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commoner

A Comment on the criticisms that are all over this board:

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As I read over a number of threads, there was a comment that has been nagging me and I feel like I should say, I truly don't want anyone's unconditional support and love for the game. However, I keep wondering why the "haters" want unconditional hatred and resentment against the game. It just seems to me, even in normal discussions, as soon as someone points out something positive, someone's jumping down their throats about how much this game sucks.  Honestly, I've read a number of the posts and I have yet to find someone who loves every aspect of 3e as definitively as the people who hate, resent, whatever it's very existence.  Sure there are the gray people on all sides, so I'm not pointing fingers or naming names.   

Honestly, I do have some concerns and criticisms I came to this forum to engage in during my free-time, but I feel it would be foolish to post them because the haters take every negative criticism and brandish it like a torch to burn down every good comment that comes along. And I, in no way, want to further the divide here between the burners and lovers.  All this seems to do is provoke someone who likes 3e to jump down their throat and the mess begins again and again. We can all play innocent, but this is what's actually happening if we all just put down the keyboards and take a look at what's really going on. People are being idiots on all sides.

I am sorry to see 2e go as much as the next person. I played 1e when I was eleven years old and have fond memories of it. Thing is, I plan on going back to play it even if I own 3e. I own so many of the books and enjoy the game a lot. I don't see why getting so angry about 3e is really worth it. 2e didn't go anywhere, you still have it, you can still play it. 3e is just a different game, set in the same genre. It's like saying Mordheim is horrible because it isn't Fantasy Battle and they did away with the fantasy rules for it, thereby they've ruined fantasy battle because Mordheim now exists. They're just two different ways of accessing the same world.

The comparison is extremely fair because Mordheim isn't supported by GW anymore, and hasn't been for many, many years, right before a rules revamp was supposed to happen. Mordheim still exists, you can even download the rulebook for free. But it's real strength lies in the players who love and continue to play it (my area included). If you don't believe me, search the net. You will find dozens of sites dedicated to the game with tons of home-brews, optional rules, etc. So if you really love 2e, keep supporting 2e in the way you can, play it, enjoy it. But don't think for one second you have to rule out 3e...it's just a different way of playing the same genre. Why don't you try that on instead of just ripping 3e to shreds.

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Great post...

And I also love Mordheim... I usually don't like miniature wargames (I prefer tactical hexagon wargames), but Mordheim was ans still is such a jewel... Actually, I think it was Mordheim that made me such a fan of the Warhammer universe...

Time for a Mordheim 2nd edition maybe? babeo.gif

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I have nearly stopped posting on this forum because you cannot discuss any aspect of the new game without being attacked by the WFRPv3 fanboys. If Jay Little were to start banning people this forum would be as bad as the Black Industries forum became.

 

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Your analogy is a little flawed - Mordheim was a separate game that used many of the same rules as WFB, but I think people would have had a fit if it had been branded as the next edition of WFB

And that basically sums up why people have had such an extreme reaction.

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You know, that's a really good point. Maybe they should have called it 'Warhammer Adventures' or something and made it a seperate game. That would have left the door open if they still wanted to publish 2nd edition material down the line.

The only real problem I've found with v3 is they way they handled miniatuers. I have 10s of thousands of minis and 1000s of peices of terrain (my game room is 30 years old and nearly a 800 square feet). I used to build tables for nearly every game. City streets, forrest clearings, damp caverns, all of our games were visual. That will be a little difficult to do with the stylized distance and movement rules. But, we're already working on that :)

Our current plan is to use measuring sticks. Not rulers, but pointers we've made from antennas. Basically I would set the range by extending antenna to whatever I feel is the appropriate range for the table I build, then the length would represent a 'range band'. It's just a concept right now. I need to get the rules in my hand, so I'm sure I understand, before I can truely figure out how to reintegrate my mini collection.

 

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The criticism of WFRP3 is all about what kind of game you prefeer:

If you like to play a game that focus on a dark and low fantasy background with the best rpg campaign ever produced (apart from the Mountain of madness for Call of Cthulhu) you should focus on WFRP 1

If you like to play a game with a better magic system then WFRP 1 and a strong focus on religion (Tome of Salvation) and a quite good campaign like TTT, then WFRP 2 is your setting.

