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DariusAPB

Hypothetical: If the Defender had boost.

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This is a tangent from another thread, but hear me out.

 

If the Defender had the boost action at 0 cost, what would you pick for a modification: Autothruster or MKII Engine, and why?

 

Would it make a difference if the Defender also had Evade at 0 extra cost?

 

Another What if: What if the Defender had a PS3-5 generic with EPT.

 

 

(Please accept that in my opinion the T/D should have all of the above).

Edited by DariusAPB

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I think it would be more interesting if it had a sensor slot. Advanced sensors + Engine Upgrade + White K-Turn = Fun

Back to your Question: I would simply take Autothrusters. They're to good at 3 Agillity Ships for those 2 Points, to not take them.

Edited by RougeLeader

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Giving the Sefender any extra actions on its bar isn't very useful without a solution to its existing action-economy problem. If it had boost, PTL would be the obvious first pick to solve exactly that problem, and PTL on a Defender implies Mk II TIE.

 

So then your logic is: With PTL MKII for the greens, without then AT for the defense?

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The Defender has an action problem - and the more actions you give it - the worse that problem becomes.

The generics can't solve the problem - though the EPT defenders can take something like predator or PTL. - Predator eliminates the need to take offensive actions - and frees up your action for a defensive action. PTL however is a problem on defenders without some way to relieve stress - and the lack of turns make it tough. Straight ahead + boost (now, via EU) is alright, but we get back to our action problem - as we're boosting to get slight turns.

IF the defender had boost action at 0 cost - PTL + MKII would be the go to, as now you can turn with the boost and roll. But - I'm playing a 39 + point ship (given that PTL and MK II are 4 and base defender is 30, but has no EPT - and the general pattern of +4 and ept being about 5 points))  I could for a bit more add a second gun - and take 2 ptl sabres - for 48 - which probably do more damage, and get more out of the green turn.

Evade action doesn't matter so much by itself - for the same reasoning above - you're adding an action - and taking it means not taking other actions. Couple that with the idea that focus on 3 agi when defending against multiple shots is on average going to prevent more damage than an evade - and the higher health of the ship - Evade's not super necessary.

Autothrusters however might proc pretty often with the white k-turn - and the cost benefit of the 0 cost boost would be fairly nice, as k-turn + boost is really nice - the problem here is now you're out of any defensive actions - and you're greens are gonna fail you and you're gonna die quickly.

I think the defender needs some other kind of fix entirely.

Ninja'd by Vorpal.

Edited by Ravncat

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Than we could call it the Defender/FO and I will buy 3 of them.

 

The Foofender

 

---

 

Right now I would take AT over MKII, to counter TLTs ... or at least to have a chance with PS1 Defenders vs. TLTs

It depends.

With AT I would have only 1 point left. There is not much what you could do with only 1 point as an imperial player ... so lets see what tractor beams do.

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(Please accept that in my opinion the T/D should have all of the above).

 

I accept your opinion, but I still find myself disagreeing with it.

 

Not because I think the Defender wouldn't benefit from these changes, but because it would end up just being turned into a Heavy Squint. That would both be dull, and a disservice to the grand TIE/D. We can do better.

 

To answer the thread, though: Engine MkII, as with 6 health behind 3 agility Autothrusters is far less essential than it would be on other ships, and it would unlock the dial to an extent that PtL is workable.

Edited by DR4CO

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After seeing the Talon Roll, it's clear the Defender needs a specialized hybrid of Barrel-Roll and Boost. Think a Boost where you can micro-slide left/right w/ Agency after the template is laid out. This "control" would make Defenders that much different than other TIEs.

 

'Cos that's really the Defender's the problem... Other TIEs fly exactly the same if not better.

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Boost would be sick on a defender.    Unless they made is a Title that takes a modification slot also.    Otherwise every defender would have auto thrusters and would stay at range 3 joining the current merry go round fun!   which I hate  

 

 

My Ideas for Tie Defender fix

Title and Modification

Best Pilots in the Galaxy (similar to prototype pilot for A-wing)

1 Pt

Tie Defender Only

Add and EPT to your upgrade bar.  When performing a 3 hard turn you may choose to Tallon Roll instead.    Choose after revealing your dial, but before placing the template.

 

or 

 

Title:

Synchronized Weapons  (Like the BTL A4)

1 Pt

Tie Defender Only

When you have a cannon equipped that is less than 3 points, you may immediately fire it after any primary weapon attack.

Edited by eagletsi111

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My Ideas for Tie Defender fix
Title and Modification
Best Pilots in the Galaxy (similar to prototype pilot for A-wing)
1 Pt
Tie Defender Only
Add and EPT to your upgrade bar.  When performing a 3 hard turn you may choose to Tallon Roll instead.    Choose after revealing your dial, but before placing the template.
 
or 
 
Title:
Synchronized Weapons  (Like the BTL A4)
1 Pt
Tie Defender Only
When you have a cannon equipped that is less than 3 points, you may immediately fire it after any primary weapon attack.

