2 questions: What happens when it's impossible to place the last obstacle|What should I do when I encounter people measuring out multiple attacks?

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

If there are enough big obstacles played, it is now possible to get into a spot where it's not possible to place the last one. Do you just play with 5 then?

 

and

 

Often when people have multiple ships in a group, usually with equivalent PS ships they'll measure out attack ranges with all of them and then fire with the optimal one first. It's my understanding that this is against the rules. Should I go full WAAC and allow them to only attack with the last one they measured with saying that they, "Measured attacks with all of the other ones and chose not to attack", or just call the TO over/tell them to stop?

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Can you post an image of 5 obstacles preventing the 6th? I don't have stuff out to play around right now and have a hard time imagining its possible.

For the second point, if it bothers you and your in a tournament, just call the TO over. That's what he/she is there for. Myself, I would first tell them that it is against the rules, then call the TO over if it happens again.

(Ok, I'm actually a very laid back kind of guy in this regard. Actually I would let it slide once or twice, then mention the rules, and then on the 4th or 5th time get the TO involved, if the game wasn't over yet. And then, once the game WAS over, reinforce the point more strongly and mention they might get an opponent sometime who isn't as non-chalant as I am. But that is because I have a deliberately lax attitude to these sorts of things.)

[Darth Emphatic 148]

Id also love to see this posted. I cant imagine this possible even if you both used the 3 largest obstacles. Maybe the requirements being used for placement are off.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Darth Emphatic

[DR4CO 6,234]

Should I go full WAAC and allow them to only attack with the last one they measured with saying that they, "Measured attacks with all of the other ones and chose not to attack", or just call the TO over/tell them to stop?

 

I would say it depends on how they're going about it. If it's an honest mistake or simply a bad habit they've picked up (which I see all the time), politely informing them of what they are doing wrong is more than enough. Sometimes you have to show them the rulebook or call the TO to confirm, and sometimes you have to pick it up a couple more times while they break the habit, but generally once you show someone they're doing something wrong they'll do the right thing.

 

If they should know better or continue to persist, then call the TO just as you would for any player who's trying to cheat in such a manner. You wouldn't let an opponent get away with openly pre-measuring at any other time; why even consider it here?

 

Also, one final point: making sure the game is played correctly is not WAAC. It's just playing the game. It's only WAAC when you demand everyone else follow the rules while skirting them yourself.

Edited October 5, 2015 by DR4CO

[EdgeOfDreams 1,711]

To get a situation where you have no place left to put an asteroid, or at least get close to it, you need to do something like have both players bring the largest asteroid from each core set plus the largest debris token. Then, place four asteroids in a square, each a bit more than range 1 from a corner of the legal asteroid placement zone. Finally, put one in the center of the board. Can you see how that would make it tough to find a spot for the remaining rock?

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

The reason I ask about the asteroid thing is that this almost happened and it wasn't even intentional. I had the last asteroid and realized that it was only possible to fit it in one moderately confined spot. Had the last one been a large obstacle and/or had the other obstacles been more optimally placed to bring about this situation, I wouldn't have been able to fit the 6th.

The measuring range thing pisses me off because often I'm caught in a dilemma where I would like to know which ships are at what ranges but can't, so I often choose to attack with a certain ship first because I'm not allowed to pre-measure. So seeing players cheat irritates me.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

That's a skill factor for the game....

[Antigrapist 183]

I was initially sceptical of the last asteroid not fitting but after playing around on vassal, it's completely possible, although unlikely to occur accidentally.

 

 

The image is pretty busy but you can see that the large asteroid at the middle of each edge can't be legally placed there. The last asteroid really has to be the largest one from the new core set, as the other two large obstacles are much harder to zone out. I would guess that the last asteroid wouldn't be placed, but I'd want an official ruling on that.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Antigrapist

[Hobojebus 11,341]

I never even knew this could be an issue mind blown.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Without FFG making some sort of ruling, if I were a TO and ran across this I'd have them reset the obstacles and place them in a way that you could fit all 6.

Also as DR4CO so wisely said. You should never, ever, ever feel bad about expecting someone to play by the rules and getting the TO involved if they won't.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

I was initially skeptical of the last asteroid not fitting but after playing around on vassal, it's completely possible, although unlikely to occur accidentally.

The image is pretty busy but you can see that the large asteroid at the middle of each edge can't be legally placed there. The last asteroid really has to be the largest one from the new core set, as the other two large obstacles are much harder to zone out. I would guess that the last asteroid wouldn't be placed, but I'd want an official ruling on that.

