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Joeker

Should there be a Desoleum sourcebook?

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Unlike the original Dark Heresy, the new edition takes place in a much smaller section of space with Desoleum being at its center. Should there be a Desoleum sourcebook and what would you want in it. 

 

I'm running adventures in the hive and it would be great to have an idea of who's who and all the zones and locations. Hives are just generally mentioned in the game and even if it wasn't exactly about Desoleum it would be nice just to have something detailing hives better. I'm tired of telling my players generally the same thing every time they are in a hive. 

Edited by Joeker

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Naaaa i dont think it should be nedeed, just, what i think it should be a good help is a npc creator with a guide to determine their encounter rating, although i dont find it mandatory it would be of help

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Personally I'd be against it because the more canon details you have about a place the harder it is for a DM to be flexible. Desoleum has a nice baseline with some unique twists that you can build stories off of. It remains flexible and will be different for different games because it's open ended.

 

That's a plus in my book.

Edited by Flail-Bot

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Personally I'd be against it because the more canon details you have about a place the harder it is for a DM to be flexible. Desoleum has a nice baseline with some unique twists that you can build stories off of. It remains flexible and will be different for different games because it's open ended.

 

That's a plus in my book.

 

Agreed.  I prefer settings that give you a good solid framework but leave plenty of blank spaces for GM's to fill in themselves. 

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Personally I'd be against it because the more canon details you have about a place the harder it is for a DM to be flexible. Desoleum has a nice baseline with some unique twists that you can build stories off of. It remains flexible and will be different for different games because it's open ended.

 

That's a plus in my book.

 

Agreed.  I prefer settings that give you a good solid framework but leave plenty of blank spaces for GM's to fill in themselves. 

 

I was going to disagree with this, since I find detailing settings to be the most time-consuming aspect of GMing WH40KRP. Any time savings in that regard should be a good thing; after all, if you don't like some setting detail, just don't use it!

 

-But then I remembered the description of the Landunder capitol hive city in Book of Judgement, which completely ignores the cool description of the world from the DH1 rulebook (a mostly liquid world with a solid floating crust, with cities hanging like stalactites beneath the crust, thrusting down into the liquid) and presents a standard 'ground up' hive with a 'spire' and an 'underhive' and no unique character whatsoever... I hate to think how many PC visits to that potentially fascinating world have been 'dumbed down' by some ill-conceived supplemental material.

 

So, yeah, bad info can be worse than minimal info...

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Desoleum is poorly described overall and frankly one of the my biggest problems with Askellon.

 

Oaths :

 

Desoleum has an 'oath system', but the oath format and oath-cogs are never properly described.  They just seem like someones poor steampunk insertion.  Show me an example of an oath.  Can the players make oaths ? What happens if the players break oaths ?  These are all important ideas that are never properly covered.  The players just use scrip when they buy things even when they are natives.  Desoleum native also just seems pointless.

 

Government :

 

We know it is run by 'The Lady'.  A sinister blank slate dictator who is caught up in the oath systems as much as its mistress.

 

Military : 

Sanctionaries,  Involute Cadre, and Oathsworn grenadiers.  

 

 

The place isn't very well fleshed out.  Desolation of the Dead and Forgotten Gods added a little bit to it.  What it really needs though is proper description.  When I first read about it the place sounded like Numenera with the remains of forgotten wars everywhere and a crazy human hive eating itself.  As it stands the place seems pointless.    

Edited by fog1234

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I see what those people are saying who are against the book, "No information means I can put whatever I want into it" (except I do this enough as a DM already, and by that standard why have any source material at all. The reason I play DH is the reams of source material from 40k.).

Eberon's City of Sharn source book, which gave me more plot hooks and just enough details to flesh out a city and make it a great place for adventures to happen in, is more what I want. Half my groups adventures were based in Sharn.  Plus nothing fires a gamers imagination like a map. 

