2 questions: What happens when it's impossible to place the last obstacle|What should I do when I encounter people measuring out multiple attacks?

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

I'm not trying to punish anyone here. I'm trying to prevent a legal game situation from turning into an illegal one. A player made a measurement that to any onlooker would appear to be legal. It is only the player's mental state at the time of the measurement that makes the measurement illegal.

So you're going determine whether the move is illegal or not based on their mental state?  How exactly is that going to work?  Jedi Mind Trick?

 

Someone who does this has pretty clearly not chosen to commit to attacking with a given ship.  That's the whole point of it.  You know very well what point they're at in the game flow, and you know what they're doing.  You don't get to force the choice on them to try and fix it - there's absolutely nothing in the rules that lets you do that, or suggests that is how it should be handled.  "Onlookers thought they knew what he intended to do" is not a valid rule standard.

If you have 5 Academy Pilots, and move all 5 of them at once and then give them all actions, your opponent isn't obligated to allow you to do any of those actions except for the last one that moved. Often when flying TIE Swarm I will ask my opponent if I am allowed to do such a thing ahead of time, or if I can move my ships in formation out of PS order just out of convenience that wouldn't bump anyway.

Same thing applies during the Combat Phase. If you measure attack ranges with 5 Academies in quick succession, you've essentially skipped your own attacks with all of them besides the last one. Firing with 5 equal PS ships should go 'measure range, fire. Measure range, fire. Measure range, fire." etc. And not just measure with all 5 and pick the optimal one to fire first with and fire off all 5 attacks. That's cheating, perhaps not intentional but still cheating.

If a person had measured range with 5 ships in quick succession, their opponent wouldn't be out of their bounds to not allow them to attack with anything except the last ship that was measured. Their opponent skipped their own attack opportunities and essentially chose not to attack with them. I don't understand why you don't agree with this other than it not being, "Fly Casual".

I'm not going to instruct my opponent to not skip their attack opportunities. If they want to skip their own attacks or forget about simultaneous fire and pick up their equal PS ship to mine before it fires, let them do that. Players are expected to play optimally and they can only perform missed triggers with the consent of their opponent.

In a casual game I'd remind players and allow them to do forgotten things. A tournament game I'm playing to win. Because winning is fun.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

You are still enforcing a supposed rule that is not outlined anywhere. The rules state the order of the round - nowhere do they state what happens if you violate that. For comparison, take performing a red maneuver while stressed. It is explicitly stated what happens. So, saying the players attacks are forfeit is not based on anything the rules state, just what you're deriving from the interaction of other rules that do not cover what you've stated as law.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

You are still enforcing a supposed rule that is not outlined anywhere. The rules state the order of the round - nowhere do they state what happens if you violate that. For comparison, take performing a red maneuver while stressed. It is explicitly stated what happens. So, saying the players attacks are forfeit is not based on anything the rules state, just what you're deriving from the interaction of other rules that do not cover what you've stated as law.

How would you actually deal with the issue?

You have a situation, by the rules of the game, that can't happen. But it has happened because of whatever the reason is, now how do you resolve a situation that the rules do not address because as far as the rules are concerned the situation is impossible?

A player has multiple ships of the same pilot skill. As far as the rules are concerned the only way for that situation to resolve is for that player to pick one of those ships, make the allowable measurements, make an attack, then repeat the process for the other ships. Instead of doing that the player measures from multiple ships before settling on one to attack from. The rules in no way allow that to happen, but it has because we aren't playing a computer game. How would you as a TO resolve a situation in which a player is acting outside of what the rules allow?

Edited October 9, 2015 by ScottieATF

[VanorDM 11,599]

How would you as a TO resolve a situation in which a player is acting outside of what the rules allow?

Myself, I'd issue a warning that the next infraction of the rules would result in a DQ, and possibly a longer ban from tournament play at that location.

That's the whole point of having a TO, to deal with issues like this that shouldn't be able to happen.

It's no different really than if someone starts to move all their ships then take actions for them... It's not legal, but short of physically restraining the other player you can't actually stop them from doing it.

