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Ali Mesratep

Is the double-bladed lightsaber too powerful?

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Why using a single-bladed lightsaber then you can double your damages using a double-bladed lightsaber and two advantages?

 

Of course, the Unwieldy 3 quality limits the use of that weapon for characters with 3 in Agility, but is iy balances the Linked 1 quality? With that official rule, most lightsaber fighters should have the objective to get a double-bladed lightsaber to improve their efficiency in combat.

 

I propose the following house rule: the Linked 1 induced extra damages can only be inflicted to a secondary target. This can explain why Darth Maul uses a single blade in his first duel against Qui-Gon Jinn on Tatooine and why he uses two blades against Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi on Naboo. Therefore, the double-bladed lightsaber remains advantageous as a weapon allowing the face efficiently two opponents but is not overwhelming against a single target.

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Why using a single-bladed lightsaber then you can double your damages using a double-bladed lightsaber and two advantages?

Because a single bladed lightsaber is cheaper to upgrade, it's hard enough finding one crystal let alone two, and most lightsabers get down to a single advantage to crit anyways. Oh, and it's easier to hide the hilt.

Edited by Galth

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Crit. are interesting of course, but doubling the inflicted damages with two advantages is far more dangerous. With a basic double-bladed lightsaber, you can inflict a minimum of 14 points of damage in a single attack: which neutralizes most characters or, at least, causes a massive amount of Wounds in a single strike while you still have the chance to roll a crit. at the bottom of the table.

And about the costs, maybe double-bladed lightsabers are most expensive to upgrade, but it’s just a logistic argument, it worth the expense. Plus, the lightsaber is the main source of expense for a Jedi or a Sith.

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Thing is, though, just a regular 'saber is a killstick. Hitting twice is almost superfluous. With the appropriate mods, you'll be eviscerating rivals and minions left and right. The only thing with Linked is you'll probably be doing it a round faster, and rivals aren't going to possibly survive by chance. And heaven forbid the character have both multiple ranks in Lightsaber and gets his hands on Deadly Accuracy.

 

So yes, any lightsaber is going to almost trivialize any encounter. The key to countering that kind of power is preparation. Either keep your adversaries at a distance, or outfit them right. If they have to fight, give a nemesis a lightsaber, or a refined cortosis staff. Something that won't fall like limp tissue against a saber. And make sure you use Parry. If you want to give a nemesis extra survivability, armor with cortosis weave.

 

So with a weapon that can turn almost anything into confetti and is built in-game to reflect that, the question is no longer "how can I nerf this?" but "what must I do to make sure there is still a challenge?"

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All of this:

Because a single bladed lightsaber is cheaper to upgrade, it's hard enough finding one crystal let alone two, and most lightsabers get down to a single advantage to crit anyways. Oh, and it's easier to hide the hilt.

 

Not only does the double-bladed 'saber cost twice as much to upgrade, it costs twice as much to build/buy (18,600 credits vs 9,300).  The way I see it, if a character can get their hands on a second crystal or an additional 9 grand then, fine, they get to have Linked 1.

 

To the OP: Have you seen this as a problem in actual play? Or are you looking for problems?

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To the OP: Have you seen this as a problem in actual play? Or are you looking for problems?

 

I just get the book, so yes I’m looking for problems. I saw what the Linked quality can do to starfighters, so I’m a bit concern about what a double-bladed lightsaber can do to a PC. 

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I just get the book, so yes I’m looking for problems. I saw what the Linked quality can do to starfighters, so I’m a bit concern about what a double-bladed lightsaber can do to a PC. 

 

Moreso than most, you need to see this game in action to understand it, especially given the way the dice work.  Now the next sentence isn't intended to offend, but it needs to be said:  

 

Unless you have practical experience with the system, recommending/posting/discussing house-rules like this is a complete waste of time.

 

Sorry, but that's the truth.  

 

When you actually *see* a problem with the rules (these or others) then start proposing solutions. Until then... it's really not going to be very worthwhile.  Sorry.

 

I want to be very explicit that this isn't an attack or an insult and you're more than welcome to post and ask questions about the rules, and expect civil answers in return.  Not that you needed anyone's permission to do so in the first place, I just want to be clear on that.  Just be aware that, generally speaking, most community members here don't have a lot patience for hypothetical problems with the system.

Edited by LethalDose

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Sometimes, straight amount of damage is not the only factor. With the future of your character in mind, sometimes you know you're not going to use the advantages for Link. Well, maybe once in a while... but then you decide it's not worth the cost. Sometimes having Agillity 3 is not in your plans. And sometimes carrying a full-sized Encumbrance 2 rod is not what you want.

 

Edit: Oh and yes... Autofire. Autofire is so absurd that you could as well use some chopsticks and all that would matter is that some of you managed to roll Initiative high enough to gain the first slot in the combat.

Edited by Jereru

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I don't see it as anymore deadly than pairing a lightsabre with a shoto. Also I think Maul just uses one blade against Qui Gon because of his combat style. We've seen examples of a double bladed lightsabre being wielded against a single opponent too. So not igniting the other half seems to be more a style issue than something that isn't or can't be done when only fighting one person. 

