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Ayleron

Inefficiencies in new ships

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Rexler is at least less of a terrible buy than the generics.  :)

 

The PS1 is about 76%.

Vessery is about 85% without his ability kicking in, and 100% with.

Rexler is about 85%.

 

As an interesting comparison point, Rear Admiral Chiraneau without upgrades is around 79%, and Han Solo without any upgrades is, I think, around 84% (Han's numbers aren't updated in my thread yet).

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I think the broader problem is that the pilot skill element of the game isn't working very well, and that makes several upgrades and even actions hard to price accurately. But that's not something that FFG can easily fix (nor do I have any hint that they would even want to do so). 

 

 

I just want to add that I agree, especially from a costing perspective.   You don't always get what you pay for in terms of PS, especially in the middle ranges where PS can be just as easily valuable as wasted points, so ships (especially uniques)  in those ranges are almost exclusively being purchased for their abilities.  

 

I also think that we've run into problems where they seem to have a certain range they like for costing the ships between the lowest and highest PS (usually PS difference +1pt for the ability)   For example, Corran Horn seems pretty well costed, but his cost seems to have raised the price of the other EWings to maintain that same formula.   For them to avoid fixes I think they need to move on from PS=1 pt formula they've been using, but it's probably too late for that.

 

 

I used to look at it that way--they just need to decouple the cost of a high-PS pilots from the cost of a low-PS one! And that would be better, but these days I mean something more radical. 

 

Pilot skill is an interesting game mechanic: it means you get to attempt to determine at the list-building stage which ships get to go first. But as executed, I think it's mostly a detriment to the game because it ends up reducing list diversity. And by that I mean that PS bids sometimes come with pilot abilities you may not want to pay for, and vice versa, which ends up depressing the value of many low-PS pilots.

 

The net effect is that if you think Soontir's ability is really cool and valuable you end up paying for PS9 whether or not that's important to your build or to the matchup. If you want a PS9+ TIE Defender you're buying Rexler Brath regardless of whether or how you intend to use his ability. And overall, that creates a weird system for PS where it doesn't actually represent the cool bidding-war for movement and firing position--instead, some "locations" on the PS spectrum are inflated by particularly desirable pilot abilities, and other pilot abilities can't be used well because they aren't attached to desirable PS.

 

If the game used Armada-style (also Warmachine/Hordes-style) alternating activation, I think the game would work better on a number of fronts. From the design perspective, balance would be easier, since you'd be pricing pilot abilities (and EPT access) alone rather than trying to price the combination of pilot ability + PS bid. Access to actions would be easier to price, since you're no longer trying to price the complex interaction of (e.g.) the boost-BR combination not only with a ship's PS bid but the likelihood of success with that bid.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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Meh.  

 

PS activation is a cool part of X-wing design imo.  But very very flawed as we can all see. I'd rather see PS though than alternating.  That's boring. 

 

What I do want to see though is changes in the fundamental rules or added upgrades that create viability in even small PS bids.

Say you take two PS3s in your list and the other player is playing 9 9 9.  I think there should be something that you get for the PS3.  

One idea I've had is that PS3 can get these upgrades:

0 cost: add an EPT slot if your PS is 3 or more,  and you don't have one already. 

1 cost: After a higher PS enemy ship has executed a maneuver (but before its actions), you may discard this card.  If you do, perform a free barrel roll or boost action if that action is on your action bar. 

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Another interesting upgrade could be a 1-shot "make your activation at PS 12" type card. It would be a neat counter to high PS bids by making them be a little more,careful selecting their move. Soontir would be at a little more,risk doing Soontir things.

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Rexler is at least less of a terrible buy than the generics.  :)

 

The PS1 is about 76%.

Vessery is about 85% without his ability kicking in, and 100% with.

Rexler is about 85%.

 

As an interesting comparison point, Rear Admiral Chiraneau without upgrades is around 79%, and Han Solo without any upgrades is, I think, around 84% (Han's numbers aren't updated in my thread yet).

 

translation: vessery is the goddamn man

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Rexler is at least less of a terrible buy than the generics.  :)

 

The PS1 is about 76%.

Vessery is about 85% without his ability kicking in, and 100% with.

Rexler is about 85%.

 

As an interesting comparison point, Rear Admiral Chiraneau without upgrades is around 79%, and Han Solo without any upgrades is, I think, around 84% (Han's numbers aren't updated in my thread yet).

 

translation: vessery is the goddamn man

 

And with TIE Advanceds and Imperial A-wings TIE/Fos coming with target locks as standard, there's even buddies to paint targets for him now. :)

 

I predict he'll be making at least a modest comeback in the near future, though I don't know if the meta is terribly favourable to 3-5 ship 3AGI lists right now... so he might have to wait his turn yet.

