Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
DariusAPB

Hypothetical: If the Defender had boost.

Recommended Posts

 

I still think the Defenders don't need much of a fix. I think a title that reads something like this would be perfect for it:

 

TIE/x7 - Title -TIE Defender Only - 0 points:

After making a secondary weapon attack that hits, you may cancel all dice results and immediately perform a primary weapon attack against the same target.

 

This would actually have several great affects for the Defender. First, it would artificially lower the Defender's cost, as suddenly it'd be more practical to take the Flechette Cannon (2 points) or Ion Cannon (3 points) over the Heavy Laser Cannon (7 points), because with the Flechette or Ion Cannons, you'd actually have a potential to do even more damage than the Heavy Laser Cannon (up to 4 damage at range 2-3, up to 5 at range 1), in addition to giving the enemy an inconvenient token such as stress or ion. So, since even the aces like Rexler or Vessery would be encouraged to take the cheaper cannons, this in a way reduces the cost you'd be paying for them by 4-5 points. Also, say the Tractor Beam token lowers the ship's agility dice by one or something along those lines, getting to make the primary attack after the secondary attack rather than before would allow the Defender to capitalize on the Tractor Beam token's effect in the same round that the Defender deals the token. This is also an excellent thematic fix, as Defenders were supposed to have that linked-fire system, and were also supposed to be able to use Tractor Beams to hold their enemies in place while they opened up with their weaponry. 

 

To me, this is the perfect solution. The Defender doesn't need Boost or Evade actions. Its action economy is already rough enough. What it needs is for the cheaper cannons to be more practical for it to take than the Heavy Laser Cannon so you wouldn't be paying such a ridiculous amount for your ship. 

 

This idea is not bad. If you'd add a -4 point cost for cannon upgrades, I'd probably buy it.

 

This basically already is a -4 or more point cost already. Through this upgrade, you're basically getting the equivalent of a super Heavy Laser Cannon, a value of 8+ points, for only 2-3 points, depending on if you want Flechette or Ion. For example, if you were to take the cheapest Defender with a Heavy Laser Cannon and nothing else, that's 37 points. Or with this upgrade, you could get a Defender with the same damage output, attacks twice in a round making it more likely to strip Focus or Evade tokens from your enemy, adds an Ion or Stress token if it hits, and is only 32-33 points. I'd say that's more than enough to fix the Defender. 

Edited by Underachiever599

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I still think the Defenders don't need much of a fix. I think a title that reads something like this would be perfect for it:

 

TIE/x7 - Title -TIE Defender Only - 0 points:

After making a secondary weapon attack that hits, you may cancel all dice results and immediately perform a primary weapon attack against the same target.

 

This would actually have several great affects for the Defender. First, it would artificially lower the Defender's cost, as suddenly it'd be more practical to take the Flechette Cannon (2 points) or Ion Cannon (3 points) over the Heavy Laser Cannon (7 points), because with the Flechette or Ion Cannons, you'd actually have a potential to do even more damage than the Heavy Laser Cannon (up to 4 damage at range 2-3, up to 5 at range 1), in addition to giving the enemy an inconvenient token such as stress or ion. So, since even the aces like Rexler or Vessery would be encouraged to take the cheaper cannons, this in a way reduces the cost you'd be paying for them by 4-5 points. Also, say the Tractor Beam token lowers the ship's agility dice by one or something along those lines, getting to make the primary attack after the secondary attack rather than before would allow the Defender to capitalize on the Tractor Beam token's effect in the same round that the Defender deals the token. This is also an excellent thematic fix, as Defenders were supposed to have that linked-fire system, and were also supposed to be able to use Tractor Beams to hold their enemies in place while they opened up with their weaponry. 

 

To me, this is the perfect solution. The Defender doesn't need Boost or Evade actions. Its action economy is already rough enough. What it needs is for the cheaper cannons to be more practical for it to take than the Heavy Laser Cannon so you wouldn't be paying such a ridiculous amount for your ship. 

 

This idea is not bad. If you'd add a -4 point cost for cannon upgrades, I'd probably buy it.

 

Rex would still need something in there allowing him to modify the second attack. It doesn't quite work with his ability.