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Yeah, a double-bladed lightsaber looks a lot more worrisome in terms of game mechanics than it really is.

 

Unless you're an Ataru Striker (who get a talent that provides Linked = Force Rating anyway), Agility may well be a dump stat; I suspect there aren't very many Niman Disciples or Shii-Cho Knights that are going to have a 3 in Agility to overcome the Unwieldy trait.

 

Plus, that extra hit has to be against the same target as the first hit.  Granted, it makes the double-bladed 'saber more of a kill stick against a minion group, since one hit's probably going to gank your average minion, and if you've got 4 advantage you can take out two extra minions (presuming a standard Ilum crystal for Crit 2), and it can be pretty nasty against a Nemesis, but then a decent Nemesis for a 'saber-wielding hero (such as an Inquisitor) probably also has Parry, which cuts down the damage factor quite a bit.  Against Rivals... the extra hit simply ensures that your target drops on the first attack roll.

 

Plus, as others have said the cost for attachments (such as the very handy superior hilt customization) are doubled, making installing those neat extras all the more expensive.

 

So the double-bladed lightsaber is good, but it's not game-breakingly good the way that auto-fire is.

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Crit. are interesting of course, but doubling the inflicted damages with two advantages is far more dangerous. With a basic double-bladed lightsaber, you can inflict a minimum of 14 points of damage in a single attack: which neutralizes most characters or, at least, causes a massive amount of Wounds in a single strike while you still have the chance to roll a crit. at the bottom of the table.

And about the costs, maybe double-bladed lightsabers are most expensive to upgrade, but it’s just a logistic argument, it worth the expense. Plus, the lightsaber is the main source of expense for a Jedi or a Sith.

 

Don't forget the huge amount of Vicious a lightsaber can pack.  Somewhere in the area of +50, making an instagib very possible.   And you can't ignore the increased cost and decreased concealment, either.  It's much more difficult to hide a lightsaber staff on your person than a regular hilt.  Even if it breaks into two.

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Unless you're an Ataru Striker (who get a talent that provides Linked = Force Rating anyway), Agility may well be a dump stat; I suspect there aren't very many Niman Disciples or Shii-Cho Knights that are going to have a 3 in Agility to overcome the Unwieldy trait.

 

I gotta say, I find the double bladed lightsaber VERY tempting for a Niman Disciple.  Higher Force Rating than other specs, and adding Force pips to Lightsaber checks means you succeed a lot, so all you need is those Advantages.  Playing around with the combo a bit, I found that it wasn't uncommon to have a single roll result in "Okay, I can ignore those Dark pips, fail the attack roll, and I guess give the opponent a setback die, or I can call upon the Dark Side, hit this guy TWICE, and maybe end the fight right now."  Which, as a GM, is such a juicy dilemma.  Of course, that's just in playtesting, not live play.

 

So, yes, a Double-Bladed lightsaber is pretty badass, but it's not game-breaking at all.  

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Unless you're an Ataru Striker (who get a talent that provides Linked = Force Rating anyway), Agility may well be a dump stat; I suspect there aren't very many Niman Disciples or Shii-Cho Knights that are going to have a 3 in Agility to overcome the Unwieldy trait.

 

I gotta say, I find the double bladed lightsaber VERY tempting for a Niman Disciple.  Higher Force Rating than other specs, and adding Force pips to Lightsaber checks means you succeed a lot, so all you need is those Advantages.  Playing around with the combo a bit, I found that it wasn't uncommon to have a single roll result in "Okay, I can ignore those Dark pips, fail the attack roll, and I guess give the opponent a setback die, or I can call upon the Dark Side, hit this guy TWICE, and maybe end the fight right now."  Which, as a GM, is such a juicy dilemma.  Of course, that's just in playtesting, not live play.

 

So, yes, a Double-Bladed lightsaber is pretty badass, but it's not game-breaking at all.  

 

 

Maybe I am blind, but I was unaware of any talent/rule that added Force Die/Points to lightsaber checks - am I missing something?

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instagib

That's why you got the like. It's been ages ... :ph34r:

My limited experience with a double bladed glow stick is that it takes out minions left and right... Rivals too sometimes. It's beard, but as the other's have been saying, it balances out in the end.

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Unless you're an Ataru Striker (who get a talent that provides Linked = Force Rating anyway), Agility may well be a dump stat; I suspect there aren't very many Niman Disciples or Shii-Cho Knights that are going to have a 3 in Agility to overcome the Unwieldy trait.

 

I gotta say, I find the double bladed lightsaber VERY tempting for a Niman Disciple.  Higher Force Rating than other specs, and adding Force pips to Lightsaber checks means you succeed a lot, so all you need is those Advantages.  Playing around with the combo a bit, I found that it wasn't uncommon to have a single roll result in "Okay, I can ignore those Dark pips, fail the attack roll, and I guess give the opponent a setback die, or I can call upon the Dark Side, hit this guy TWICE, and maybe end the fight right now."  Which, as a GM, is such a juicy dilemma.  Of course, that's just in playtesting, not live play.

