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jkokura

Would Veteran Instincts still be useful if it raised Pilot Skill by 1?

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Everyone seems to be of the opinion that if it was a 1 PS increase it would be useless. That's in line with other 1 cost EPTs and 1 cost upgrades as a whole. Adrenaline Rush turns a red maneuver white for /one turn/. Lightning Reflexes allows you to do some crazy thing like a one hard Segnor's for a /single turn/. Wired allows you to reroll focuses on attack if you're already stressed. Intel Agent allows you to look at one dial after dials have already been set so it's usually irrelevant.

The one cost upgrades should only effect your list by providing about 1 point of value. VI has way too much of an effect for a 1 point upgrade.

It probably would be useless- VI is good for passing certain breakpoints and it doesn't pass very many with a 1 PS increase.  Keep in mind that it's competing with strong EPTs like predator, PtL, and Lone Wolf for the aces it's on.  I don't think Scum Kath is all that great at PS7 and she still wouldn't be great at PS8.  She needs to outbid practically everyone to keep them off her side for how expensive she is to fit out.

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Consider that when VI was released, there was a costing formula involved with ships: 1pt per point of pilot skill, 1pt for the EPT slot. When VI was created, it was in effect 1pt per point of pilot skill. 29pt Luke is PS10. Subtract 8 from both pilot skill and what do you get? PS2 at 21 points.

I think Decoy should have been 1pt like VI (Decoy has a built in setback and VI doesn't, Decoy is newer, yet Decoy costs more?). However, VI's appropriately priced for what it does: you jump up two points in pilot skill in exchange for your EPT slot. The question with VI is should it exist at all? Personally, I like the depth it adds, especially to ships like IG-88 where the EPT slot has some serious competition.

Edited by Blue Five

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I have always had mixed feelings about VI.  Sometimes I think its a good, solid upgrade.  Other times I think it changes the game to much (I think this was during the Phantom is king days).

 

I think we would see it a lot less if it was just +1, but I think it would be more in line with the other 1 point Elites.

 

Let me add another question to the thread.  Would people still take it if it +2 PS and costed 2 points?  I think it would be a more nuanced choice if that was the case, but I still think you would see it more than if it just gave you +1 PS for 1.

 

 

Decoy should've been cheaper than Swarm Tactics to make it more attractive.

 

I think the range 1-2 instead of just the range 1 was suppose to make up the gap in points.  Its a shame, I have never had an opportunity to use Decoy.  Being able to manipulate your shooting order is very handy.

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VI deserves a place in the game because it creates a level on uncertainty and risk in list building.  Removing VI would weaken the game-before-the-game that is list building.  Knowing for certain the pilot skill of each and every potential opponent would make game-planning more certain.  When does certainty become boring?  That's an individual preference I guess.

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You sound pretty bitter that Soontir is sometimes not the highest PS on the board.

 

 

Um, what? My complaint is that VI allows pilots to be out of the step where the devs had balanced them to primarily be. It has nothing to do with the PS of Soontir Fel.

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VI is only useful in games where it pushes you beyond the PS threshold of your opponent. This means that it's not useful unless you routinely face ships with that higher PS, and also that it becomes more useful the higher your own PS (for instance, going from PS 5 to 7 only gives you an edge against ships of PS 6 or less, while going from PS 9 to 11 gives you an edge against all ships; but at the same time, the higher your starting PS, the less likely you'll actually need VI).

 

The result? VI would basically be half as useful for the same cost, which makes it overpriced. The only ships that would really benefit would be PS 9 and maybe PS 8 ships, and most of them would rather spend the EPT slot on something else (like Predator).

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Everyone seems to be of the opinion that if it was a 1 PS increase it would be useless. That's in line with other 1 cost EPTs and 1 cost upgrades as a whole. Adrenaline Rush turns a red maneuver white for /one turn/. Lightning Reflexes allows you to do some crazy thing like a one hard Segnor's for a /single turn/. Wired allows you to reroll focuses on attack if you're already stressed. Intel Agent allows you to look at one dial after dials have already been set so it's usually irrelevant.

The one cost upgrades should only effect your list by providing about 1 point of value. VI has way too much of an effect for a 1 point upgrade.