And if you like a hack and slay version of  Dungeons & Dragons that focus on a boring rpg system that  has more to do with boardgames than rpg´s then WFRP 3 is your game.

Herr Teugen

 

 

.

 

I

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Nice to know you have actually playtested the game and speak for all gamers viewpoints.

 

Point 1 to 3 is equally in both warhammer 1 - 2 and 3 from a personal standpoint... well not 3 as the game is not released yet and played by the masses.

 

Why do people post "absolute facts" about theoretic and personal conclusions without practical experience?

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You are right that I never playtested WFRP3. But  I´ve been playing WFRP since 1988 and the more I read about WFRP3 the moore critical I became.  I could bee wrong and I hope so, but I´m not interested in complex game designs. What I want is a new great campaign from FFG that  focus not on combat but on roleplay, investigations and social interactions (The Power Behind The Throne is the best example of what I want). If FFG could deliver that I would be a great supporter of WFRP3 but unfortunal I doubt that kind of campaign will be produced by FFG.

 

Herr Teugen

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nico said:

The criticism of WFRP3 is all about what kind of game you prefeer:

If you like to play a game that focus on a dark and low fantasy background with the best rpg campaign ever produced (apart from the Mountain of madness for Call of Cthulhu) you should focus on WFRP 1

If you like to play a game with a better magic system then WFRP 1 and a strong focus on religion (Tome of Salvation) and a quite good campaign like TTT, then WFRP 2 is your setting.

And if you like a hack and slay version of  Dungeons & Dragons that focus on a boring rpg system that  has more to do with boardgames than rpg´s then WFRP 3 is your game.

Herr Teugen

Well, I'm glad to get a well informed, unbiased view point in here finally.
Seriously. 
Your opinion is no longer relevant.  Your post basically declares that you've made a decision about a game you haven't yet played and the people who MIGHT like said game.  If you're trolling you need to work on your skills,  because this stuff isn't even raising hackles anymore. 
If you're truly so upset about it, I sincerely envy you since you have the time and energy to post to forums about a game the doesn't interest you.  If I posted on every forum that I didn't care about I'd be here till doomsday.

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 Commoner I will answer you the best that I can. The reason 2nd edition players are upset is because they feel that it is not dead. There is more to be made, dwarf, elf, lizardman, etc books. Warhammer 2nd edition is very different from the 3rd edition. 2nd edition players just want answers. They need to know why FFG is breaking up with 2nd edition and moving on to the hotter 3rd edition. They need closer and honesty that is all. 

Instead of keeping 2nd edition alive for what ever reason FFG has made it very clear that it has to be replaced. We do not know why. Was 2nd edition not selling well? Has this design been in draft years before for a Decent RPG and now they are just using Warhammer license for the name? Maybe they just felt that it wasn't their job to risk messing up 2nd edition? We don't know. 

And this is causing the problems people are having. 2nd seemed perfect for them just as 3.5 seemed perfect for DnD players. Would explaining the reasons for the drastic system changes help? I think that would depend on the answers. 

In my opinion, the articles Jay is writing (at least I think it's him) he should be using the opening of each to explain the change and why he did it.

That is just my two cents. 

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commoner said:

Mordheim still exists, you can even download the rulebook for free. But it's real strength lies in the players who love and continue to play it ...

Exactly, I think that a lot of the worries of the old 2nd ed crowd would dissappear if the pdfs for downlad become free as soon as 3rd ed is released. 

A sound and good discussion is good as long as it is not a flame war, people should be allowed to voice their oppinion. The criticism also brings explanations/clarifications on how the game works out into the open. I see some of the 3rd ed stuff as good and some as over engineered, and I need to see some video footage on how it works before I really can make my mind up...

We should see this as either you're in the 3rd ed camp or 2nd ed camp, it's just two different styles of game play.

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video gran_risa.gif

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Ok, first of all, I'm drunk (like 5 beers and half bottle of vodka), so if You are some kind of purist,, or take something very seriously DO NOT READ FURTHER, as it can be a bit HARSH (as always, when I post while being drunk).
Second, IT IS A COMMENT ON CRITICISM ALL OVER THIS BOARD, nothing more about it.