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for Oaths, it's detailed in Forgotten Gods, PCs can give their oathbound word, so +10 to Willpower Tests involved with fulfilling that oath, 1d5 Insanity if you break it, replaces the normal hive world bonus

 

The idea that a player can make an oath the breaking of which drives them insane is detailed in FG.  It isn't very functional unless you are playing a psyker.  My concern with oaths is more about the format,  I want people 'trapped' by oaths.  As it stands the current description makes it a little silly and potentially game breaking for a psyker.

Edited by fog1234

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Side-question regarding Desoleum:  does the oath-cog system encompass the entire planet or just Hive Primus?  

 

Most references seem to mention only "the hive"; but there's also mention of Lady Desoleum's cog "encompassing the entirety of oaths throughout the hive and across the planet".  

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@ Vorzakk, I've been using the Oath-cog as an Askellon sector reputation/money recorder for my players. I'm not sure about anyone else. 

Edited by Joeker

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I run exclusively online, so some of my perspective might skewed.  Large area maps would be nice.  I'd also like battlemaps, but FF seems to have gone right away from those despite creating a system that almost depends on them.  What I would also like is a proper run down of 'the powers that be' with some named characters.  Oath-captain Nils in Desolation and FG is a good example of this, but it would nice to have some well fleshed out protagonists and antagonists for the group.  Then there should be a pre-gen adventure.  Like Dark Pursuits.  

 

I've already suggested that Oath-cogs and oaths in general need a huge update to make Desoleum unique and interesting.  They are a great topic and should not be sidelined. I love the idea of my players having to decide the value of breaking an oath.  I see everyone in Desoleum trapped by these oaths.  I love the idea of people going to an abandoned sector and standing in front of a machine for five hours a day because their grandfather made an oath that all his male decedents would work in said factory for five years.  Oaths should be insane and deadly serious at the same time.

 

Either way, I think what we'll see next is 'Enemies Without', which I don't have much interest in.   

Edited by fog1234

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I think other worlds need more details before Desoleum gets any more. In the main rule book it already gets about 10 pages of info while every other world combined gets 16 and that's not even counting the info in the adventure.

I would love to get a book with more details about the sector but would hope that it was focused on other planets, like Juno perhaps since it is the sector capital, so that campaigns can move around the sector a bit without GMs having to make up nearly every detail. Some of the added planetary info in Enemies Within helped but more is better.

Desoleum is poorly described overall and frankly one of the my biggest problems with Askellon.

 

Oaths :

 

Desoleum has an 'oath system', but the oath format and oath-cogs are never properly described.  They just seem like someones poor steampunk insertion.  Show me an example of an oath.  Can the players make oaths ? What happens if the players break oaths ?  These are all important ideas that are never properly covered.  The players just use scrip when they buy things even when they are natives.  Desoleum native also just seems pointless.

 

Government :

 

We know it is run by 'The Lady'.  A sinister blank slate dictator who is caught up in the oath systems as much as its mistress.

 

Military : 

Sanctionaries,  Involute Cadre, and Oathsworn grenadiers.  

 

 

The place isn't very well fleshed out.  Desolation of the Dead and Forgotten Gods added a little bit to it.  What it really needs though is proper description.  When I first read about it the place sounded like Numenera with the remains of forgotten wars everywhere and a crazy human hive eating itself.  As it stands the place seems pointless.    

I agree the oaths and oath cogs could use a better description. For such an important part of the planets personality it seems strange that oaths don't even get a sub headed section of their own. They do give some slight examples of oaths stating things like a workers duties, work quota and how long they are expected to live are part of their oath to their supervisor. Presumably what compensation is provided to the worker for their time is also part of the oath between them. In large part they seem to be very complicated social and economic contracts that cover everything from work responsibilities, loyalty and even expected behavior. Since its in a very rigid feudal type system these contracts tend to always heavily favor those higher up in the chain. They tend to have severe legal and social consequences for their violation.

