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Warl

Melee? Is it Me? Or typical of players?

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I'm aware of who he is, I was more interested whether the measurement is in a race or not, because it matters. In a race he's reacting to the sound of a starting pistol.

 

The whole 2.6 feet thing makes me laugh, he's implying that in .4 seconds a person can only cover 2.6 feet. That's the length of the average person's walking stride.  I can one legged hop 7 feet in less than .4 secs.  I can laterally hop over 5 feet in less than .4 seconds.  I guarantee Usain Bolt is covering a **** ton more ground in his first .4 secs out of the blocks than 2.6 feet.

Edited by 2P51

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On the subject of melee fighting, does anyone increase or upgrade the difficulty for PCs trying to use a lightsaber if they aren't force sensitive? Because from the way the rules read, one could make an exceptionally high Brawn character and be quite successful at wielding a lightsaber, regardless of force sensitivity.

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Nope, and with a high Brawn and just using that as a base skill you would have a decent attack.  The talent trees in F&D have the real goodies for them.

Surprising. I thought there was inherent danger using one if you weren't force sensitive and trained in their use. Makes it kinda odd cuz you could be a non force sensitive Jawa and wield a lightsaber decently.

Anyone see anything wrong with imposing setback dice/upgrading/increasing difficulty for one that is neither powered by the force or trained in the use of lightsabers?

I'm thinking maybe upgrade once if not force sensitive and impose 1 setback die if not properly trained/has little experience with it.

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Nope, and with a high Brawn and just using that as a base skill you would have a decent attack.  The talent trees in F&D have the real goodies for them.

Surprising. I thought there was inherent danger using one if you weren't force sensitive and trained in their use. Makes it kinda odd cuz you could be a non force sensitive Jawa and wield a lightsaber decently.

Anyone see anything wrong with imposing setback dice/upgrading/increasing difficulty for one that is neither powered by the force or trained in the use of lightsabers?

I'm thinking maybe upgrade once if not force sensitive and impose 1 setback die if not properly trained/has little experience with it.

 

 

If you want a lazy answer, deny your player from buying skill ranks in the lightsaber skill if not force sensitive. I personally would/will strongly consider doing that and upgrade the check once, because lightsaber.

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I don't consider the lightsaber to be special beyond requiring its own skill. Non-Force Sensitive lightsaber wielders can be quite formidable, but much of the power of using a lightsaber comes from Talents that require a Force Rating. But when it comes to just swinging it and killing things, no Force use is necessary.

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On the subject of melee fighting, does anyone increase or upgrade the difficulty for PCs trying to use a lightsaber if they aren't force sensitive? Because from the way the rules read, one could make an exceptionally high Brawn character and be quite successful at wielding a lightsaber, regardless of force sensitivity.

I would upgrade the difficulty by at least one level for anyone who was Force Sensitive but not trained in Lightsaber, because it has a massless blade and doesn’t balance like anything else in the Galaxy. Well, hardly anything else.

I would upgrade the difficulty by at least another level for someone who wasn’t Force Sensitive and was untrained.

And yes, on a Despair, you would definitely wind up amputating something you didn’t want to cut off, but you might not wind up accidentally killing someone or something.

Base difficulty and setbacks would be determined by the exact situation and the environmental circumstances.

If you’ve got training in the Lightsaber skill, then I would remove at least some or all of the upgrades, depending on whether or not you were Force Sensitive.

But maybe that’s just me. YMMV.

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What does your attacker do that prevents you from backing away?

 

He punches you in the face, or kicks the side of your knee, or stomps your foot, or lunges with his sword, or smacks you with his staff, etc.

Or even more simply.  he doesn't 'prevent you from backing away', he simply keeps pace so that you're never in the clear.

 

Easily found examples of two people engaged in melee combat: boxers.

When one boxer wants to get clear of the second, how does the second prevent it?  He follows, and stays on the attack.  (And boxing is a "gentleman's sport", where people aren't *actually* trying to kill one another.)

 

Combat is fast and fluid, and the effective reach of a trained combatant is a few *multiples* of his arm's length, even with fighting bare handed.  Throw a sword into the equation, and even I, with the minimal training I have, can attack someone within about 15 feet of me quite easily.

 

Read up on the Tueller Drill.  An attacker with a knife is a lethal threat to anyone within 7 yards (plus a few, depending on the circumstances).

 

There is a pause, and in that pause is what I am talking about, at that point someone with a gun in their hand will be able to move away.  There is no instantaneous 'you're right on them' response, that's a myth that the human body is not physically capable of performing.

 

 

So, you're claiming that *anyone* who is assaulted by an armed person is *guaranteed* to be able to escape *without harm* just by turning and running?

Or is that somehow a special trait gained by having "a gun in their hand"?

 

If that's the case, why does *nobody* teach that, and why are there so many injuries involving people being stabbed, clubbed, etc. while trying to escape an armed assailant?

No police department, no branch of the military, and no *competent* self-defense instructor will claim that you are guaranteed to be able to get away safely by turning your back on an attacker and running.

 

Face it, your claims of being able to escape melee combat range that easily simply don't bear out in real life.