 

 

Why not just release both?  There's no reason why only the Firespray gets more than one title available to it.

 

The only changes I'd make is to only add the EPT if they don't already have it, and make Synchronized weapons free so you can have three defenders with linked Ion Cannons.  Also, I wouldn't combine Mod and Title.  Not only would the icons not work out (because they don't have any,) it would also greatly reduce their customizability.

 

Also, I'd have them receive a stress token if they decide to Talon Roll.  Seeing as how they get to choose what they do after they reveal the dial, that is massively advantageous to high PS pilots.

Edited by rabid1903

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Boost would be sick on a defender.    Unless they made is a Title that takes a modification slot also.    Otherwise every defender would have auto thrusters and would stay at range 3 joining the current merry go round fun!   which I hate  

 

The "merry go round" is still limited to your metagame, and still really easy to counter: you just stop doing it and attack your opponent.

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I have often stated that the Defender is missing the boost action.  At 30 points base, it really should be able to Boost and Roll.

This may be enough to fix the Defender at ZERO cost.  Don't believe me?  Fly your favorite Defender build, but add Boost the the action bar.  A Boost after a White K-turn is just sick!  The two named pilots can then take Predator for re-rolls.  The Generics will need help from other sources. (Howlrunner, Fleet Officer, Jonas, Etc.)

 

I am against the idea of giving the Defender the evade action.  That would be a bit broken.  This is a jouster.  It is the Imperial B-wing (and by definition should be BETTER than the terrorist's desperate attempt to stand against the Empire).  Its defense is a good offense.  With three green (I know, I know... green die suck), 3 hull, and 3 shield, the evade action would be overkill. 

Edited by Stone37

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(Please accept that in my opinion the T/D should have all of the above).

 

Also agree.  At 30 points.... the Delta SHOULD have an EPT and the Boost action native.  Perhaps that's the fix at cost zero.  Then the question becomes, should the named Defenders get a SECOND EPT because of the title?

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Its defense is a good offense.  With three green (I know, I know... green die suck), 3 hull, and 3 shield, the evade action would be overkill. 

 

You know, I actually lean on green dice when playing Defenders, and I think its stats let you.  You can set yourself up for an aggressive move where you know you'll take a punch back, but you get a really good shot.  When you're attacked, maybe the greens come through, maybe they don't.  If they do, awesome, you're only 0-1 hp down.  If you get 3 blanks, maybe your 3 shields are gone, but you're still in the fight.  It's not a TIE Interceptor where any damage is scary damage.  You have a tall stack of chips you can gamble with.  It lets you take risks.  

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So, now we have boost, EPT, 2nd cannon slot, title that let fire primary and cannon, as long as this cannon is not more then 3 points.

Altogether as a title for 0 points.

 

Who is going to make the order?

Hey... I love me some Defenders... but that's just broken.  Why does it need more than one cannon?  I don't think all of these ideas should be bundled together.  I'm also a fan of the "linked" fire idea as a single fix.

 

 

Its defense is a good offense.  With three green (I know, I know... green die suck), 3 hull, and 3 shield, the evade action would be overkill. 

 

You know, I actually lean on green dice when playing Defenders, and I think its stats let you.  You can set yourself up for an aggressive move where you know you'll take a punch back, but you get a really good shot.  When you're attacked, maybe the greens come through, maybe they don't.  If they do, awesome, you're only 0-1 hp down.  If you get 3 blanks, maybe your 3 shields are gone, but you're still in the fight.  It's not a TIE Interceptor where any damage is scary damage.  You have a tall stack of chips you can gamble with.  It lets you take risks.  

 

Exactly.  With all confidence you can fly your Defender right into the face of another ship and know you're flying away from that exchange.  That white K-turn will then give you the upper hand in the next pass if they are dumb enough to give up their action to K-turn with you.

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Why does it need more than one cannon?

 

Tractor Beam

 

It might ONLY need the tractor Beam.  We don't even know what that cannon does yet.  I just don't think the Defender is big enough to carry two cannons.  That's the Agressor's shtick.  

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Why does it need more than one cannon?

 

Tractor Beam

 

It might ONLY need the tractor Beam.  We don't even know what that cannon does yet.  I just don't think the Defender is big enough to carry two cannons.  That's the Agressor's shtick.  

 

 

Tie Defenders are equipped with Tractor Beams AND Ion Cannons.

I want to have this in X-Wing, too.

 

No matter what the beam does

Edited by TheRealStarkiller

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I think boost action is too much when looking at autothrusters.

 

It should be something "new", like Lorrir´s ability just a bit improved:

"When performing a barrel roll action, you may use the (bank left 1) or (bank right 1) template instead of the (staight 1) template."

 

-> Wonderful fix ;)

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