If You don't like the changes 3-rd ed brings to us, DO NOT USE IT, DO NOT BUY IT, DO NOT PLAY IT, GO TO ANOTHER FORUM.

RPG is what You made of it, that much, and only that.
If You can not make anything of use of something You are given, then what kind of GM/player are You? Seriously?
I personally think, that a great RPG can be made of lying rocks. I made some scenario when my players acted as wolves (no special skills, no special attacks, no speaking, just ordinary run, before hunter gets you) not using any predesigned mechanics, and they bring it back to this day, as one of the best scenarios they have played (not that I make some great scenarios, they just liked it, and had a lot of fun, same as me).

If You do not like the rules DO NOT USE IT.
If You do not like the rules HOUSE RULE IT.
If You do not like the rules FORGET ABOUT THEM.

It's in Your powet as a GM, it is Your power as a player, to change the game to anything You like.
NO RULES CAN DRAW YOU BACK FROM ROLEPLAYING.
NO RULES CAN TELL YOU HOW YOU SHOULD PLAY.
The only thing that really matter in RPG is SETTING, and WORLD, and FEEL, and HOW YOU PLAY IT. And You can make all that by YOURSELF.

I'm NOT a big fan of changes, I was sceptical at the beginning too, but FACE THE TRUTH, 2-nd ed IS DEAD, DEAD!! And 1-st ed is even more.
You can't do anything about it. 3-rd ed is weeks before release. There is absolutely NO POINT in whining any more at this point, as it will CHANGE NOTHING.

So if You do not like of what 3-rd ed gives to You, DO NOT USE IT.
If You do not like all the bits and ads DO NOT USE IT.
If You do not like the changes DO NOT USE IT.
if You do not like the setting GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

But PLEASE, STOP trying to convince the whole world that this 3-rd ed is something unplayable.
Try it, house rule it, change it, and then, and only then say it is a fail.
Then and only then, say it is abomination.
Then and only then, say it is bad.

And until then I'm FOND of all the whiners and doomsayers, and naysayers (yeah, that includes me, when You look a few weeks back, so I'm fond of mysef too in a way).
TRY IT FIRST, WHINE ABOUT IT LATER.

Yes, they change it. Yes it is different. BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT??

If You consider Yourself someon that FFG is not pointing at with their 3-rd ed Warhammer, then WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE??

PS: I'm not pointing this to any specific person. it is a COMMENT on the criticism all over this board.
PS2: NO, I'm not a big fan of changes, I just understand, that whatever I do, will not change the current FACTS. So I'm in position -> buy it, try it, then whine about. 
PS3: Sorry, if You feel offended by the above, but I had to.

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I have nearly stopped posting on this forum because you cannot discuss any aspect of the new game without being attacked by the WFRPv3 fanboys.

Again with the "fanboys" comments. It does not mean what you think it means, obviously, since you keep using it. I don't see people here obsessed with 3e to the point of attacking someone just because they don't like it with no other reason. In fact, I've seen more of the opposite, where people are bashing 3e (and those that think they'll like 3e), just because those people like 3e (or it isn't 2e).

If you like to play a game that focus on a dark and low fantasy background with the best rpg campaign ever produced (apart from the Mountain of madness for Call of Cthulhu) you should focus on WFRP 1

If you like to play a game with a better magic system then WFRP 1 and a strong focus on religion (Tome of Salvation) and a quite good campaign like TTT, then WFRP 2 is your setting.

And if you like a hack and slay version of Dungeons & Dragons that focus on a boring rpg system that has more to do with boardgames than rpg´s then WFRP 3 is your game...What I want is a new great campaign from FFG that focus not on combat but on roleplay, investigations and social interactions (The Power Behind The Throne is the best example of what I want).