 

Vessary, on the other hand, would be crazygonuts, with the potential for free target locks and some weird synergy with Cluster Missiles (make first attack, deal damage, make second attack, cancel damage unless you have a great roll, make third attack with Primary weapon). And that's without even getting into the assorted cannon shenanigans. His pilot skill and the fact that clusters are a one-off would be the only thing keeping this remotely close to balanced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The defenders meant to be the state of the art fighter so it should be a little OP, duel cannons would be nice.

Why should a ship that's thematically powerful be overpowered relative to its price, as compared to other game elements?

 

because defender!

 

 

Don't the leading mathwingers states that the Defender is overpriced by about 3-4 points?

Look what we got for the Advanced, and this ship was considered as overpriced by about 2 points.

Love the Advanced fix - its a very good ship and not overpowered, just because it has a reasonable use now.

 

It won me a few games .... in fact I havn't lost one yet using Advanced - but this includes 2 wins against other Advanced lists.

 

 

Unless it has changed, he has also stated that he hasn't quite nailed down the white K-turn. Not saying they aren't overcosted, but it is kind of tough to figure out. Considering the success some have had with the uniques, I'm not quite ready to toss the ship out as being that overcosted. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This basically already is a -4 or more point cost already. Through this upgrade, you're basically getting the equivalent of a super Heavy Laser Cannon, a value of 8+ points, for only 2-3 points, depending on if you want Flechette or Ion. For example, if you were to take the cheapest Defender with a Heavy Laser Cannon and nothing else, that's 37 poinst. Or with this upgrade, you could get a Defender with the same damage output, attacks twice in a round making it more likely to strip Focus or Evade tokens from your enemy, adds an Ion or Stress token if it hits, and is only 32-33 points. I'd say that's more than enough to fix the Defender. 

 

 

 

 

Except that it really isn't the equivalent - the majority of the damage potential, the primary attack, would be affected by the range 3 defence bonus, and having two attacks to make in a round prevents the Defender from modifying them as easily as a single HLC shot, as well as all but guaranteeing Rex's ability, already a 'when the planets align' event, comes into play even less.

When even a modestly upgraded Defender can easily surpass 40pts, a saving of 4-5 points but a drastic reduction in damage compared to the HLC option doesn't help - when you're spending those kinds of points on a single, fairly fragile ship, it needs to be throwing out a LOT of damage to compensate.

Personally, I think the long-overdue Defender fix could be as simple as a discount of 3/4 points on all cannons, or as complex as my personal ideas:

 

 

'Onyx Squadron Elite'

Title - TIE Defender Only

0pts

 

If your Pilot Skill is "5" or lower, increase your Pilot Skill by 2, and your upgrade bar gains one EPT icon.

After executing a green manoeuvre, you may recover 1 shield.

 

 

Linked Cannon System

Cannon - TIE Defender Only. Limited.

1pt

 

Your upgrade bar gains one Cannon icon.

 

After performing a primary weapon attack, if the attack hits, you may apply any non-damage effects from an equipped Cannon upgrade card without cancelling attack dice.

 

 

'Fluff' for the Defender is the main inspiration for these abilities (a dangerous precedent, perhaps):

 

-Allegedly the best pilots in the Imperial fleet, it seems thematically flawed that their generic PS values are lower when compared with the generics for every other ship besides the TIE Fighter and Interceptor. At the same time, I don't think a base PS10 would be reasonable, hence the restriction of this part of the card to the generic pilots. The addition of the EPT to the generics would help make them a lot more viable, also.

 

-Repeatedly the Defender is described as being fast, while also having rapidly regenerating shields that did not overly tax propulsion. The second ability of the title follows this description, and addresses the Defenders comparative frailty in combat. Restricting this to green manoeuvres keeps shield regeneration in line with R2-D2 while also allowing the Defender to maintain speed, given that its 5-straight is natively green.

 

-The linked cannon is listed as a standard configuration, so to my mind it makes sense to allow it to be equipped without 'using up' existing slots, and without spending many additional points over the cost of the cannon itself. It makes Flechette or Ion cannons a viable selection for Defenders, without affecting the Heavy Laser or Mangler choices, while also allowing them to do something unique - i.e. allowing them to do full damage with the 'control' cannons.

