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Red Bart

Warriors, Weapon Training, and Ballistic Skill

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Perhaps it should, but it doesn't, so if you the player want to be a heavy weapon specialist, you build him like a sniper and give him a big-ass rapid-fire gun. Functionally, the build for both archetypes is about the same (with the exception of a Talent or two, here or there).

 

It's more than just one or two Talents - those abilities can have a fundamental effect on the efficiency of a character. And that is before we add Weapon Proficiency, which is technically a Talent as well.

 

But I agree that it would have been nice to have a more granular differentiation between weapon handling reflected in Ballistic Skill Tests as well. A bit like in Shadowrun, where you get a stat for each type of gun, but can optionally default to "related" characteristics.

 

Oh well, spilt milk and all.

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But I agree that it would have been nice to have a more granular differentiation between weapon handling reflected in Ballistic Skill Tests as well. A bit like in Shadowrun, where you get a stat for each type of gun, but can optionally default to "related" characteristics.

 

 

As I can see it's basic setting approach. We have basic idea that accuracy is shooter skill, not his affinity to some particular type of weapon. One-weapon masters exists, but it's not common.
I believe we had to have "Weapon master" talent though for one particular type of weapon (where "type" is, for example, "lasgun" and cover all the patterns). Something simple, reroll unlucky shots for example.

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I think Rogue Trader had a talent like that, though I'd have to re-check the books to be sure.

 

A Talent that works like the "Proven" Weapon Quality would also be nice. And if someone has both the Talent as well as a Proven weapon, they only get a +1 to the damage threshold for reasons of balancing.

 

Or perhaps the essence of BS should be moved away from the characteristic and more to a combination of Talents. For example, a character could have a basic BS of just 25, but they have a Talent for knowing how to operate Basic weapons, and another Talent for knowing how to operate Bolt weapons, and yet another Talent for mastering a specific pattern of weapon (which has the two previous ones as prerequisite). Each of these Talents gives a +10 bonus, for a total BS of 55.

 

This way you could "mix and match" and your BS would constantly change depending on what you're holding in your hands as you either don't have or "activate" various passive Weapon Group Talents.

Just an idea off the top of my head.

 

You could do the same for Weapon Skill as well, of course!

Edited by Lynata

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Or perhaps the essence of BS should be moved away from the characteristic and more to a combination of Talents. For example, a character could have a basic BS of just 25, but they have a Talent for knowing how to operate Basic weapons, and another Talent for knowing how to operate Bolt weapons, and yet another Talent for mastering a specific pattern of weapon (which has the two previous ones as prerequisite). Each of these Talents gives a +10 bonus, for a total BS of 55.

 

This way you could "mix and match" and your BS would constantly change depending on what you're holding in your hands as you either don't have or "activate" various passive Weapon Group Talents.

Just an idea off the top of my head.

 

You could do the same for Weapon Skill as well, of course!

It's possible, but I believe it's completly different from all the rules every WH40K title used before (don't sure about Necromunda). All time it was united affinity to shoot and united affinity to strike, no matter what do you use.

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Or perhaps the essence of BS should be moved away from the characteristic and more to a combination of Talents.

 

I think a more intuitive way of doing it would be to ditch the Weapon Training Talent and make each weapon group a Skill, each with its own Aptitudes. Non-proficiency would still impose the -20 penalty any untrained skill use does. This method has the advantage of using an already extant mechanic and achieves the same result, more or less.

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Then you'll need to rebalance all related things - because you'li need spent some exp to skills as well as stat, from one side; from other side, 100 xp for +10 shooting bonus is FAR better then +100 xp for +5.

Not I say it's bad, I feel BS and WS as redundant stats from the beginning (same I thought about BAB in DnD). But it really don't simple addition.

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But I agree that it would have been nice to have a more granular differentiation between weapon handling reflected in Ballistic Skill Tests as well. A bit like in Shadowrun, where you get a stat for each type of gun, but can optionally default to "related" characteristics.

You guys remember in the scrapped beta when sniper rifles had a penetration value equal to the firer's Perception bonus? That was pretty neat.

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Then you'll need to rebalance all related things - because you'li need spent some exp to skills as well as stat, from one side; from other side, 100 xp for +10 shooting bonus is FAR better then +100 xp for +5.

Not I say it's bad, I feel BS and WS as redundant stats from the beginning (same I thought about BAB in DnD). But it really don't simple addition.

