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KillingTime

Null v Psyker - force weapons

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This situation arose during our game on Monday:

 

A null was in combat with a psyker who was attempting to relieve him of body parts using her force sword.

 

Deny the Witch states that the null can use his WP to evade psychic attacks, but the wording was vague enough that we couldn't quite figure out how this would effect the force sword, since there are several steps involved.

 

1. The force sword counts as a mono blade with a bonus to pen and damage due to be wielded by a psyker.

Since the psyker had already had her psy rating degraded by the null field we figured this was already taken care of.

 

2. So the incoming attack is a psychically charged attack (albeit slightly weakened by the null field), so can the null use his WP to dodge this attack?

Narratively the psyker finds it more difficult to focus on her target and swings wildly.

 

or

 

3. The WS test is treated as a normal attack, with damage as per the mono blade + psy bonus - and only at that point does the null grant a WP test to avoid the effects of the soul burning that comes afterwards (already an opposed WP test)

 

In the end we played it the second way (ie step 3) and our null took the psy enhanced melee damage but easily avoided the soul burning.

However we were all a bit confused and it certainly felt unsatisfactory to me. If I'd been GM I'd have played it according to 2 above.

 

Has anyone else come across this, and if so how did you play it?

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2. So the incoming attack is a psychically charged attack (albeit slightly weakened by the null field), so can the null use his WP to dodge this attack?

 

Psyker can't use it.

"When using a psychic power, the psyker must choose an effective psy rating for the power that is equal to or below his base psy rating. This value must be at least 1." and "In addition, whenever a psyker damages an opponent, he may take a Focus Power action (Opposed with Willpower) as a Half Action."
So if you finished his BPR with null field you finished his ability to take Focus Power action, so he can't use psychically charged attack.

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Sorry, I'm not sure I understand.

 

The psyker can't trigger the soul burn ability of the force sword because she can't focus in the presence of the null field?

 

That could be something we missed, but doesn't answer when (or even if) deny the witch triggers.

 

Thanks

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The psyker can't trigger the soul burn ability of the force sword because she can't focus in the presence of the null field?

 

 

Yup. If his PR became 0, he can't use Focus Power actions. If not, though, his sword have bonus to attack, pen, and also became Energy (sometimes it's matter). 
About 2nd and 3rd - no, null can't evade Soul Burn. Force Weapon first strike normally, and if strike with success it can use Soul Burn ("In addition, whenever a psyker damages an opponent, he may take a Focus Power action (Opposed with Willpower) as a Half Action."). Then, when Soul Burn activating, attack is successed already, and opposed check isn't Evasion. Null get bonuses from Resistance (Psychic Powers) and Psychic Null, if he had latter (and they're stacking, so it's +30) though.
Edited by Aenno

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I think 1+3 would be the correct way as well. 

Deny the witch says that the character gets the bonuses against psychic powers. Wielding the sword just with WS as normal, in my opinion, wouldn't classify as psy power. From narrative point of view, the bonuses for increased pen and damage could come from the Psy being tuned with the weapon, being able to wield it better than a normal human, and not from a power.

The defending character would get the Deny the witch bonus at the opposed test.
If the psy's standard psy rating gets reduced to 0 from the Warp anathema talent, he wouldn't be able to make a focus power test.

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The defending character would get the Deny the witch bonus at the opposed test.

 

Deny the Witch doesn't give bonus. It allows to use Willpower evading psychic attack.

Edited by Aenno

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The defending character would get the Deny the witch bonus at the opposed test.

 

Deny the Witch don't give bonus. It allows to use Willpower when evading psychic attack.

 

 

 

This is my issue

Deny the Witch allows you to use WP when evading a psychic attack. The question is which (if any) part of being smacked with a force sword counts as a psychic attack?

 

1. Is it the whole thing, because the force sword is psychically charged by the psyker at the beginning of the sequence?

 

2. Is it just the soul burn, because the force sword bonus is counted as a physical attack?

 

The problem is that while only the soul burning is obviously a psychic attack, it's only the initial melee attack that would allow the null to make an evade reaction.

 

So does the null get no bonus at all from deny the witch and have to rely entirely on his null field for blunting the initial attack, and his resistance psychic powers in aiding his opposed WP against the soul burn?

(which is what Aenno suggests)

It makes sense, though it seems harsh on the null.

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The question is which (if any) part of being smacked with a force sword counts as a psychic attack?

 

Deny the Witch don't allow you to evade attack normally can't be evaded.

There is couple of powers that allows dodge them - with Dodge, of course, that's Agility. But if you have DtW, you can do it with WP (that you supposed to have at least 35 + dodge bonus), and you don't need to move.

But Soul Burn can't be dodged or parried, because sword attack making without psychic power, and it's succeful by default when Soul Burn happens. So it's just WP opposed test, with all bonuses to WP rolls he have. And it's not mental attack, so I'd ban using Strong Minded reroll, but it's open for discussions.

You can't Deny Enfeeble or Life Leech as well.

Edited by Aenno

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For me this is why I would allow the null to use his WP to dodge the original strike of the force sword.

The psyker has buffed the attack using her Psy rating, so it counts as a psychic attack and could be evaded with deny the witch.

 

I agree that soul burn isn't a straight out attack either and can't be dodged in the traditional sense.

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The psyker has buffed the attack using her Psy rating, so it counts as a psychic attack and could be evaded with deny the witch.

 

 

Attack isn't. Damage is. But Deny the Witch doesn't allow an owner to mitigate damage.
It's good and useful talent, but not something that makes somebody essentially Culexus. :)
Edited by Aenno

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Deny the Witch don't allow you to evade attack normally can't be evaded.

 

I will read it back home, but not sure I agree with you on that. But that's from memory.

 

 

In my opinion, Deny the Witch doesn't work on that kind of attack, since you can only have one reaction per attack, and the touch of the sword is the attack, the soul burn is just additionnal damage to an attack that hasn't been dodged/parried.

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I will read it back home, but not sure I agree with you on that. But that's from memory.

"The Acolyte draws on his faith and mental fortitude to act as his shield against those tainted by the Warp. The character may use his Willpower characteristic when making an Evasion Reaction against ranged or melee attacks against him made with psychic powers. When successfully evading an attack with an area of effect, the character does not move but instead is simply unaffected by the psychic power."

Selection is mine.

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It seems to me that Deny the witch would not help. The initial attack is not a psychic attack so must be dodged normally. Its more equivalent to a psychic buff power like iron arm or the attack buff part of fiery form. The psyker doesn't even have to take the psy power test if they don't want to and they don't make that choice until they have hit so its pretty difficult to argue deny the witch coming into affect.
Resistance psychic powers definitely helps as does warp disruption and warp anathema. Psychic null wouldn't help on the evasion test but it would still give a +20 bonus to the opposed test to resist the focus power test.

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The defending character would get the Deny the witch bonus at the opposed test.

 

Deny the Witch doesn't give bonus. It allows to use Willpower evading psychic attack.

 

 

Sorry, yes, got mixed up, the Psy Null talent mentioned the Deny the witch talent in it's description. 

I wanted to say the defending character will get the bonus +20 to resist from Psy Null on the opposed WP test

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Thanks for all the replies.

I am most convinced by the thought that deny the witch doesn't effect force swords at all. The psychic part of the attack simple isn't susceptible to evasion and the null has to rely on his other (considerable) types of resistance.

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