 

Personally, I don't think adding Boost helps the Defender where it is most lacking, and I don't think it should have access to Autothrusters - it's not a very creative solution to the problem and would prevent the MKII Engine being used.

Edited by MalusCalibur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would like to see an integrated improved "Expose" EPT in all defenders as title:

 

"Until the end of the round, increase your attack value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1. Or vice versa."

 

 

 

This would make the defender terrifying on the table, but not overpowered (and a lot of tactical fun to play)

 

.

Edited by IG88E

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This basically already is a -4 or more point cost already. Through this upgrade, you're basically getting the equivalent of a super Heavy Laser Cannon, a value of 8+ points, for only 2-3 points, depending on if you want Flechette or Ion. For example, if you were to take the cheapest Defender with a Heavy Laser Cannon and nothing else, that's 37 poinst. Or with this upgrade, you could get a Defender with the same damage output, attacks twice in a round making it more likely to strip Focus or Evade tokens from your enemy, adds an Ion or Stress token if it hits, and is only 32-33 points. I'd say that's more than enough to fix the Defender. 

 

 

 

 

Except that it really isn't the equivalent - the majority of the damage potential, the primary attack, would be affected by the range 3 defence bonus, and having two attacks to make in a round prevents the Defender from modifying them as easily as a single HLC shot, as well as all but guaranteeing Rex's ability, already a 'when the planets align' event, comes into play even less.

When even a modestly upgraded Defender can easily surpass 40pts, a saving of 4-5 points but a drastic reduction in damage compared to the HLC option doesn't help - when you're spending those kinds of points on a single, fairly fragile ship, it needs to be throwing out a LOT of damage to compensate.

Personally, I think the long-overdue Defender fix could be as simple as a discount of 3/4 points on all cannons, or as complex as my personal ideas:

 

 

'Onyx Squadron Elite'

Title - TIE Defender Only

0pts

 

If your Pilot Skill is "5" or lower, increase your Pilot Skill by 2, and your upgrade bar gains one EPT icon.

After executing a green manoeuvre, you may recover 1 shield.

 

 

Linked Cannon System

Cannon - TIE Defender Only. Limited.

1pt

 

Your upgrade bar gains one Cannon icon.

 

After performing a primary weapon attack, if the attack hits, you may apply any non-damage effects from an equipped Cannon upgrade card without cancelling attack dice.

 

 

'Fluff' for the Defender is the main inspiration for these abilities (a dangerous precedent, perhaps):

 

-Allegedly the best pilots in the Imperial fleet, it seems thematically flawed that their generic PS values are lower when compared with the generics for every other ship besides the TIE Fighter and Interceptor. At the same time, I don't think a base PS10 would be reasonable, hence the restriction of this part of the card to the generic pilots. The addition of the EPT to the generics would help make them a lot more viable, also.

 

-Repeatedly the Defender is described as being fast, while also having rapidly regenerating shields that did not overly tax propulsion. The second ability of the title follows this description, and addresses the Defenders comparative frailty in combat. Restricting this to green manoeuvres keeps shield regeneration in line with R2-D2 while also allowing the Defender to maintain speed, given that its 5-straight is natively green.

 

-The linked cannon is listed as a standard configuration, so to my mind it makes sense to allow it to be equipped without 'using up' existing slots, and without spending many additional points over the cost of the cannon itself. It makes Flechette or Ion cannons a viable selection for Defenders, without affecting the Heavy Laser or Mangler choices, while also allowing them to do something unique - i.e. allowing them to do full damage with the 'control' cannons.

 

Personally, I don't think adding Boost helps the Defender where it is most lacking, and I don't think it should have access to Autothrusters - it's not a very creative solution to the problem and would prevent the MKII Engine being used.

 

What if the shield regen was on RED maneuvers?  Since defenders have a lot of them, and it provides a trade off, and it gives a slightly different mechanic from r2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I've been saying this forever: Defenders should have the evade action.  They probably needed the boost action. 