So the TO has to get involved and deal with it as he or she sees fit.

The information from the illegal measurement is already out there, you can't take that back, you could declare that the other ships have skipped over their attack phase, but there is really no rule to support that decision, other than the carte blanche a TO has.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

I was initially sceptical of the last asteroid not fitting but after playing around on vassal, it's completely possible, although unlikely to occur accidentally.

 

 

The image is pretty busy but you can see that the large asteroid at the middle of each edge can't be legally placed there. The last asteroid really has to be the largest one from the new core set, as the other two large obstacles are much harder to zone out. I would guess that the last asteroid wouldn't be placed, but I'd want an official ruling on that.

9 ≠ 6

[Antigrapist 183]

9 ≠ 6

Yeah, five asteroids that are placed legally (the ones without the range bands) and then the last asteroid simultaneously placed in each of the four possible spots to show that it couldn't be placed anywhere on the map. It was faster and easier to use one picture that showed all of the possible locations rather than doing them one at a time (or at least I thought that at the time; it was pretty late).

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

9 ≠ 6

Yeah, five asteroids that are placed legally (the ones without the range bands) and then the last asteroid simultaneously placed in each of the four possible spots to show that it couldn't be placed anywhere on the map. It was faster and easier to use one picture that showed all of the possible locations rather than doing them one at a time (or at least I thought that at the time; it was pretty late).

So, an X in the center of the board prevents a 6th? Nice.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

How would you as a TO resolve a situation in which a player is acting outside of what the rules allow?

Myself, I'd issue a warning that the next infraction of the rules would result in a DQ, and possibly a longer ban from tournament play at that location.That's the whole point of having a TO, to deal with issues like this that shouldn't be able to happen.It's no different really than if someone starts to move all their ships then take actions for them... It's not legal, but short of physically restraining the other player you can't actually stop them from doing it.So the TO has to get involved and deal with it as he or she sees fit.The information from the illegal measurement is already out there, you can't take that back, you could declare that the other ships have skipped over their attack phase, but there is really no rule to support that decision, other than the carte blanche a TO has.

I dont think this is hard. Inform the player they are not allowed to measure all ships (they may not know) then have them atyack in the order they measured. The advantage gained is not all we are making it up to be in this thread and it should be assumed the player is not aware they are breaking the rules.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Darth Emphatic

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

I've had players come to games not aware that they can't stack Pilot Han's ability with Target Lock and Predator. I've seen a player do Pilot Bossk's crit to double hit conversion before the defender had even rolled defense dice. This ends up just crushing new players.

 

Assume players are cheating. They gain this advantage all (early) game(s) and then when someone stops them they get a slap on the wrist and THEN stop. If they're genuinely unaware it will punish them for not actually reading their own cards or the rules.

 

If you assume people are good, you'll end up with someone who has not even bothered to seat the templates in the front nubs of the Falcon for all of his games FINALLY get stopped when he's at the top table. Or someone who has flown two large identical core set large asteroids flying a turret list that benefits massively from large asteroids.

 

Fly casual lets players who cheat either intentionally or unintentionally get away with it.

 

 

 

You are still enforcing a supposed rule that is not outlined anywhere. The rules state the order of the round - nowhere do they state what happens if you violate that. For comparison, take performing a red maneuver while stressed. It is explicitly stated what happens. So, saying the players attacks are forfeit is not based on anything the rules state, just what you're deriving from the interaction of other rules that do not cover what you've stated as law.

 

A player that has measured with 5 ships in quick succession has not violated the order of the round. He's chosen not to attack with the first 4 of them because he's missed 4 attack opportunities. His opponent does not have to grant him those missed opportunities.

 

1.) He chose Academy Pilot #1 to activate first by placing his range ruler from it to an enemy ship.

                    1.5) [Opportunity to fire with it here]

2.) He chose Academy Pilot #2 to activate by putting the range ruler next from it to an enemy ship

                     2.5) [Opportunity to fire with it here]

3.) Etc.