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Rexler is at least less of a terrible buy than the generics.  :)

 

The PS1 is about 76%.

Vessery is about 85% without his ability kicking in, and 100% with.

Rexler is about 85%.

 

As an interesting comparison point, Rear Admiral Chiraneau without upgrades is around 79%, and Han Solo without any upgrades is, I think, around 84% (Han's numbers aren't updated in my thread yet).

 

translation: vessery is the goddamn man

 

 

Vessery is also a massive headache, if you're thinking about fixes. One pilot that's pretty functional, mixed in with three pilots that are three points underpriced...?

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So.... At the top of the thread list

We have one thread complaining that the new ships are overpowered and completely invalidate the 2 older ships and

Another thread complaining that the new ships are inefficient and not worth playing

And in both of these threads the overwhelming opinion of the group mind is that the OP is wrong and it is actually the opposite.

That about sum it up?

Yup. You see, people love to complain and simultaneously hate admitting things might be their fault, so what we are seeing is that a new balanced ship has been released and the people who used it but couldn't figure out how to play it well go on the forums to rant about how awful it is while the people who played against it and couldn't play well enough to beat it go on to the forums to complain about how overpowered it is.

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Rexler is at least less of a terrible buy than the generics.  :)

 

The PS1 is about 76%.

Vessery is about 85% without his ability kicking in, and 100% with.

Rexler is about 85%.

 

As an interesting comparison point, Rear Admiral Chiraneau without upgrades is around 79%, and Han Solo without any upgrades is, I think, around 84% (Han's numbers aren't updated in my thread yet).

 

translation: vessery is the goddamn man

 

 

Vessery is also a massive headache, if you're thinking about fixes. One pilot that's pretty functional, mixed in with three pilots that are three points underpriced...?

 

 

Well, they could work on the one thing that all Defenders are terrible at: Defensive Consistency.

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Rexler is at least less of a terrible buy than the generics.  :)

 

The PS1 is about 76%.

Vessery is about 85% without his ability kicking in, and 100% with.

Rexler is about 85%.

 

As an interesting comparison point, Rear Admiral Chiraneau without upgrades is around 79%, and Han Solo without any upgrades is, I think, around 84% (Han's numbers aren't updated in my thread yet).

 

translation: vessery is the goddamn man

 

 

Vessery is also a massive headache, if you're thinking about fixes. One pilot that's pretty functional, mixed in with three pilots that are three points underpriced...?

 

 

Well, they could work on the one thing that all Defenders are terrible at: Defensive Consistency.

 

 

Sure, but even so: if you provide 3 points' worth of additional defensive consistency (aka, action economy) to the Defender, you end up with a nicely balanced Delta and Rexler Brath, and a Vessery that operates at about 110% of his stat line value.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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The PS system is fine. In a meta dominated by low PS generics, mid PS bids are worth it.

 

The problem is that we have HLC turrets at PS 7 running around with a bunch of power upgrades. All of these power combos making expensive high PS ships appealing is the problem, not the PS system. It used to be that PS 9 ships weren't in every other list, and PS bidding was more nuanced. In a meta dominated by Academy Pilots and Blue Squadron Pilots, a bid to Obsidian or Dagger Squadron would actually get you something other than just not getting double Predator-ed. Now you bid to mid PS and and everyone is still ******* running Dash Corran and Soontir Deci.

 

The only way you can really bid PS above Dashes and Aggressors and Corrans (only to have everyone still beat you with PS 9) is to fly gimmick squadrons based around Swarm tactics chains or to fly a dumb two ship list yourself. 2 attack dice ships are meaningless against most fat turrets and high PS ace ships unless you can fly 8 of them, so High PS ace + 4-5 Z's/Ties is less optimal than High PS Ace + Fat turret.

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Yes, but I sometimes have to wonder if people don't take Tie Defenders due to their reputation and not enough people have given them a chance. That's the frustrating part that I wonder about. I get the numbers, but I like to look past them for reasons. I guess that's why I was a liberal arts major.

Part of the issue with the Defender is that it's hard to make full use out of, _in addition_ to having a lower efficiency than I'd like.

Granted! The TIE Mrk 2 engine helps lower the skill barrier somewhat.

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Vessery is also a massive headache, if you're thinking about fixes. One pilot that's pretty functional, mixed in with three pilots that are three points underpriced...?

There was that same issue with Vader, were he was roughly (as I recall) 3 points over costed, vs 4 points too much for every over Advanced. I think FFG's solution was "screw it, he's Vader."

The other thing to think about is that Vessery needs to be supported in order to gain full efficiency. Unless you're talking about him partnering with an ATC Advanced, a TL for V's benefit is an action not being taken by a higher PS ship.

