Inefficiencies in new ships

[Ayleron 204]

Believe what you will about "mathwing," but the ships that are overpriced by mathmatical theory are not used as often. They are harder to fit in a list, and ignored for the few ships that are properly priced. The new x-wing appears to be even more in-efficient than it's often maligned predecessor. Why do you think FFG continues to produce over costed ships?

Edited October 4, 2015 by Ayleron

[DarthEnderX 5,286]

I think you don't know what overcost means if you think the T-70 is more overcosted than the original X-Wing.

Edited October 4, 2015 by DarthEnderX

[Ayleron 204]

Let me be a bit more specific. While I understand they want the "elite" pilots to be better enough to be desirable over the fenerics, but I feel like the generics continue to be overcosted. Poe is a monster, as is Corran, but the e-wing and the t70 generics are definitely points heavy.

[Razgriz25thinf 1,430]

Let me be a bit more specific. While I understand they want the "elite" pilots to be better enough to be desirable over the fenerics, but I feel like the generics continue to be overcosted. Poe is a monster, as is Corran, but the e-wing and the t70 generics are definitely points heavy.

Not nearly as badly as the TIE Defender is. But i understand your point. E-Wings aren't really viable in squads that are more than 3 ships. T-70s are a good in-between point between an E-Wing and a normal X-Wing, however. Not prohibitively expensive for the generics, enough to fit 4 in one list with enough for an astro and soon to be IA, the PS4 generic has an EPT slot,  and the nameds are well priced for the role they can serve. 31 points for Poe isn't bad at all, especially considering that he's only 2 points more than Wedge, and 1 point less than Etahn A'baht, a PS5 E-Wing pilot. T-70s can be outfitted for jousting or arc-dodging, your choice. They seem like a more general ship than either one is. X-Wing isn't quite powerful enough, E-Wing is too expensive to fit in the list, T-70 is juuuuust right. 

 

I'm going to be calling T-70's the Goldilocks ship now.

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

Let me be a bit more specific. While I understand they want the "elite" pilots to be better enough to be desirable over the fenerics, but I feel like the generics continue to be overcosted. Poe is a monster, as is Corran, but the e-wing and the t70 generics are definitely points heavy.

 

c'est la vie

 

apart from the special-K (no idea about Hound's Tooth), Wave 7 bore witness to the two least efficient **** ships in the game (Punisher and K-wing)

 

 

that's because we've basically already capped design space i.t.o efficiency. If you release a more effcient ship than a tie or B-wing, you're just power creeping at that point.

 

instead, FFg seems to be trying to release ships that operate outside the realms of jousting values and towards more directly influencing gameplay. The punisher and K acomplish this ala lovely, lovely mines.

 

The T-70 doesn't really acomplish this and has to rely on its awesome Poe

 

the red vet may have some untapped potential, especially with Targeting Astro coming out (frees up the EPT slot for crackshot ), but the poor thing is fragile

[Ayleron 204]

I am not really wanting them to be MORE effeicient than the b-wing, but rather close to as efficient. If things were more level field in eficiency I feel it would lead to even more variety.

[AlexW 2,902]

The only "competitive" generic fighter upon release since Wave 4 was the Z. Before that, it was the Bwing. Almost all small base ships have required later upgrades to make them efficient. I wish it wasn't the case, but I now expect that rather than expecting them to be competitive on release. They are incredibly conservative with them.

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

Why do you think FFG continues to produce over costed ships?

 

They either lack the desire and / or technical expertise to use advanced mathematics to balance the game.

 

I think you don't know what overcost means if you think the T-70 is more overcosted than the original X-Wing.

 

The T-70 X-wing is actually less efficient from a stat line efficiency perspective (jousting value).

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Ehh.
Back in Wave III, I experimented with a BBXX list, wherein the Bs had Advanced Sensors, and the Xs had Engine Upgrades, and I just played clownfish in my asteroid anemonie.

 

The T-70 buys me a superior maneuver dial, more survivability, and a 1 point astromech for the same cost.

 

Might have to dust the old boy off...

[Sithborg 11,644]

The math is not the only thing in this game.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

The T-70 X-wing is actually less efficient from a stat line efficiency perspective (jousting value).

 

...How?

The T-70 pays fewer points per HP (24/6 < 21/5), and it's got the same offensive stats.

For that matter, it can bring those guns to bear more often through the superior Dial and the Boost action.

 

Even throwing out the Boost action, the Tallon Roll, and the additional green maneuver, (Which I am loath to do) is that 6th HP really so fragile as to deny its owner 3 points worth of damage?