 

If you skip over step 1.5 /yourself/, you've lost your opportunity to attack. Seems harsh, but maybe you shouldn't be pre-measuring.

Edited October 10, 2015 by ParaGoomba Slayer

[Sithborg 11,644]

 

 

Assume players are cheating. They gain this advantage all (early) game(s) and then when someone stops them they get a slap on the wrist and THEN stop. If they're genuinely unaware it will punish them for not actually reading their own cards or the rules.

 

If you assume people are good, you'll end up with someone who has not even bothered to seat the templates in the front nubs of the Falcon for all of his games FINALLY get stopped when he's at the top table. Or someone who has flown two large identical core set large asteroids flying a turret list that benefits massively from large asteroids.

 

Fly casual lets players who cheat either intentionally or unintentionally get away with it.

 

 

And suddenly, all the issues you claim that others have with you becomes clear. 

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

If there are no consequences to cheating/forgotten opportunities, people will continue cheating/forgetting things.

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

 

There's a big difference between ignoring repeated and obvious cheating and giving people the benefit of the doubt.  That you don't seem to understand that makes me sad

 

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

We always like to tell ourselves that there are these super-pivotal moments in games.  That if only that one maneuver had landed a millimeter closer, or that one attack roll had come up with one more hit, we would have won!  But the reality is that it's rarely that plain.  There are a hundred little things that add up to each event.There's always going to be a little slop in the movement - whether it's from loose template setting or a ship getting knocked over (OMG!  Unrecoverable game state!!  Instant forfeit!).  If you truly think a little slip in the template is enough to cheat your way to the top table... well...  let's just go with a simple "no", shall we?

 

The simple fact is that X-wing will not survive as the type of game you and Scottie seem to want.  At least not in its current incarnation.  There's too much inherent slop in movement and there are WAY too many contradictory gaps in the rules for the expected precision.  The only thing this sort of behavior does is make people think that the X-wing community is full of jerks.

[Elkerlyc 727]

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

 

 

Can I suggest the following:

 

Making a mistake once is a coincidence, making a mistake twice is conspicuous, making a mistake three times is a pattern.

 

Or; I let it slip once. Warning them.

A second warning is sterner.

A third time shall not be forgiven.

[arnoldrew 1,713]

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

If there are no consequences to cheating/forgotten opportunities, people will continue cheating/forgetting things.

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

Yes, assume that a person who is on his third game of X-wing who gets the rules wrong must be cheating. That is a good way to build the community.

[Sithborg 11,644]

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

If there are no consequences to cheating/forgotten opportunities, people will continue cheating/forgetting things.

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

 

I am not saying the rules should not be enforced, or you should not try to correct inproper play. 

 

The problem is running on the assumption that your opponent is cheating. It creates an unfriendly playing environment. Which is what the original goal of fly casual was about. You might not realize it, but you are projecting an attitude of "I don't trust you". And given your multiple, multiple complaints about how you are made to feel like an *******, it is clear where the source of it is. 

 

Enforcement of the rules can be done in a friendly, if stern, manner. It generally isn't a problem if both parties are approaching it from the point that fun only comes from winning. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by Sithborg

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

There's a big difference between ignoring repeated and obvious cheating and giving people the benefit of the doubt.  That you don't seem to understand that makes me sad

 

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

We always like to tell ourselves that there are these super-pivotal moments in games.  That if only that one maneuver had landed a millimeter closer, or that one attack roll had come up with one more hit, we would have won!  But the reality is that it's rarely that plain.  There are a hundred little things that add up to each event.There's always going to be a little slop in the movement - whether it's from loose template setting or a ship getting knocked over (OMG!  Unrecoverable game state!!  Instant forfeit!).  If you truly think a little slip in the template is enough to cheat your way to the top table... well...  let's just go with a simple "no", shall we?

 

The simple fact is that X-wing will not survive as the type of game you and Scottie seem to want.  At least not in its current incarnation.  There's too much inherent slop in movement and there are WAY too many contradictory gaps in the rules for the expected precision.  The only thing this sort of behavior does is make people think that the X-wing community is full of jerks.