Too- getting full use from V's ability limits your squad building options. A Vessery/Soontir pairing might be nice on paper, but since Soontir would have to spend 2 points and a mod slot to support another ship. That's not great.

And running Vessery alongside several Academy Pilots would have the same issue.

At the current time, Vessery is not mobile enough to take him in the Soontir/Whisper slot of a 2 ship Imperial list.

Speaking of those 2 pilots: since Vessery is PS6, he will very often be prey for the hypermobile Aces that non-swarm lists tend to run. I actually do like that dynamic, but it is something to take into consideration.

Don't get me wrong! He's got a good ability. But it takes work both on and off the table for him to reach that 100% efficiency mark. So even doing something to make him 3 points more efficient won't necessarily make him over powered.

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It used to be that ... PS bidding was more nuanced.

No, it really wasn't. It was the same problem in reverse, and was no more or less "nuanced" than it is now.

Yup! Both Predator and Assault missiles were directly designed to counter the TIE Swarm meta. And Blount? He was designed to fire Assult missiles consistently.

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Let me be a bit more specific. While I understand they want the "elite" pilots to be better enough to be desirable over the fenerics, but I feel like the generics continue to be overcosted. Poe is a monster, as is Corran, but the e-wing and the t70 generics are definitely points heavy.

Not nearly as badly as the TIE Defender is. But i understand your point. E-Wings aren't really viable in squads that are more than 3 ships. T-70s are a good in-between point between an E-Wing and a normal X-Wing, however. Not prohibitively expensive for the generics, enough to fit 4 in one list with enough for an astro and soon to be IA, the PS4 generic has an EPT slot,  and the nameds are well priced for the role they can serve. 31 points for Poe isn't bad at all, especially considering that he's only 2 points more than Wedge, and 1 point less than Etahn A'baht, a PS5 E-Wing pilot. T-70s can be outfitted for jousting or arc-dodging, your choice. They seem like a more general ship than either one is. X-Wing isn't quite powerful enough, E-Wing is too expensive to fit in the list, T-70 is juuuuust right. 

 

I'm going to be calling T-70's the Goldilocks ship now.

 

Except defenders' generics are still viable in multiple lists

 

The E-Wing is overcosted but it's also viable in multiple lists as well. Overcosted =/= not viable.

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Yes, but I sometimes have to wonder if people don't take Tie Defenders due to their reputation and not enough people have given them a chance.  That's the frustrating part that I wonder about.  I get the numbers, but I like to look past them for reasons.  I guess that's why I was a liberal arts major. 

I took the defender because it looked cool. Then i fell in love.

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Let me be a bit more specific. While I understand they want the "elite" pilots to be better enough to be desirable over the fenerics, but I feel like the generics continue to be overcosted. Poe is a monster, as is Corran, but the e-wing and the t70 generics are definitely points heavy.

Not nearly as badly as the TIE Defender is. But i understand your point. E-Wings aren't really viable in squads that are more than 3 ships. T-70s are a good in-between point between an E-Wing and a normal X-Wing, however. Not prohibitively expensive for the generics, enough to fit 4 in one list with enough for an astro and soon to be IA, the PS4 generic has an EPT slot,  and the nameds are well priced for the role they can serve. 31 points for Poe isn't bad at all, especially considering that he's only 2 points more than Wedge, and 1 point less than Etahn A'baht, a PS5 E-Wing pilot. T-70s can be outfitted for jousting or arc-dodging, your choice. They seem like a more general ship than either one is. X-Wing isn't quite powerful enough, E-Wing is too expensive to fit in the list, T-70 is juuuuust right. 

 

I'm going to be calling T-70's the Goldilocks ship now.

 

Except defenders' generics are still viable in multiple lists

 

The E-Wing is overcosted but it's also viable in multiple lists as well. Overcosted =/= not viable.

 

Be fair. Corran Horn is not overcosted.

 

That's a little different to "E-wings". He and Vessery will be causing the biggest headaches for the game devs trying to come up with fixes, that's for sure... both pilots are decent for their cost while flying what is a very capable, albeit expensive ship. It's noteworthy that both pilots achieve this efficiency by being able to maximise their offensive firepower, too - which is to say, their pilot abilities are directly boosting their jousting values.

 

Make the others cost-effective, and you'll make the aces even better. At least Vader self-balances a teeny bit by having bonus actions on a ship relatively limited in its ability to exploit them, due to dial and action options...

Edited by Reiver

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Let me be a bit more specific. While I understand they want the "elite" pilots to be better enough to be desirable over the fenerics, but I feel like the generics continue to be overcosted. Poe is a monster, as is Corran, but the e-wing and the t70 generics are definitely points heavy.