This is complete opinion, however. I hope no one mistakes this for anything else.  I found 2e to be just as gritty as 1e, but with a lot of the buggy rules fixed (like magic). I expect 3e to be similar.  It's how you as the GM run it, and how the players play it. You don't know that 3e is purely a boring hack and slash dungeon-crawl that is anything similar to D&D.  In fact, a lot of the designer diaries have mentioned things like story events, story arcs, and trying to remove the tedious mechanics so that the GM and players can focus on the story. None of that sounds like hack and slash dungeon crawling to me. So, baseless statements, like what you said here, really don't reflect properly the condition of the game itself. There very well might be a good campaign with lots of social interaction. We have no idea yet, because the game itself has to be released before any campaigns/adventures. So, again, there is nothing to indicate that 3e won't have a lot of social interactions and adventures (or at least as many as v2).

@darkkami

Well written! I can certainly understand everything that you said, and there is some validation to that. However, I think people need to be more open-minded. You can be upset that 2e is no longer being produced, and even how you were informed. Quite reasonable. That has absolutely no bearing, though, on whether 3e is a good game; which is what a lot of pro-2e/anti-3e have been saying on these boards. Regardless of what the diaries say, or things that pro-3e people have pointed out, many people aren't allowing for the fact that 3e could be a good game...just because it isn't 2e (or because 2e isn't going to still be produced). You *can* be upset that 2e isn't being produced any more, yet still agree that there are things about 3e that are good, or that 3e could be a good game. Really, you can. One does not prevent the other. (note: I wasn't saying "you" and meaning you specifically. "You" was referring to generic anti-3e people in general).

Regarding Sunatet's post:

Well, he did say he was drunk. (LOL). A bit rough, but I did particularly think this should be pointed out:
Try it, house rule it, change it, and then, and only then say it is a fail.
Then and only then, say it is abomination.
Then and only then, say it is bad.

I think that is a very good point to keep in mind. You can dislike some things from diaries, or like some things. You won't really know anything, though, until you actually play it. As an optimist, I think 'innocent until proven guilty', and (generally) that things will work/be good until I try them and they aren't. I also understand that it is generally only my opinion, and that people have different likes and dislikes. All I can do, is try to open their minds to different ideas/thoughts and hope they can see something in a different light. I also hope that I can keep my own mind open to different opinions and responses from others with a different viewpoint.


 

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Sunatet said:

So if You do not like of what 3-rd ed gives to You, DO NOT USE IT.
If You do not like all the bits and ads DO NOT USE IT.
If You do not like the changes DO NOT USE IT.
if You do not like the setting GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

But PLEASE, STOP trying to convince the whole world that this 3-rd ed is something unplayable.
Try it, house rule it, change it, and then, and only then say it is a fail.
Then and only then, say it is abomination.
Then and only then, say it is bad.

And until then I'm FOND of all the whiners and doomsayers, and naysayers (yeah, that includes me, when You look a few weeks back, so I'm fond of mysef too in a way).

Good points here, this is what it's all about, as a GM we have the power to give the players a good experience if something i to over designed. It's all about imagination and creativity..

Of course we don't want to redesign all the rules, that would make it a useless system, be we really don't know yet.

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video gran_risa.gif

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Correction on my last phrase - sorry:

But we really don't know yet...

And lick up yer insanity points! partido_risa.gif

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video gran_risa.gif

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nico said:

The criticism of WFRP3 is all about what kind of game you prefeer:

If you like to play a game that focus on a dark and low fantasy background with the best rpg campaign ever produced (apart from the Mountain of madness for Call of Cthulhu) you should focus on WFRP 1

If you like to play a game with a better magic system then WFRP 1 and a strong focus on religion (Tome of Salvation) and a quite good campaign like TTT, then WFRP 2 is your setting.

And if you like a hack and slay version of  Dungeons & Dragons that focus on a boring rpg system that  has more to do with boardgames than rpg´s then WFRP 3 is your game.

Herr Teugen

I have to agree. I admit that I haven't played WFRP 3E but I have the Core Rules Boxed Set and I have to say that I won't be running a game of WFRP 3E in the foreseeable future

I started with WFRP 1E back in the late-80s and loved it. My former players still talk about their various exploits when we (now infrequently) meet up.

When WFRP 2E came out, I embraced it, liking what they'd done. It was like they'd taken everything we'd kind of added and taken away over the previous nineteen years. I wasn't keen on the timeline advancement and knew nothing of the Storm of Chaos WFB event but figured that it didn't matter because I would simply alter The Enemy Within accordingly (which I still haven't had chance to run for my current group).