 

When I say hyper sloppy maneuvering, I mean putting the template ~ a third/half way across the nub.

 

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

 

Can I suggest the following:

 

Making a mistake once is a coincidence, making a mistake twice is conspicuous, making a mistake three times is a pattern.

 

Or; I let it slip once. Warning them.

A second warning is sterner.

A third time shall not be forgiven.

  

So basically let them get away with it a bunch of times.

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

If there are no consequences to cheating/forgotten opportunities, people will continue cheating/forgetting things.

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

Yes, assume that a person who is on his third game of X-wing who gets the rules wrong must be cheating. That is a good way to build the community.

 

No, the guy misusing Pilot Bossk's ability had an opponent that was playing his third game.

 

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

If there are no consequences to cheating/forgotten opportunities, people will continue cheating/forgetting things.

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

 

I am not saying the rules should not be enforced, or you should not try to correct inproper play. 

 

The problem is running on the assumption that your opponent is cheating. It creates an unfriendly playing environment. Which is what the original goal of fly casual was about. You might not realize it, but you are projecting an attitude of "I don't trust you". And given your multiple, multiple complaints about how you are made to feel like an *******, it is clear where the source of it is. 

 

Enforcement of the rules can be done in a friendly, if stern, manner. It generally isn't a problem if both parties are approaching it from the point that fun only comes from winning.

When TO's are called on me it doesn't bother me. If someone thinks I'm cheating and I'm not then I wouldn't get angry. If someone doesn't trust me that's okay.

[Elkerlyc 727]

So basically let them get away with it a bunch of times.

 

The correct legal term would be "three strikes yer out?" or somesuch.

[arnoldrew 1,713]

 

 

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

There's a big difference between ignoring repeated and obvious cheating and giving people the benefit of the doubt.  That you don't seem to understand that makes me sad

 

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

We always like to tell ourselves that there are these super-pivotal moments in games.  That if only that one maneuver had landed a millimeter closer, or that one attack roll had come up with one more hit, we would have won!  But the reality is that it's rarely that plain.  There are a hundred little things that add up to each event.There's always going to be a little slop in the movement - whether it's from loose template setting or a ship getting knocked over (OMG!  Unrecoverable game state!!  Instant forfeit!).  If you truly think a little slip in the template is enough to cheat your way to the top table... well...  let's just go with a simple "no", shall we?

 

The simple fact is that X-wing will not survive as the type of game you and Scottie seem to want.  At least not in its current incarnation.  There's too much inherent slop in movement and there are WAY too many contradictory gaps in the rules for the expected precision.  The only thing this sort of behavior does is make people think that the X-wing community is full of jerks.

 

When I say hyper sloppy maneuvering, I mean putting the template ~ a third/half way across the nub.

 

 

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

 

Can I suggest the following:

 

Making a mistake once is a coincidence, making a mistake twice is conspicuous, making a mistake three times is a pattern.

 

Or; I let it slip once. Warning them.

A second warning is sterner.

A third time shall not be forgiven.

  

So basically let them get away with it a bunch of times.

 

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

If there are no consequences to cheating/forgotten opportunities, people will continue cheating/forgetting things.

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

Yes, assume that a person who is on his third game of X-wing who gets the rules wrong must be cheating. That is a good way to build the community.

 

No, the guy misusing Pilot Bossk's ability had an opponent that was playing his third game.

 

 

Okay.

Let people cheat then. Point out to them that they can't fly 2 identical asteroids and have them pick unique ones only to have to tell that to them again next week. Or assume someone who is using Pilot Bossk's ability regardless if it hits or not on a guy that's played his like, 3rd game isn't cheating.

If there are no consequences to cheating/forgotten opportunities, people will continue cheating/forgetting things.

That player that wouldn't even bother to properly seat his templates in the nubs, I faced him first round. I was losing hardcore to him independent of his hyper sloppy maneuvering, so I let it slide. And then he ended up at the top table and /then/ got a slap on the wrist and was forced to accurately move his ships. So because I was 'flying casual' I let a cheater get away with it.

