corruption is different from removing it.  That is the quote from the book on Removing Corruption, not Gaining Corruption.  Some folks can be 'immune,' yes (keep in mind the Sister's Corruption goes straight into Insanity as well, they don't get off for nothing).  Just because they have a God-Emperor-given Teflon Soul Coat doesn't mean your normal materials (everybody else) won't stain.  

 

Answer me this.  How does getting Possessed without any 'protections' from Corruption (you can't combine a Sororitas and Exorcised Background) not get you Corruption?  Keep in mind, the minimum Corruption from being Possessed is 12 to 30, not including any collected Corruption from before you're Exorcised.  If you can't answer that, perhaps tell me how you cleanse 12-30 Corruption from someone when the book explicitly states you're lucky to purge 1 or 2 Corruption per campaign?

 

This isn't a matter of context.  It is a glaring error, the only one I've found with an otherwise enjoyable book.  

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This isn't a matter of context.  It is a glaring error, the only one I've found with an otherwise enjoyable book.  

 

I don't think you can say that it's a "glaring error", when the bottom of page 71 makes the author's intentions pretty clear:

 

"Note that these rules differ somewhat from the Exorcised background (see page 32), representing that here the character's primary background was not determined from his earlier, life-changing, daemonic encounter."

 

So although I agree with InquisitorAlexel, Mkall, and the authors, I'm not going to get up in arms about it.

GM it how you see fit - they are supplementary rules, after all.

 

Easy fix? Just make the "Excorsized" background a "Daemonic Witness" background. Done.

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Yeah, I wouldn't call having no Corruption or Insanity from being Possessed by a Daemon a 'differ somewhat' situation.  

 

Your suggestion of making it a 'Witness' Background is nice, though.  I think I'll do that, flavor it as 'you're a survivor of some kind of attack; Ork invasion, daemonic incursion, Dark Eldar raid, etc.'  Let the Hatred be more flexible, have the Malignancy be something involving your Hatred.  

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For one, the mechanics are supposed to represent your 'context.'  That isn't happening, which is a problem.  

 

No. Mechanics are supposed to represent MANY contexts. Your character's background is a context. Your character actual gameplay is a context. A spaceship battle is a context. A possession forced by a cult is a context, and bolt to the head while being possessed is a context. There are many contexts, and if you can't see the difference between: 

 

"-Before my character is being played as a player character, this happened to him.

-Now that I'm playing my character I get daemonically r*ped."

 

Then I can't do nothing for you.

 

 

 

 

Answer me this.  How does getting Possessed without any 'protections' from Corruption (you can't combine a Sororitas and Exorcised Background) not get you Corruption?  Keep in mind, the minimum Corruption from being Possessed is 12 to 30, not including any collected Corruption from before you're Exorcised.  If you can't answer that, perhaps tell me how you cleanse 12-30 Corruption from someone when the book explicitly states you're lucky to purge 1 or 2 Corruption per campaign?

 

Who said, where, when, that a possessed character didn't get insanity nor corruption? 

 

Your background is your past. In the first place, if you're allowed to live and serve after being possessed, your inquisitor clearly favoured you and thought you being important. So there could have been done dozens of things to the character to justify that, as with any background that should give corruption/insanity points, your character do not ANYMORE.

 

 

 

One is a thing of the past, with many things between now and then, and the other is an actual thing that happen right now when you play it.

 

These are two different contexts, with two different sets of rules.

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A PC with the mutant background starts with 10 corruption.

A psyker PC gets 1d10+3 corruption points the instant they take the elite advance, unless they are sanctioned.

 

 

Yet the exorcized background comes with 0 cp. Stranger still is the malignancy, something that can only come from corruption that the exorcized PC lacks.