 

Most player characters would not be able to make an oath because most characters would not have an oath cog or be bound to such local customs (if outsiders could make official oaths there would be no need at all for scrip and there would be no such thing as oathless characters). No characters from an adeptus would be bound by these local customs nor would any offworlder and most inquisitors would not want their acolytes having oaths they prioritize over their service to the inquisition. Character's perhaps could have forged oath cogs or ones from their old life for undercover work and in these cases they could make oaths although whether they intend to follow through should be questionable. The point of oaths is generally economic so they would make them as part of an exchange for goods, services and favors.

 

While planetary leaders often get names I think they rarely get much other description unless they are specifically tied to an adventure. They are more useful as potential plot hooks if kept pretty vague. We do know more about the planetary government than just her though. We know that it is largely run by the trade houses who elect one of their own as governor and that hive primus rules the planet because of its economic strength which the other hives resent.

We also have a great deal of info on Desoleum gangs and several notable locations which is way more detail than many worlds have received

From your posts it sounds like you really want some more adventure books.

 

for Oaths, it's detailed in Forgotten Gods, PCs can give their oathbound word, so +10 to Willpower Tests involved with fulfilling that oath, 1d5 Insanity if you break it, replaces the normal hive world bonus

 

The idea that a player can make an oath the breaking of which drives them insane is detailed in FG.  It isn't very functional unless you are playing a psyker.  My concern with oaths is more about the format,  I want people 'trapped' by oaths.  As it stands the current description makes it a little silly and potentially game breaking for a psyker.

 

I would argue this homeworld bonus doesn't even represent a real oath made with an oath cog (if it were it would only work on Desoleum and would probably involve influence instead of willpower) but merely the holdover respect for the idea of oaths and keeping ones word coming from the character's upbringing within the strict oath system.

 

@ Vorzakk, I've been using the Oath-cog as an Askellon sector reputation/money recorder for my players. I'm not sure about anyone else. 

That seems a very odd choice considering the Oath system is not universal to the entire sector. It is only the economic and social structure of Desoleum itself. Most characters should never even have an oath cog for multiple reasons.

 

Side-question regarding Desoleum:  does the oath-cog system encompass the entire planet or just Hive Primus?  

 

Most references seem to mention only "the hive"; but there's also mention of Lady Desoleum's cog "encompassing the entirety of oaths throughout the hive and across the planet".  

Not sure. Considering how different things were in various parts of Scintilla (like Gunmetal city) I could see it as something specific to Hive Primus. The Consortium does seem to be specific to Primus and they are at the heart of the oath system so it is plausible. Even if the other hives don't specifically use the oath system they would still be tied to Lady Desoleum's oath cog since hive primus is the economic center of the planet and would probably be viewed as more traditional contracts on their end of the deal.

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i'm not really against a detailed book about the desoleum, but i think i will be better if first comes a book, that can help you creating npc, cities and things like that.

Edited by jack_px

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I think other worlds need more details before Desoleum gets any more. In the main rule book it already gets about 10 pages of info while every other world combined gets 16 and that's not even counting the info in the adventure.

I would love to get a book with more details about the sector but would hope that it was focused on other planets, like Juno perhaps since it is the sector capital, so that campaigns can move around the sector a bit without GMs having to make up nearly every detail. Some of the added planetary info in Enemies Within helped but more is better.

Desoleum is poorly described overall and frankly one of the my biggest problems with Askellon.

 

Oaths :

 

Desoleum has an 'oath system', but the oath format and oath-cogs are never properly described.  They just seem like someones poor steampunk insertion.  Show me an example of an oath.  Can the players make oaths ? What happens if the players break oaths ?  These are all important ideas that are never properly covered.  The players just use scrip when they buy things even when they are natives.  Desoleum native also just seems pointless.

 

Government :

 

We know it is run by 'The Lady'.  A sinister blank slate dictator who is caught up in the oath systems as much as its mistress.

 

Military : 

Sanctionaries,  Involute Cadre, and Oathsworn grenadiers.  