And they definitely needed the PS3 generic to have an EPT.  

I also said they needed 2slights green, but you can get that with the tie engine now. 

 

--

 

To your question, Its a hard one:  Auto will just make them so much more viable against turrets in this meta.  I think I'd pick that for raw better survivability.  

But then just focus all day.  Very little use of boost sadly. 

 

No, it would also help them to get into close combat, since AT helps in range 3 while attacking head-on. Boost is VERY useful after K-Turning to get a new angle for your next K-turn.

 

 

I'm not exactly sure what your answer means, but if you think that boosting around is better than focusing, there's piles of math and human experience to tell you otherwise.  Of course, use where neccessary, but you shouldnt be trying to boost into R1, if youre at R2 and are obviously in arcs after boosting.  

 

Defender suffers from action economy too:  no double actions easily.  No EPT on generics.  Vessery doesnt use predator. 

PTL requires tie mk2. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm no lore buff, but from a gameplay perspective Titles have always seemed like they should add something unique to the ship.

For me, Titles have always seemed like they were meant to represent non-standard models of a ship type.

 

In some cases, like the Falcon, that means a unique ship with unique modifications.

 

In other instances, like the Royal Guard TIE, that means a modified version of the ship, while not unique, is not the standard loadout for a ship of that type.

 

 

Titles I don't agree with thematically:

 

A-Wing Test Pilot:  This is clearly an upgrade for a Pilot, and not a special version of the A-Wing.  It should not have been a Title.  It should have been an A-Wing only EPT that gives you two additional EPT slots.

 

TIE/x1:  Is thematically incorrect, because there's no such thing as a NON-x1 TIE Advanced in the lore.  Lord Vader's TIE, and all other ships of that model, were the "TIE Advanced x1".  This card is not meant to represent a special version of the ship, it was obviously designed purely as a gameplay patch for a *****y ship, and then given an inappropriate name.

 

 

And they definitely needed the PS3 generic to have an EPT.

No, PS3 pilots should not have an EPT.  I'm annoyed enough already that PS4 Black Squadron pilots get them.

 

What they need, is a higher PS generic pilot, and THAT pilot has an EPT. 

Edited by DarthEnderX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No pilot who's skill is less than a 6 should be considered "Elite".  You aren't even in the top 50% of pilot skills.

 

Black Squadron pilots are handpicked among the best by Lord Vader himself.

Would you call him incompetent?

How dare you! Do I smell the stench of treachery? Are you a Rebel in secret? You should choose your next words wisely!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No pilot who's skill is less than a 6 should be considered "Elite".  You aren't even in the top 50% of pilot skills.

 

And yet we have sixteen examples:

 

Black Squadron (TIE Fighter)

Omega Squadron, Zeta Ace (FO TIE)

Commander Alozen (TIE Advanced)

Saber Squadron (TIE Interceptor)

Captain Oicunn (VT-49)

Green Squadron (A-Wing)

Etahn A'baht (E-Wing)

Red Squadron Veteran (T-70)

Chewbacca (YT 1300)

Leebo (YT 2400)

Tansarii Point Veteran (M3-A)

Black Sun Ace (Kihraxz)

Palob Godalhi (HWK-290)

Kaa'to Leachos (Z-95)

Guri (Starviper)

Mandalorian Mercenary (Firespray-31)

 

 

I think it would be very thematic to give EPT's to the generic Defenders - its pilots are supposed to be the best, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tie/D X7 MKII

Title, Tie Defender only

"When attacking with your primary weapon, if your attack hits the defender is assigned an ion token."

0 points

 

This would kind of integrate an ion cannon, but without the range 3 secondary weapon effect. Leaving the cannon slot for a tractor beam.

 

Would this be sufficient? Yes, no boost in this approach...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm...

 

I was just thinking (dangerous, I know!)

 

I don't want to give the Defender a title which essentially 'mimics' the ability of another ship's title.

So no 'Royal Guard' mods, no BTL-A4 'double tap', no 'Test Pilot' EPTs, no Integrated Astromech extra durability, and no TIE/x1/Virago systems slot.