And now, within five years of WFRP 2E coming out, we have WFRP 3E where Fantasy Flight decided to fix what wasn't broken, putting their stamp on one of the best roleplaying games in the history of roleplaying games. WFRP 3E smacks of trying to make another D&D 4th Edition. It's not all bad. For example, I rather like the initiative system - not the way initiative is intially determined but the fact that just because Player A rolled the highest initiative, it doesn't mean they have to go first - that's a group decision. I also like the Fluff but then I always like the WFRP Fluff. And I like the adventures I've read - again, the Fluff, not the Crunch though.

What I'm not so keen on are the cards: cards seem to be the thing to have at the moment and, although I've found myself compelled to produce cards for games I've run in the past, they weren't really needed. I'm also not keen on the dice or the system based around them: it seems more complicated. What's wrong with rolling a die or two to determine whether or not you are successful? And the amount of space each player needs to accommodate all the cards and stuff kind of puts me off as well.

So as I said, I won't be running a game of WFRP 3E in the foreseeable future but stuff may get 'borrowed' for a previous edition.

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I would advice you not to try it really, because my experience is that when you try something with negative expectations, you'll work to have it live up to those expectations.

I will though say, that those who have played D&D 4th edition, say they're very different systems.

I allways felt it was 2nd edition that was completely unnecesary, the changes were to few/minor to warrant a new edition, and Storm of Chaos was horrible. Of all my old 2nd edition stuff, I only ever pick up Sigmars Heir and read it, the rest is garbage in my oppinion. Most of the 1st edition stuff is in frequent use, for inspiration and/or pictures.

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This is an interesting thread because, as someone who is pretty new to this forum, I haven't found that there's overwhelming negativity towards 3rd Ed at all.  Aside from the stacks of errata and FFGs immovability to provide us replacement parts.

Now, RPGNET has a lot of negativity towards 3rd Ed, but here I've found it pretty positive.  After all, why waste your time posting on a forum for a game you don't like?  You won't catch me on a D&D 4th Ed board for that very reason...

As aside, people don't like change.  Especially when that change is at the expense of something they love.  I recently heard the new Superman movie (Superman being my all time favourite superhero) wil not use the John Williams Superman fanfare.  I was (and still am) appalled by this - but does it mean the movie and the new score won't be worth my time?  Not necessarily...

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Sausageman said:

 

This is an interesting thread because, as someone who is pretty new to this forum, I haven't found that there's overwhelming negativity towards 3rd Ed at all.  Aside from the stacks of errata and FFGs immovability to provide us replacement parts.

 

 

Yeah, the thread was revived from October 2009, when the game had just come out and the atmosphere here was a lot different.

 

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This is a case of thread necromancy, I'm afraid. Back in 2009 when WFRP3 was brand new there was a lot of controversy that has since died down. These forums have now mainly become a haven for fans of the current edition. This particular thread was originated in those turbulent times and apparently someone dug it up to add a reply :)

To throw in my 2 cents, I never played 1st edition but I enjoy both 2nd and 3rd. Both have their own strengths. I like the relative simplicity of 2nd but I'll admit that in that edition the combat was definitely less exciting. The 3rd edition, to me, is more exciting but it can be confusing and overwhelming to new players and GMs. It's so different and so much to take in at once it can be scary, but if you go for it, there is a huge amount of potential and great fun to be had.

I'm currently trying to start up a new group after having spent some time with Star Wars saga and D&D 4th and I'm really looking forward to going back to the Old World :)

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Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:


OT

Hey Ludlov, I'm still waiting for the last 3 parts of the WH Chronicles to come to itunes!!!

Are you planning on uploading them there?

 

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Hey :)

 

Thanks for asking ^^

I have to admit, iTunes has been incredibly difficult and annoying to work with to the point that the guy in charge of that (Peter, who is also the musician) decided to give up on iTunes altogether.

But you can download every episode from the blog by right-clicking the pictures but we've found out most people didn't notice that so this week there will be a clear download link to all of the episodes so you can store it on your mp3 player. ^^ I hope you enjoy it!

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