 

I am not saying the rules should not be enforced, or you should not try to correct inproper play. 

 

The problem is running on the assumption that your opponent is cheating. It creates an unfriendly playing environment. Which is what the original goal of fly casual was about. You might not realize it, but you are projecting an attitude of "I don't trust you". And given your multiple, multiple complaints about how you are made to feel like an *******, it is clear where the source of it is. 

 

Enforcement of the rules can be done in a friendly, if stern, manner. It generally isn't a problem if both parties are approaching it from the point that fun only comes from winning.

When TO's are called on me it doesn't bother me. If someone thinks I'm cheating and I'm not then I wouldn't get angry. If someone doesn't trust me that's okay.

 

 

You're operating with the false assumption that the choices are either "let them get away with it forever" or "throw the bum out of the store." That is simply incorrect.

[Firespray-32 5,424]

What's that lovely term that gets bandied around the forums at lot?

"Do what the rules say to do, don't do what the rules don't say to do."

 

Could someone please cite the tournament rule where it says measuring range is implicitly declaring an attack? I'm guessing not, because it doesn't exist.

 

Likewise, there is no rule handling implicit barrel roll declaration or implicit anything for that matter. By the letter of the rules, if they don't declare it it's an illegal measurement.

 

 

 

The way the rules work is you declare everything before you do it. You declare which ship you are activating before you flip the dial, you declare which action you are performing before you assign the token, you declare the ship you are attempting to lock before you measure range, you declare the direction of a barrel roll or boost before you measure it. You declare the attacking ship before you measure range. You declare an ability before you measure range.

If you measure anything without declaring why, then by the letter of the rules you are technically breaking them.

 

 

 

Now, in most tournaments and casual games you don't see people verbal declaring everything they do, because they're playing with a level of friendly mutual understanding. They're not trying to trip each other up on procedure thus skip a lot of the declaration because they both feel it goes without saying, they just get on with the game. Measuring a left barrel roll is taken to mean declaring it, measuring range of a ship usually means you're attacking with it. When procedure is breached (for example measuring from a ship you're not allowed to measure from at that point) then the other player usually points out the breach, the player doesn't do it again and that's that. However, this is ettiquette, not rules text.

 

If you have a player not capable of playing with this level of mutual understanding, those who's desire to win is so great they feel the need to capitalise on quite literally anything they can think of, then this mutual understanding most of us play with completely breaks down. And when that happens, you fall back to the letter of the rules. Declare everything you do, insist your opponent does the same.

 

If you feel the need to play by the letter, then play by the letter. Don't take the mutual understandings and expedients the rest of us play with to speed up the game as rules text to be weaponized, because it's not rules text.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Blue Five

[Parravon 5,217]

I'm actually quite amused at the apparent double-standard being seen here. You've had an opponent use really sloppy template handling, but because he was soundly beating you, that didn't seem to matter until he got to the final game. But when an opponent measures from more than one ship before declaring who's going to fire, it's suddenly the most vile, heinous act of cheating ever witnessed.

 

Some players will quite innocently play with bad habits simply because that's the way they've always played it. Measuring from a bunch of ships before choosing one to shoot is a fine example of this. I've seen it many times, and each time I've asked the other player to pick one and do it one-at-a-time. I've also seen the sloppy template guy and did the same thing, asked him to do it correctly. Hassle-free and the situation was sorted. But were they both cheating? I didn't think so.

 

But then there's the guy that manipulates his damage deck by removing all the Direct Hits and replacing them with something less dangerous. Was he cheating? Hell, yes! Should he be disqualified? Hell, yes! Should he be excluded from a tournament? Yes again. That's blatant cheating and should be dealt with harshly. Were the other players blatantly cheating in order to secure a win? Not blatantly, maybe not even knowingly. Was it against the rules? Yes it was, but neither case deserves a DQ. A warning would be appropriate and fair.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

I'm not advocating for instant DQ's. I'm just advocating that if someone skips their own attack steps, that they don't have to be allowed to fire by their opponent.