Not nearly as badly as the TIE Defender is. But i understand your point. E-Wings aren't really viable in squads that are more than 3 ships. T-70s are a good in-between point between an E-Wing and a normal X-Wing, however. Not prohibitively expensive for the generics, enough to fit 4 in one list with enough for an astro and soon to be IA, the PS4 generic has an EPT slot,  and the nameds are well priced for the role they can serve. 31 points for Poe isn't bad at all, especially considering that he's only 2 points more than Wedge, and 1 point less than Etahn A'baht, a PS5 E-Wing pilot. T-70s can be outfitted for jousting or arc-dodging, your choice. They seem like a more general ship than either one is. X-Wing isn't quite powerful enough, E-Wing is too expensive to fit in the list, T-70 is juuuuust right. 

 

I'm going to be calling T-70's the Goldilocks ship now.

 

Except defenders' generics are still viable in multiple lists

 

The E-Wing is overcosted but it's also viable in multiple lists as well. Overcosted =/= not viable.

 

Be fair. Corran Horn is not overcosted.

 

That's a little different to "E-wings". He and Vessery will be causing the biggest headaches for the game devs trying to come up with fixes, that's for sure... both pilots are decent for their cost while flying what is a very capable, albeit expensive ship. It's noteworthy that both pilots achieve this efficiency by being able to maximise their offensive firepower, too - which is to say, their pilot abilities are directly boosting their jousting values.

 

Make the others cost-effective, and you'll make the aces even better. At least Vader self-balances a teeny bit by having bonus actions on a ship relatively limited in its ability to exploit them, due to dial and action options...

 

Corran Horn is still overcosted, but it's only by a point and a half rather than the usual 4-5 points that E-Wings are overcosted by. Corran Horn not being as overcosted doesnt mean anything to the E-Wing. It just means Corran Horn as a pilot isn't significantly overcosted. Which is why he is the only one that sees significant usage. 

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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Let me be a bit more specific. While I understand they want the "elite" pilots to be better enough to be desirable over the fenerics, but I feel like the generics continue to be overcosted. Poe is a monster, as is Corran, but the e-wing and the t70 generics are definitely points heavy.

Not nearly as badly as the TIE Defender is. But i understand your point. E-Wings aren't really viable in squads that are more than 3 ships. T-70s are a good in-between point between an E-Wing and a normal X-Wing, however. Not prohibitively expensive for the generics, enough to fit 4 in one list with enough for an astro and soon to be IA, the PS4 generic has an EPT slot,  and the nameds are well priced for the role they can serve. 31 points for Poe isn't bad at all, especially considering that he's only 2 points more than Wedge, and 1 point less than Etahn A'baht, a PS5 E-Wing pilot. T-70s can be outfitted for jousting or arc-dodging, your choice. They seem like a more general ship than either one is. X-Wing isn't quite powerful enough, E-Wing is too expensive to fit in the list, T-70 is juuuuust right. 

 

I'm going to be calling T-70's the Goldilocks ship now.

 

Except defenders' generics are still viable in multiple lists

 

The E-Wing is overcosted but it's also viable in multiple lists as well. Overcosted =/= not viable.

 

Be fair. Corran Horn is not overcosted.

 

That's a little different to "E-wings". He and Vessery will be causing the biggest headaches for the game devs trying to come up with fixes, that's for sure... both pilots are decent for their cost while flying what is a very capable, albeit expensive ship. It's noteworthy that both pilots achieve this efficiency by being able to maximise their offensive firepower, too - which is to say, their pilot abilities are directly boosting their jousting values.

 

Make the others cost-effective, and you'll make the aces even better. At least Vader self-balances a teeny bit by having bonus actions on a ship relatively limited in its ability to exploit them, due to dial and action options...

 

Corran Horn is still overcosted, but it's only by a point and a half rather than the usual 4-5 points that E-Wings are overcosted by. Corran Horn not being as overcosted doesnt mean anything to the E-Wing. It just means Corran Horn as a pilot isn't significantly overcosted. Which is why he is the only one that sees significant usage. 

 

And how much are defenders "overcosted" by?

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And how much are defenders "overcosted" by?

 

 

Generic defenders look overpriced by about 3 points, in comparison to their stat line. Rexler Brath is overpriced by between 2 and 3 points, and Vessery is fairly priced (his ability gives him fantastic action economy, nearly on par with Vader or Soontir Fel). 

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They had to balance the T-70 for whatever fixes are coming for the T-65. Basically the fate of the generic T-70 is tied to the fate of the generic T-65.

Soon coming to a friendly store near you, in a $100 huge ship expansion!

More likely an Aces pack.

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