 

 

MajorJuggler, I know you know what you're talking about, but I am simply confused by your statement.

[Radarman5 1,347]

It's probably safer for game balance to over cost rather than under cost a ship. Once they see how it performs in the tournament circuit they can think about what sort of fixes might get it where it needs to be. This is one of the main advantages to the Living Game format.

[Tipperary 2,370]

It's probably safer for game balance to over cost rather than under cost a ship. Once they see how it performs in the tournament circuit they can think about what sort of fixes might get it where it needs to be. This is one of the main advantages to the Living Game format.

This.

 

They can't release a "fix" that increases a ship's cost for no other effect and expect anyone to take it, but decrease and it'll be everywhere.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

So.... At the top of the thread list

We have one thread complaining that the new ships are overpowered and completely invalidate the 2 older ships and

Another thread complaining that the new ships are inefficient and not worth playing

And in both of these threads the overwhelming opinion of the group mind is that the OP is wrong and it is actually the opposite.

That about sum it up?

[Sithborg 11,644]

There is a nice middle ground, called good. 

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

 

The T-70 X-wing is actually less efficient from a stat line efficiency perspective (jousting value).

 

...How?

The T-70 pays fewer points per HP (24/6 < 21/5), and it's got the same offensive stats.

 

Stat line efficiency only cares about 5 variables: cost, attack, agility, hull, shields. The T-70 gains 1 shield but it costs 3 more points.

 

3/2/3/2 is worth just under 18 points. T-65 jousting efficiency is therefore about:

18 * (1 + 1/24) / 21 = 89.3%

 

3/2/3/3 is worth about 20 points. T-70 jousting efficiency is therefore about:

20 * (1 + 1/24) / 24 = 86.8%

 

Boost on the T-70 is nice, but will not be enough to make the PS2 viable. This is easy to predict because the PS1 TIE Interceptor also has boost, and has a better jousting efficiency of ~90%, but is basically extinct now.

 

Poe is another story. I haven't done the math on him yet.

[Red Castle 3,875]

 

 

The T-70 X-wing is actually less efficient from a stat line efficiency perspective (jousting value).

 

...How?

The T-70 pays fewer points per HP (24/6 < 21/5), and it's got the same offensive stats.

 

Stat line efficiency only cares about 5 variables: cost, attack, agility, hull, shields. The T-70 gains 1 shield but it costs 3 more points.

 

3/2/3/2 is worth just under 18 points. T-65 jousting efficiency is therefore about:

18 * (1 + 1/24) / 21 = 89.3%

 

3/2/3/3 is worth about 20 points. T-70 jousting efficiency is therefore about:

20 * (1 + 1/24) / 24 = 86.8%

 

Boost on the T-70 is nice, but will not be enough to make the PS2 viable. This is easy to predict because the PS1 TIE Interceptor also has boost, and has a better jousting efficiency of ~90%, but is basically extinct now.

 

Poe is another story. I haven't done the math on him yet.

 

Curious. How about when you give them Integrated Astromech and a R2 unit? Do they fare better?

[Marinealver 8,073]

 

Why do you think FFG continues to produce over costed ships?

 

They either lack the desire and / or technical expertise to use advanced mathematics to balance the game.

 

I think you don't know what overcost means if you think the T-70 is more overcosted than the original X-Wing.

 

The T-70 X-wing is actually less efficient from a stat line efficiency perspective (jousting value).

 

That would be without auto-thrusters. If autothrusters were to theoretically fire off how would that effect the jousting value?

 

Not to mention autothrusters on 2 agility against TLT attacks.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

Believe what you will about "mathwing," but the ships that are overpriced by mathmatical theory are not used as often. They are harder to fit in a list, and ignored for the few ships that are properly priced. The new x-wing appears to be even more in-efficient than it's often maligned predecessor. Why do you think FFG continues to produce over costed ships?

Ever since the Phantom the game has been balanced in regards to two tiers. There are ships that were balanced to be on the level of the (pre-nerf) Phantom, and ships that are just balanced.

Wave 5 and Dual Aggressors are balanced to be on par with the Phantom and how devastating it is/was. Most things since then besides for those are of the second, 'this is a non-turret ship that moves once, performs one action, and attacks once and doesn't have a systems and crew slot and EPT simultaneously' normal ship tier, like X-Wings and Scyks and Defenders and B-Wings and TIE Fighters.

There are a few ships from the second tier that can compete decently with the game ruining super ship tier, like Vader and Soontir and B-Wings and the new Advanced in general and super guri/xizor. All the rest is garbage autoloss junk vs. an HLC turret with pre-phantom nerf mobility and hyper action economy though.