 

There was a situation recently where I got too eager and declared a target (and I think I measured too) with my PS 2 ship before my PS 4 ships. My opponent graciously let me fire with my PS 4's, and if he did not I wouldn't have been mad at anyone but myself.

 

If I were to measure out 5 attacks simultaneously, I wouldn't get buttmad about my opponent not allowing me to fire with my first 4 ships because I skipped over a bunch of my own attack steps.

 

 

I'm actually quite amused at the apparent double-standard being seen here. You've had an opponent use really sloppy template handling, but because he was soundly beating you, that didn't seem to matter until he got to the final game. But when an opponent measures from more than one ship before declaring who's going to fire, it's suddenly the most vile, heinous act of cheating ever witnessed.

 

Yes, and after I've seen the folly of my 'fly casual' attitude in that situation, I regretted not stopping him.

Edited October 12, 2015 by ParaGoomba Slayer

[Parravon 5,217]

 

I'm actually quite amused at the apparent double-standard being seen here. You've had an opponent use really sloppy template handling, but because he was soundly beating you, that didn't seem to matter until he got to the final game. But when an opponent measures from more than one ship before declaring who's going to fire, it's suddenly the most vile, heinous act of cheating ever witnessed.

 

Yes, and after I've seen the folly of my 'fly casual' attitude in that situation, I regretted not stopping him.

 

The questions that would arise: Did his sloppy templates give him a shooting range advantage that wouldn't have been there without gaining those millimetres first? Was it a game-defining feature of his gameplay? Was there any game-deciding moment that could have only come about by him gaining those small increments?

 

I'm not saying it's an excuse for sloppy play. But would making him tighten up his gameplay have made a difference in the long run? To you or his future opponents? If you want to beat yourself up for playing casually, then you're being lured by the power of the Dark Side. Don't give in to it, young padawan. It's not stronger and it leads to being one of those WAAC types that everybody hates.

 

The simplest solution to the situations that you had would have been communication. Talk through the steps and don't be afraid to ask a player to play by the rules. If they think you're being an ass, then they might be cheating. But the rules are there to be followed and it's not unreasonable to expect opponents to do so.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

I believe the reason the TO got called over on the sloppy template guy after a few games at the top table was because there ended up being a close asteroid that he conveniently missed because of his shenanigans. I had my own games to pay attention to and I believe I also left after the second round or so because I can't do 4 rounds that start at 7pm when I have work the next morning and player count that Friday pushed it from 3 rounds to 4.

If I would have said something, he would have been caught earlier. It didn't matter in my games, but very good chance it mattered in the games after.

Sometimes I fly Dark Side. I played a 3 round Escalation tournament that topped out at 120 and I ended up with 4 Transdoshan Slavers against a wad of Soontir, TIE/FO's, and AC Tempests. I had initiative so after my PS 2's fired my opponent took his ships off the board without firing with them. Assuming he just forgot to fire I kept my mouth shut. After the game I told him about it and he told me he didn't know that and I felt a little bad. He also forgot to fire with his non-simultaneous fire PS 2's after I fired with mine and after giving him ample time to remember, I asked if he was good for dials and he agreed.

Other times my opponent fires with his ACD Phantom and forgets to cloak, fires with another ship, and then remembers to cloak and puts his cloak token down and I squelch my WAAC mode because I'm kind of a doormat of a person and regret it later because I could have used it to win.

Edited October 12, 2015 by ParaGoomba Slayer

[Buhallin 4,563]

Other times my opponent fires with his ACD Phantom and forgets to cloak, fires with another ship, and then remembers to cloak and puts his cloak token down and I squelch my WAAC mode because I'm kind of a doormat of a person and regret it later because I could have used it to win.

There are so many cries for therapy in this statement I don't know where to begin

[Parravon 5,217]

 

Other times my opponent fires with his ACD Phantom and forgets to cloak, fires with another ship, and then remembers to cloak and puts his cloak token down and I squelch my WAAC mode because I'm kind of a doormat of a person and regret it later because I could have used it to win.

There are so many cries for therapy in this statement I don't know where to begin

 

I see a therapist with a new Ferrari in his future.