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That's the thing; if the two events are the same thing, the effects should be the about the same pre- or post- character creation.  There shouldn't be a difference this ludicrous.  Maybe if there were different 'degrees' of Possession that had different amounts of Insanity/Corruption, I could agree.  There aren't.  There's the Daemon taking over and the Daemon being subtle; both do 2d10+10 Corruption and the Exorcism causes 3d10 Insanity, not including what the Daemon does with you before the Exorcism. 

 

The lack of Insanity and Corruption, obviously.  They aren't something you treat with antibiotics for a week and it clears up.  

 

Okay, please look at how you reduce Insanity and Corruption, to start.  It is near impossible to reduce them back to zero unless you luck out a lot and took minimal Insanity or Corruption in the first place.  No, Inquisitors can't just do 'dozens of things' to fix you, at a certain point.  It doesn't work for Corruption, it only works for Insanity by the Insanity bonus you have.  Once you hit a certain point, they can't fix you any more.  Trying to stand by this premise doesn't work.

 

Any Background that should, by how it is written, give Corruption, should.  This is represented by the unsanctioned Psyker Elite Advance and the Mutant.  Why would being Possessed be any different?  Why would it be better?  There's also no example saying 'oh, after a few years you get better.'  Examples given state that you don't ever gt better without the intervention of things like Living Saints.

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Any Background that should, by how it is written, give Corruption, should.  This is represented by the unsanctioned Psyker Elite Advance and the Mutant.  Why would being Possessedbe any different?  Why would it be better?  There's also no example saying 'oh, after a few years you get better.'  Examples given state that you don't ever gt better without the intervention of things like Living Saints.

 

As I said a few posts before, I agree with this fact and I said myself that I would have done it differently. 

 

Still, these are still two gaming contexts where you get the effect, so the difference in effet being different doesn't bother me.

 

But yeah, I would have done it different.

 

On the other hand, I will read through it (just bought the book yesterday and was to occupied to take time for it) and have a better feel of it

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, please look at how you reduce Insanity and Corruption, to start.  It is near impossible to reduce them back to zero unless you luck out a lot and took minimal Insanity or Corruption in the first place.  No, Inquisitors can't just do 'dozens of things' to fix you, at a certain point.  It doesn't work for Corruption, it only works for Insanity by the Insanity bonus you have.  Once you hit a certain point, they can't fix you any more.  Trying to stand by this premise doesn't work.

 

Insanity is pretty easy to drop, in fact. 100XP for each point. It's costy, but on a long term game, is easily doable. We had many games where hundreds if not thousand of XP were spent avoiding degrees of madnass and such, because we wehre all okay with our acolytes staying weaker for the sake of keeping them sane.

 

But corruption isn't, indeed. Still, there are exceptions, because there are ways in the background to check it.

 

It even depends on which source materials, where people can just ignore it by pure will, even without being sisters or grey knights, so why not a very devoted, strong of will, back-up by an Inquisitor and suffering all sorts of purification process guy that was possessed? Should it be a background that could be taken by lots of players? Obviously not.

 

 

But is it against the theme of faith, miracles and fanatism of the 40k universe? Absolutely not.

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Oh boyz, dont get a heart attack over this issue.

 

I'd just consider this background as a step twoards mind-cleansed (the character does not get another background...think about why this happens...), which could be a reason why the background shows no insanity or corruption (as the memories are deeply burrowed or even completely erased), and the possession in-game does (the character still has full memories).

 

But what else is there to tell about enemies beyond ?

 

Any "old" DH1 talents returning ?

 

What additional plantes are described ?

 

Are there new reinforcement characters and vehicles ?

 

Are there any new weapons that are Rare or more common (means, they actually might have an appearance in games) ?

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Or perhaps the character was on a pilgrimage for a big chunk of his/her life about being exorcised, trying to find redemption/soul cleansing by stepping in the footsteps of saints, visiting shrine worlds and the like.

 

Go wild.

Edited by Gridash

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Yeah, no anger on my part.  As far as weapons and such go, I have to say 7 out of 12 new melee weapons are hammers.  And I love those hammers.  There's some insane damage options available.  

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