Well done. I was super skeptical as well, but there you have it. The odds of it happen are likely still very low, but in this event, if the last one cant be played there are two options - start over and perform the placement step again (which could end in the same result) or play without the last asteroid. I like the latter. Edited October 6, 2015 by Darth Emphatic

[Buhallin 4,563]

There's no rules coverage at all for the asteroid issue.  You'll either have to play with 5, or reset, but it'll have to be up to the TO.

 

I think people have covered the enforcement issue on measuring before firing (i.e. feel free to enforce), but I think the OP's description is very wrong.  No, you cannot measure range for an attack until you've declared a ship as the attacker.  But that's what should be enforced.  Waiting until your opponent has put a ruler next to 5 ships, and trying to say "Well, you measured from ships 1-4, so you obviously declared them as an attacker, measured, and decided not to continue with the attack" is pretty wrong.

 

At best, your opponent is measuring when they shouldn't be able to, and you can and should ask them to stop that.  But that measuring doesn't implicitly make them sacrifice their attacks.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Also, one final point: making sure the game is played correctly is not WAAC. It's just playing the game. It's only WAAC when you demand everyone else follow the rules while skirting them yourself.

 

What was suggested by the OP was WAAC though. Not saying anything about attacks being skipped as your opponent moves to the next ship he wants to measure from is the WAAC behavior. Stopping your opponent as he is starting to measure for the second ship and letting him know that once he has checked range or arc for a shot he's commited to using the ship he measured from isn't.   

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

...Define "WAAC", for those of us who have never encountered the acronym before?

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

...Define "WAAC", for those of us who have never encountered the acronym before?

 

"Win at all costs," or possibly "win at any cost."

Edited October 5, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

...Define "WAAC", for those of us who have never encountered the acronym before?

 

It's a Prestige Class that Lawful Evil Rule Lawyers can take after hitting level level 10.  

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

 

...Define "WAAC", for those of us who have never encountered the acronym before?

 

It's a Prestige Class that Lawful Evil Rule Lawyers can take after hitting level level 10.  

 

Honestly, it actually has nothing to do with Rules Lawyers.  Yes, WAAC players will often come off as Rules Lawyers, but they're also the ones who'll do things like ignore mandatory effects when it benefits them, not share tokens even when readily available, take every generosity from an opponent and then slam them to the wall when the roles reverse.  Basically, anyone who values winning above everything else, to the point of one-sided exploitation and often outright cheating.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Stopping your opponent as he is starting to measure for the second ship and letting him know that once he has checked range or arc for a shot he's commited to using the ship he measured from isn't.   

 

I'm not sure there's anything to support this particular interpretation.  It's certainly an illegal measurement, but nothing says that measurement can only and must be for the next attack, and even more it doesn't mean that you automatically bypass every intervening step by making it.  If I happen to randomly pick up a focus token, do we jump to the end phase?  If I flip Han's dial at the beginning of the activation phase, do all the other ships in between lose their activation?  If I count up my destroyed points, does that mean the game is over?

 

I think there has to be some limit to what we call missed opportunities.  It's one thing to miss a step in the normal flow, or even two steps...  but especially with something which cannot be strictly attributed to a particular element (like measurement) we need to make sure we know what opportunity is being missed.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Stopping your opponent as he is starting to measure for the second ship and letting him know that once he has checked range or arc for a shot he's commited to using the ship he measured from isn't.   

 

I'm not sure there's anything to support this particular interpretation.  It's certainly an illegal measurement, but nothing says that measurement can only and must be for the next attack, and even more it doesn't mean that you automatically bypass every intervening step by making it.  If I happen to randomly pick up a focus token, do we jump to the end phase?  If I flip Han's dial at the beginning of the activation phase, do all the other ships in between lose their activation?  If I count up my destroyed points, does that mean the game is over?

 

I think there has to be some limit to what we call missed opportunities.  It's one thing to miss a step in the normal flow, or even two steps...  but especially with something which cannot be strictly attributed to a particular element (like measurement) we need to make sure we know what opportunity is being missed.

 

 

If it is the correct time for one of your ships to attack and you grab a range ruler and measure to one of my ships, I don't think it is any sort of stretch for me to insist that your measuring made that ship the active ship. There aren't any steps that are being skipped and the rules never give us an official procedure to declare that a ship is the active ship. Measuring is something that only the active ship may do and it may do so before doing any other attack step as it is part of the Declare Target step. 

 

If you've only measured from a single ship that is eligible to be the active ship and I stop you from measuring from a second ship that is also eligible and tell you that you must now complete the rest of the steps of attacking with the first ship, no illegal measurement has happened. If I permit you to measure from the second ship you've now made two measurements, one of which is illegal. The only way to prevent the illegal measurement is for the attack sequence to complete on the first ship that measured for the attack before allowing measurement from a second ship.