 

Here's some proof for you, in video form.

 

The starting gun fires a hair after 12 seconds.

Look how far from the starting blocks the racers are at 13 seconds, subtract out that 0.4 second response time that you haven't disputed, and the fraction of a second between the 0:12 mark and the gun, and the runners still have the runners still have 100% of your allotted 0.4 seconds to accelerate as hard and fast as they can, and they're *still* in knife range.  And that's world-class sprinters, starting with every advantage available to them.

 

Sometime around the 13.5 second mark, they've covered enough distance to be safe from a stationary attacker, but that's also more than double the time you're claiming a normal person will need.

Edited by Voice

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I guess it's a good thing this is a made-up universe in which the main "heroes" almost never die except when it serves to advance the plot in some way. A universe where one can apparently use magic and have laser guns that almost never run out of shots. A universe in which teddy bears can beat the utter crap out of trained soldiers. Never underestimate teddy bears.

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I guess it's a good thing this is a made-up universe in which the main "heroes" almost never die except when it serves to advance the plot in some way. A universe where one can apparently use magic and have laser guns that almost never run out of shots. A universe in which teddy bears can beat the utter crap out of trained soldiers. Never underestimate teddy bears.

 

Yep.  And even *in* that universe, absent invoking the Force (which hasn't been a part of the conversation at all), heroes aren't depicted as being more than twice as fast as the fastest human alive today.  They still obey basic laws of physics that are *remarkably* similar to the laws of physics that *we* observe.

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So the point of discussion here is whether one deems it worthy of needing to house rule some sort of disengage action/maneuver or not?

 

Some completely untested and random ideas that come to mind.

 

Why not keep it simple and make the escapee take strain and a maneuver to disengage but keep you in engaged range? If they wanted to gain further ground they would need to suffer an additional 2 strain to take a second maneuver. Eventually they will reach their threshold or deal with the threat at hand.

 

Or one could have the pursuant make a grappling check the moment someone tries to disengage, so there's always a chance of not getting away.

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I guess it's a good thing this is a made-up universe in which the main "heroes" almost never die except when it serves to advance the plot in some way. A universe where one can apparently use magic and have laser guns that almost never run out of shots. A universe in which teddy bears can beat the utter crap out of trained soldiers. Never underestimate teddy bears.

I just wouldn't bother GG. I'd warned you in the PM before.

Back to the lightsaber question, I don't think there's anything wrong with assigning greater difficulty to using one. The system RAW doesn't impose one but I think it could use it. Sort of elevate the mystique of them.

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Are you seriously thinking that the guy with the knife gets to move but the guy with the gun doesn't? Why is the guy with the gun not beginning his 0.x second run before the guy with the knife even gets within 2 meters? If you're going to make disengagement the sore spot of turn-based play, consider that without such turns, the guy with the knife may never even get close enough to make a swing.

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I'm curious how Pre Viszla was able to wield the Darksaber so well. I'm guessing through a lot of practice, though he was neither trained in Jedi arts or force sensitive.

 

Since a Dark-saber is obviously clearly inherently totally different from a Light-saber I don't see your point :D (jokes aside)

 

If you want a lazy answer...

 

As said, lazy answer, as in not recommended. One problem with this is, you could train in lightsaber without having ever seen a lightsaber which I personally find unflavourful, probably through thorough research - which actually makes sense now that I think about it...especially if the player gives me a good in-character reason for this. Obsessed scholar or archeologist, secretive dead relatives... :huh: might have to rethink my stance on that.

 

Shows again that everything in this game works out if you make it work. ^_^

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The point lost in this.. move vs counter move discussion, is that when combat hits in this game, Melee is pathetically easily to counter. Melee beatstick tooled up or not it's far to simple after he dives in to simply maneuver back, aim (if wanted), blap him and let the rest of your party wipe him out. (same holds true for a player rush up and attack just to watch the baddie saunter away and a firing line form up as he stands there than gets blown apart robocop style)

 

It's also incredibly intensive on actions for a player to REMAIN in melee combat. How many turns do your PCs just double aim and fire? Sure not the same guy constantly but you get a battery of it where someone isn't under immediate threat so they take the strain and blast someone to shreds vs how many times a melee character just gets to focus on pounding someone with that big axe or sword. Ontop of Melee being average vs most ranged combat tending towards the easy side.

 

Mechanically Melee has zero. .and I mean zero point to it in this game.. and that makes me really sad.

 

As for the "if theres a check to get out of melee than I should be able to shoot a guy getting into melee" it's called game balance, if the guy has to bumrush to get to you, has to face harder checks to hit you and will typically do less damage than your gun with his melee weapon.. than toss the  guy a frickin bone

Edited by winters_night

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The whole concept of balance is a fairy tale.  It's smacks of MMO where a company with paying customers doesn't want to have a whole class or classes of customers drop a game because it's clearly weighted to one or other classes.  This is a RPG, if someone can't just role play the melee/hand to hand guy and enjoy it regardless of their success weighed against someone else at the table then, RPGs probably aren't' their thing.

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