And then there is TLT peace be upon him. Once everyone sees the light and acquires enough TLT cards and Y-Wings, that should wipe the fat turrets from the meta.

So what I'm saying is that the ships you call inefficient are simply the ones balanced in line with how the game was intended to play, and the ones that are efficient are balanced with children that smear ice cream on their faces in mind that like to pretend it takes skill to see that your fat turret is in a bad spot and boost away to a good one.

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

Curious. How about when you give them Integrated Astromech and a R2 unit? Do they fare better?

 

T-65 + R2 + IA basically has a 3/2/3/3 statline (a better approximation is actually 3/2/2/4), at a cost of 22 points, so T-65 Rookie + R2 + IA jousting is roughly:

 

20 * (1 + 1/24) / 22 = 94.7%

 

... which puts it a hair above the B-wing. So BBBBZ could be swapped for XXXXZ. It's not earth shattering, but it should be OK. And you get green hard 2's until you need to eject the droid into space to cancel a crit or your last hull.

 

 

The T-70 X-wing is actually less efficient from a stat line efficiency perspective (jousting value).

That would be without auto-thrusters. If autothrusters were to theoretically fire off how would that effect the jousting value?

 

Not to mention autothrusters on 2 agility against TLT attacks.

 

 

The generic T-70 jousting value is low enough that autothrusters won't be able to save it. It certainly makes it a lot better vs turrets, but...

 

Boost on the T-70 is nice, but will not be enough to make the PS2 viable. This is easy to predict because the PS1 TIE Interceptor also has boost, and has a better jousting efficiency of ~90%, but is basically extinct now.

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

I found this out the hard way.  They're not nearly as good as I thought.  Though the extra moves are still annoying.  

The generics are point inefficient.  The high PS Poe is just annoying as all hell.  Hard to kill, lots of moves, fits into 2 ship builds.

 

I will say this though, Xwing greens + 3straight green suck.  Yuck.   

[Joe Boss Red Seven 11,293]

You know... i used to draw neat pictures of monsters, heroes and their girls, and all kinds of cool space ships in math class.

 

I have never played a game of X-Wing that I did not enjoy.

 

I know all I need to know bout dat math... prolly why I have one of the largest FFG X-Wing Miniatures Collections in this community.

 

There is WAYyyy more to being a great X-Winger than knowing the math.

[Razgriz25thinf 1,430]

 

Curious. How about when you give them Integrated Astromech and a R2 unit? Do they fare better?

 

T-65 + R2 + IA basically has a 3/2/3/3 statline (a better approximation is actually 3/2/2/4), at a cost of 22 points, so T-65 Rookie + R2 + IA jousting is roughly:

 

20 * (1 + 1/24) / 22 = 94.7%

 

... which puts it a hair above the B-wing. So BBBBZ could be swapped for XXXXZ. It's not earth shattering, but it should be OK. And you get green hard 2's until you need to eject the droid into space to cancel a crit or your last hull.

 

 

The T-70 X-wing is actually less efficient from a stat line efficiency perspective (jousting value).

That would be without auto-thrusters. If autothrusters were to theoretically fire off how would that effect the jousting value?

 

Not to mention autothrusters on 2 agility against TLT attacks.

 

 

The generic T-70 jousting value is low enough that autothrusters won't be able to save it. It certainly makes it a lot better vs turrets, but...

 

Boost on the T-70 is nice, but will not be enough to make the PS2 viable. This is easy to predict because the PS1 TIE Interceptor also has boost, and has a better jousting efficiency of ~90%, but is basically extinct now.

 

Much like the E-Wing, the T-70's beauty lies not in it's jousting efficiency, but a lot of the things MathWing doesn't calculate. PS2 likely won't see much play, agreed, but PS4 and up definitely have their spot in lots of builds. 

 

Truth is that the E-Wing is significantly less efficient than a T-70, and while a T-70 can't do all the things an E-Wing can, it can certainly fill it's role as a cheaper alternative high-performance fighter while still being able to hold it's own with some good upgrade potential at the PS4+ level. More of a knife-fighter, less of a basic jouster. 

 

Don't get me wrong, i respect MathWing a whole ton and i use it as a handy reference, but on this particular case i feel like all it can accurately represent is naked generics. The T-70 clearly isn't meant to be flown naked, much like an E-Wing in this case just more points efficient.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Razgriz25thinf

[AldousSnow 822]

Yawn.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I know all I need to know bout dat math...

Math is the language we use to describe the universe. There is no one in the world who knows enough math, because there's an infinite amount to know.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Vorpal Sword