 

So what is the TIE Defender? When you peel back the layers of hyperbole, it's a well-shielded heavy fighter which is well armed and blisteringly fast.

 

I also don't want to remove options. Engine Upgrade, Shield Upgrade and Twin Ion Engines MkII are all tatically useful upgrades and they should all stay useful.

 

 

A random idea I had to address the manouvrability and speed - originally these things could outpace Interceptors and A-wings, after all.

For a TIE/D title:

 

"Before you reveal your maneuver, you may perform speed 1 [straight] or [bank] maneuver"

 

It's not boost. This gives you the repositioning elements of boost - but an advanced sensors boost (effectively) without unlocking autothrusters and making you a dodging machine. It lets you turn - a 1 bank plus a 1 bank gives you a sweeping 'speed three-and-a-bit turn' which is green if you take Twin Ion Engines MkII.

 

Essentially, you can move slow, but you can move more efficiently fast. Much as with unhinged/engine upgrade y-wings, the Defender is a speed daemon.

 

More importantly, it allows a bit of flexibility in your party piece speed 4 K-turn - the bank makes it behave a bit more like a segnor's loop.

 

And finally, because it's not boost, theoretically you can still add an engine upgrade. If anyone's ever used Tycho with Daredevil and Experimental Interface, they'll know how ridiculous the resulting speed becomes - a ship so upgraded doing maximum straight speed would be doing an effective 'speed 9' (compared to speed 7 for a TIE interecptor or A-wing, speed 6 for a T-70 X-wing, or speed 4 for a T-65)

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not bad, Mr. Grendel. I like this idea.

 

To me, the Defender is not only faster, better, stronger - but the Empire's flying ion gun version 3 so to say (version 1 is the shuttle, version 2 the Gunboat).

 

But ... the not-boost boost right before the movement would eliminate one of the biggest drawbacks of the Defender: its predictability.

 

So, Yay!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet we have sixteen examples:

Yep!  And their aaall wrong.

 

Black Squadron pilots are handpicked among the best by Lord Vader himself.

Would you call him incompetent?

No.  I'm saying whichever FFGs designer decided not to make Black Squadron Pilots PS6 was.

Edited by DarthEnderX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Giving the defender boost; while nice, wouldn't fix its primary issues.

 

These are,

 

1. poor action economy

(you're sitting on a single token for both offense and defense, behind 3 green dice and a 6 "life total")

 

And

 

2. a mediocre dial (apart from the white 4K).

 

 

Fix both without increasing cost and it will be viable.

imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And yet we have sixteen examples:

Yep!  And their aaall wrong.

 

Black Squadron pilots are handpicked among the best by Lord Vader himself.

Would you call him incompetent?

No.  I'm saying whichever FFGs designer decided not to make Black Squadron Pilots PS6 was.

 

 

According to you, how much points should a PS6 Black Squadron Pilot cost?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that people are forgetting that pilot skill is a balance abstract. an A-wing is harder to fly than an X, hence it's PS1 to the X's 2.

 

PS 3 and 4 is generally where we get elite, with most uniques appearing after that as they are truly special.

 

There are outliers of course, notably royal guard pilots and....

Isn't that it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are. Because if it bothers you that much, either take the named black squadron pilots like Backstabber or give a generic Veteran Instincts.

The highest PS generic pilot was PS4 for much of the game's history - it's only since imperial aces that weve seen ps 5 and 6 generics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not bad, Mr. Grendel. I like this idea.

 

To me, the Defender is not only faster, better, stronger - but the Empire's flying ion gun version 3 so to say (version 1 is the shuttle, version 2 the Gunboat).

 

But ... the not-boost boost right before the movement would eliminate one of the biggest drawbacks of the Defender: its predictability.

 

So, Yay!

 

I think a title that granted this, a new tech slot and an evade action would be ok.  We couldn't take autothrusters, but then we would still have three good upgrade options with Mk. 2 engines, stealth device and engine upgrade.  It still wouldn't turn as fast as an interceptor either, which I think would be fine.  Seeing the defender bank, K-turn and then boost would be terrifying and not overboard compared to the BB8+PTL combo or the tie phantom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...