Edited October 5, 2015 by WWHSD

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 

...Define "WAAC", for those of us who have never encountered the acronym before?

 

It's a Prestige Class that Lawful Evil Rule Lawyers can take after hitting level level 10.  

 

Honestly, it actually has nothing to do with Rules Lawyers.  Yes, WAAC players will often come off as Rules Lawyers, but they're also the ones who'll do things like ignore mandatory effects when it benefits them, not share tokens even when readily available, take every generosity from an opponent and then slam them to the wall when the roles reverse.  Basically, anyone who values winning above everything else, to the point of one-sided exploitation and often outright cheating.

 

 

So what you are saying is that I'm wrong about the Lawful bit.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

If it is the correct time for one of your ships to attack and you grab a range ruler and measure to one of my ships, I don't think it is any sort of stretch for me to insist that your measuring made that ship the active ship.

It is very much a stretch.  If someone is running Han with 3Zs and checks a range on Han, does that mean they blow past every one of their Zs?  If I'm flying a classic swarm and check range from Howlrunner to a TIE, and one of your ships happens to be on the other side, does that make it Howlrunner's attack?

 

tell you that you must now complete the rest of the steps of attacking with the first ship, no illegal measurement has happened.

 

If someone does something that might be illegal, you don't just advance the game state to the first point where it happens to be legal.  That's ludicrous.  Can you name any other situations where you would do that?  If I happen to measure range to something during the activation phase, is it now that ship's attack just because I couldn't have done it otherwise?

 

There is a decision point where a player chooses which ship to attack with.  If you are waiting at that decision point, you don't move on when someone makes an illegal measurement - you treat the measurement as illegal, and handle it just like you would if they'd done it in the activation, planning, or end phases.

[Parravon 5,217]

I've always found that communication is the key. My opponent and I both tend to talk through our gameplay and state what we're doing at each step. 

• "I'm going to attack Luke with Howlrunner. That's two attack dice versus your two defense dice, right?"
• "I'm going to attempt a target lock on Han..."
• "I'm going to attack your Shuttle."  "He's got a Rebel Captive on board."  "OK, I'll put down a stress token then"

It's very effective and we both know exactly what's happening. I've found it only takes one player to start the process and the other generally follows suit and it eliminates a lot of errors.

 

It works for me and the guys I play with.

[WWHSD 9,273]

If it is the correct time for one of your ships to attack and you grab a range ruler and measure to one of my ships, I don't think it is any sort of stretch for me to insist that your measuring made that ship the active ship.

It is very much a stretch. If someone is running Han with 3Zs and checks a range on Han, does that mean they blow past every one of their Zs? If I'm flying a classic swarm and check range from Howlrunner to a TIE, and one of your ships happens to be on the other side, does that make it Howlrunner's attack?

tell you that you must now complete the rest of the steps of attacking with the first ship, no illegal measurement has happened.

If someone does something that might be illegal, you don't just advance the game state to the first point where it happens to be legal. That's ludicrous. Can you name any other situations where you would do that? If I happen to measure range to something during the activation phase, is it now that ship's attack just because I couldn't have done it otherwise?

There is a decision point where a player chooses which ship to attack with. If you are waiting at that decision point, you don't move on when someone makes an illegal measurement - you treat the measurement as illegal, and handle it just like you would if they'd done it in the activation, planning, or end phases.

Go back and read the situation that I'm talking about. It's not Han and 3 Zs. It's just the three Zs. All of them can legally be chosen as the active ship. I'm saying that measuring from one of them is enough to make that the active ship and that once that measurement is made that the controlling player must finish resolving the attack. For them to measure from a second Z-95 is not permited. Letting a player continue with that second measurement gives them an unfair advantage that can't be rolled back. I see no difference between this and if during the activation phase a player revealed the dial of one of those 3 Z-95s, laid a template down and then decided to move a different Z-95 first instead.

If you were the TO how would you handle it? I call you over and point out my opponent's three Bandits. I let you know that it is time for one of those ships to fire and that he has already measured to multiple targets from one of the Z-95s. Other than telling my opponent that he must finish attacking with the Z-95 he has measured from, how would you rule?

Edited October 6, 2015 by WWHSD

[Parravon 5,217]

I'd tell him "Declare which ship is the active ship and make all measurements and attacks before moving on to the next ship. Any measuring from any ship other than the active ship is considered pre-measuring and cheating."

 

'nuff said

[WWHSD 9,273]

I'd tell him "Declare which ship is the active ship and make all measurements and attacks before moving on to the next ship. Any measuring from any ship other than the active ship is considered pre-measuring and cheating."

 

'nuff said

 

That's not really "'nuff said" because I'm not sure that I understand how you ruled. Are you essentially giving the player a warning and then letting him choose a different ship to attack with?