 

It's actually quite brilliant ... yes, the +10 from the Skill is better, but it only works for that one gun or melee weapon. The +5 from the characteristic, however, would work on all weapons you know.

 

It's good even for the ones you have not learned. You'd still suffer the -20 penalty from not having the Skill (proficiency), but you are more versatile and get better at improvising with any type of weapon. A character who has maxed out their WS/BS would effectively be almost as good as a character who possesses the basic +0 Skill proficiency, except they have it for anything they might come across.

 

Besides, characteristics increases are useful anyways as they still add to the Test chance. At some point, you'd have to buy them to get better. Especially given that a higher Rank Skill increase will cost more XP than the 1st Rank characteristics increase.

 

I need to write this down ... :)

 

You guys remember in the scrapped beta when sniper rifles had a penetration value equal to the firer's Perception bonus? That was pretty neat.

 

Although I have to say that I'm a bit biased against weapon properties being derived from the character. It's bad enough that damage is randomised rather than being directly connected to the BS/WS roll, i.e. how good your shot/slash/thrust was.

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You guys remember in the scrapped beta when sniper rifles had a penetration value equal to the firer's Perception bonus? That was pretty neat.

 

Although I have to say that I'm a bit biased against weapon properties being derived from the character. It's bad enough that damage is randomised rather than being directly connected to the BS/WS roll, i.e. how good your shot/slash/thrust was.

 

 

An Abstraction Too Far.

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the +10 from the Skill is better, but it only works for that one gun or melee weapon. The +5 from the characteristic, however, would work on all weapons you know.

 

Additionally, the first 100xp spent on a "(Weapon Group) Skill" also only buys off the non-proficient penalty, assuming you have both Aptitudes. You won't get +10 until you're Trained (Rank 2) in that Weapon Group, which is a total of 300xp for +10 to BS with only that weapon group, as compared to 350xp for buying +10 to general BS or (under the current system) 200xp for the Weapon Training Talent to just buy off the -20 non-proficient penalty.

 

Using this proposed system will mean that generally, your effective WS/BS will be higher; it is cheaper to specialise. So long as the GM compensates for it with his NPC's, it's not a problem because the rule applies across the board without bias.

 

The only thing to note would be that the (Heavy) weapon group should not "double up" with other weapon group bonuses, I think. You should require proficiency in both Heavy and the relevant weapon group to avoid non-proficient penalties, but if you have a bonus to one or the other, only apply the highest bonus.

 

e.g. a character who is Experienced with the (Heavy) Weapon Group, only, could use any Heavy weapon at a net +0 BS; -20 non-proficient, +20 for Experienced. If he also had the (Solid Projectile) Weapon Group at Trained, he could use Heavy Stubbers and Autocannons at +20 BS (no non-proficient penalty, +20 for Experienced in Heavy), other SP-weapons at +10 (Trained) and other Heavy weapons at +0.

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Additionally, the first 100xp spent on a "(Weapon Group) Skill" also only buys off the non-proficient penalty, assuming you have both Aptitudes. You won't get +10 until you're Trained (Rank 2) in that Weapon Group

 

Although, granted, that effectively makes the first Skill purchase a +20 to BS... You buy off a penalty instead of buying a bonus, but in terms of rolling the dice, it makes no difference.

 

Still, that all sounds good to me.

 

The higher overall BS score could be a problem, but technically you'd only have to adapt the range modifiers. Point Blank becomes +10, Short Range +0, Standard -10, Long -30, Extreme -50, Maximum -70. And for WS, I'm not even convinced it would be much of a problem because now it'll be perfectly equalised with Dodge and Parry.

 

The only thing to note would be that the (Heavy) weapon group should not "double up" with other weapon group bonuses, I think. You should require proficiency in both Heavy and the relevant weapon group to avoid non-proficient penalties, but if you have a bonus to one or the other, only apply the highest bonus.

 

I'd treat all weapon groups the same: Heavy Flame, Basic Bolt, Pistol SP are all individual Skills you'd have to buy one by one if you want to operate those weapons properly.

 

However, you could allow defaulting for weapons of the same damage type. Like, someone who has the Skill "Plasma Guns" would only get a -10 penalty if they use a Plasma Pistol or Plasma Cannon, because they understand the basic principles of the weapon type and are merely unused to differences in weight/recoil/etc. The +10 and +20 Skill Ranks do not carry over, though.

Edited by Lynata

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