 

 

The place isn't very well fleshed out.  Desolation of the Dead and Forgotten Gods added a little bit to it.  What it really needs though is proper description.  When I first read about it the place sounded like Numenera with the remains of forgotten wars everywhere and a crazy human hive eating itself.  As it stands the place seems pointless.    

I agree the oaths and oath cogs could use a better description. For such an important part of the planets personality it seems strange that oaths don't even get a sub headed section of their own. They do give some slight examples of oaths stating things like a workers duties, work quota and how long they are expected to live are part of their oath to their supervisor. Presumably what compensation is provided to the worker for their time is also part of the oath between them. In large part they seem to be very complicated social and economic contracts that cover everything from work responsibilities, loyalty and even expected behavior. Since its in a very rigid feudal type system these contracts tend to always heavily favor those higher up in the chain. They tend to have severe legal and social consequences for their violation.

 

Most player characters would not be able to make an oath because most characters would not have an oath cog or be bound to such local customs (if outsiders could make official oaths there would be no need at all for scrip and there would be no such thing as oathless characters). No characters from an adeptus would be bound by these local customs nor would any offworlder and most inquisitors would not want their acolytes having oaths they prioritize over their service to the inquisition. Character's perhaps could have forged oath cogs or ones from their old life for undercover work and in these cases they could make oaths although whether they intend to follow through should be questionable. The point of oaths is generally economic so they would make them as part of an exchange for goods, services and favors.

 

While planetary leaders often get names I think they rarely get much other description unless they are specifically tied to an adventure. They are more useful as potential plot hooks if kept pretty vague. We do know more about the planetary government than just her though. We know that it is largely run by the trade houses who elect one of their own as governor and that hive primus rules the planet because of its economic strength which the other hives resent.

We also have a great deal of info on Desoleum gangs and several notable locations which is way more detail than many worlds have received

From your posts it sounds like you really want some more adventure books.

 

for Oaths, it's detailed in Forgotten Gods, PCs can give their oathbound word, so +10 to Willpower Tests involved with fulfilling that oath, 1d5 Insanity if you break it, replaces the normal hive world bonus

 

The idea that a player can make an oath the breaking of which drives them insane is detailed in FG.  It isn't very functional unless you are playing a psyker.  My concern with oaths is more about the format,  I want people 'trapped' by oaths.  As it stands the current description makes it a little silly and potentially game breaking for a psyker.

 

I would argue this homeworld bonus doesn't even represent a real oath made with an oath cog (if it were it would only work on Desoleum and would probably involve influence instead of willpower) but merely the holdover respect for the idea of oaths and keeping ones word coming from the character's upbringing within the strict oath system.

 

@ Vorzakk, I've been using the Oath-cog as an Askellon sector reputation/money recorder for my players. I'm not sure about anyone else. 

That seems a very odd choice considering the Oath system is not universal to the entire sector. It is only the economic and social structure of Desoleum itself. Most characters should never even have an oath cog for multiple reasons.

 

Side-question regarding Desoleum:  does the oath-cog system encompass the entire planet or just Hive Primus?  

 

Most references seem to mention only "the hive"; but there's also mention of Lady Desoleum's cog "encompassing the entirety of oaths throughout the hive and across the planet".  

Not sure. Considering how different things were in various parts of Scintilla (like Gunmetal city) I could see it as something specific to Hive Primus. The Consortium does seem to be specific to Primus and they are at the heart of the oath system so it is plausible. Even if the other hives don't specifically use the oath system they would still be tied to Lady Desoleum's oath cog since hive primus is the economic center of the planet and would probably be viewed as more traditional contracts on their end of the deal.

I'm not a huge fan of requisition system, but I'm trying to make it work for me. Since there is no money that transfers planet to planet I use the oath cog as a sector wide system. It didn't make sense to me that I can buy something on one planet because my reputation went up on another planet. So I figure the oath cog holds all the oaths that get made to you on other planets too. "I owe Beombo ten tons of corn, signed Viceroy of Novabella" oath traded for a bolter on Desoleum. 

Edited by Joeker

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