 

So, yes, a Double-Bladed lightsaber is pretty badass, but it's not game-breaking at all.  

 

 

Maybe I am blind, but I was unaware of any talent/rule that added Force Die/Points to lightsaber checks - am I missing something?

 

 

Nman has draw closer which pretty much becomes the attack of choice for Nman users once they have it.

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Unless you're an Ataru Striker (who get a talent that provides Linked = Force Rating anyway), Agility may well be a dump stat; I suspect there aren't very many Niman Disciples or Shii-Cho Knights that are going to have a 3 in Agility to overcome the Unwieldy trait.

 

I gotta say, I find the double bladed lightsaber VERY tempting for a Niman Disciple.  Higher Force Rating than other specs, and adding Force pips to Lightsaber checks means you succeed a lot, so all you need is those Advantages.  Playing around with the combo a bit, I found that it wasn't uncommon to have a single roll result in "Okay, I can ignore those Dark pips, fail the attack roll, and I guess give the opponent a setback die, or I can call upon the Dark Side, hit this guy TWICE, and maybe end the fight right now."  Which, as a GM, is such a juicy dilemma.  Of course, that's just in playtesting, not live play.

 

So, yes, a Double-Bladed lightsaber is pretty badass, but it's not game-breaking at all.  

 

 

Maybe I am blind, but I was unaware of any talent/rule that added Force Die/Points to lightsaber checks - am I missing something?

 

 

Nman has draw closer which pretty much becomes the attack of choice for Nman users once they have it.

 

 

Ah, I see now, for some reason I completely missed the "or" use Force Points for extra successes on the Talent description, which does kind of make that Talent ridiculously powerful. I kind of think the "come here" part combined with a combat action is enough on its own, since otherwise it would require a seperate action and fairly upgraded Move power. At least it technically can't be used on minions, since they are not "one" target, but many.

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I tend to think Hawk Bat swoop is alot more reasonable since the Force Points add Advantage, not successes, and is less likely to add statistically to your chances of combat success while allowing incidental movement and battlefield maneaverability.

 

As far as Draw Closer and minions, since a person is silhouette 1 and that is also a limitation of the talent, it is still resonable to interpret a minion group of silhouette 1 oppenents with more than 1 minion as being out bounds the way the Talent is written. Additionally, if you are actually using the talent to actually draw opponents closer instead of boosting you're chances of successes, that would be like saying a group of four minions (say stormtroopers) come hurtling at you from across a battle field to engaged range (and apparently setting them gently on the ground without any penalties to their actions). A single opponent I can see, not a minion group, and if its unreasonable to use a Talent for the purpose it is named for it seems silly to use for the purpose it isn't named for.

 

No offense intended in any of this, this is just my interpretation and reasoning behind it.

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I'm not sure if I've noticed anything in the rules about breaking up a group of minions, but If I was GMing I would allow a single minion to be seperated from a minion group with Draw Closer, and break the minion into two groups, a single and and what ever remains. It makes narrative and mechanical sense since being a single "target" is what strengthens a group of minions, that the power could split a group weakening both. This keeps Draw Closer useful against minions and narratively interesting without letting a user draw an entire group and ginzu them in a single hit. This would also keep silly things like drawning a minion group only part way (say half way across a chasm) and dropping them all into an environmental hazard. Something like that could still be accomplished, but should be part of an upgraded Move action, not a talent that gives a new trained combat action. At least in my humble opinion.

 

Also, apologies to all for going so far off topic thread, I really had just missed the extra successes option on Draw Closer and was beating my head against the rule book trying to figure out if adding Force Die to Lightsaber combat rolls was some obscure rule I had missed.

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I'm going to risk a further derail because I think this deserves an answer:

I'm not sure if I've noticed anything in the rules about breaking up a group of minions, but If I was GMing I would allow a single minion to be seperated from a minion group with Draw Closer, and break the minion into two groups, a single and and what ever remains.

 

AFAIK, there is no rule that prohibits the separation of a group of minions into other, smaller groups and, IMO, the resolution you described is totally reasonable.  In fact the F&D core book states GMs can use minions as adversaries either as individuals or in groups.  

 

This topic (like *way* too many on these forums) has led to a lot of contention in the past.  It doesn't mean it's a problem, just that different tables may interpret things differently.  I think it's paramount to remember that the minion rules are written as they are as a *convenience* for the GM, not as some unbreakable gospel.

 

As a player, if you're ever unclear on how something like this would work, ask your GM.

 

As a GM, if something is unclear, it's usually best to make 'table ruling" to keep the game moving and try to be consistent about it for the session.  Afterwards, you can revisit the issue, make a more permanent ruling, and then communicate the final[-ish] decision to the group.  It's reasonable to let that ruling stand until it becomes problematic (either via abuse, found contradictions, etc.)

 

This game just has a lot of grey areas, and the best GM's can do about it is be as consistent as is reasonable.

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