Just because something would no longer be top tier doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. Bringing it down to the level of most other upgrades in the game would be fine.

Unless your ship is destroyed, the single-use EPTs are highly likely to be used in a game. You can always expect to see a situation where you want to turn a red maneuver into a white, or do a crazy Lightning Reflexes move. Those benefits are easy to engineer.

 

Veteran Instincts has a highly mercurial effect. It only really comes into play when facing down ace pilots. Against anything with a Pilot Skill of 3 or lower (four TLTs, BBBBZ, TIE or Z95 swarms), it's largely useless and you would have been better of investing that point into something like Crackshot or Adrenaline Rush.

 

Even against aces, it's not always helpful. VI doesn't help IG88 deal with a Vader/Soontir/Palpmobile list, or Fat Han + 3 Z-95s.

 

Its most reliable use is really for bringing the sub-ace pilot to the same PS as the ace. These would be things like bringing Vessary up to PS8 so he can shoot before Rexlar, or bringing Keyan up to PS9 so he can shoot the Rebel Captive before Wedge does.

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Everyone who wants to point out that most ships pay 1 point for +1 PS on their generics should take a look the cheapest ships out there.  Both the TIE Fighter and Z-95 get +2 PS for 1 point.  If that is so broken why don't you see more of the 13 point ships flying around instead of the 12 point versions?

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Everyone who wants to point out that most ships pay 1 point for +1 PS on their generics should take a look the cheapest ships out there.  Both the TIE Fighter and Z-95 get +2 PS for 1 point.  If that is so broken why don't you see more of the 13 point ships flying around instead of the 12 point versions?

But Obsidians and Talas and Black Sun Soldiers DO see lots of play, and did even before the TLT meta made the PS bid really great.

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Everyone who wants to point out that most ships pay 1 point for +1 PS on their generics should take a look the cheapest ships out there.  Both the TIE Fighter and Z-95 get +2 PS for 1 point.  If that is so broken why don't you see more of the 13 point ships flying around instead of the 12 point versions?

But Obsidians and Talas and Black Sun Soldiers DO see lots of play, and did even before the TLT meta made the PS bid really great.

 

 

So are they broken ships?  If people want to say that VI is broken at +2 PS for 1 point and the EPT slot then getting that without occupying a valuable upgrade slot must make them some of the strongest ships in the game.

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VI deserves a place in the game because it creates a level on uncertainty and risk in list building.  Removing VI would weaken the game-before-the-game that is list building.  Knowing for certain the pilot skill of each and every potential opponent would make game-planning more certain.  When does certainty become boring?  That's an individual preference I guess.

I'd counter that it has too much of an effect, and uncertainty when list building is bad for the game because you can often just lose in the list building phase because you had a bad matchup.

I prefer games to come down to flying ability. When people say that if the two ship meta wasn't around we'd just have a bunch of BBBB(Z) lists and swarms as if that was a bad thing, I see that as ideal. Upgrades and PS bidding were more nuanced. Not just, "Haha I have VI and Rebel Captive on RAC good luck with your Phantom!"

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VI is really good in the once-and-future high-PS metagame created by Han, Chiraneau, Soontir, and Whisper.

 

In the old Swarm and Mini-Swarm metagame, it was a wasted point.  In the emerging TLT spam-shaped metagame, it's fairly wasted, also.

 

If the metagame ever gets to a place where mid-PS ships with EPTs (in multiple factions) are dominant, VI becomes a meta-gamble (and will be at its most interesting).

Hence the whine-fest that is "the T-65 is underpowered"!.

 

The mid-level pilots of all factions are pretty meh. But they're less iconic so no one cares.

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VI is amazing for ACD phantoms but that's just because of the way they did Phantoms.  If Phantoms got shot at by most of the field before they could cloak, they would certainly have to have more base defense because it's really weak without it- even with it it's still very possible to push through damage on a Phantom.

 

Also VI RAC is one of the less threatening RACs because of his greater action dependence attack-wise.  I will agree that most EPTs are trash but that's no reason to make the rest trash.

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VI is also notable for being the only EPT that can still be permanently eliminated through a critical hit. You can no longer lose your EPT slot with the new damage deck, but you can still have your pilot skill reduced to 0 through a Damaged Cockpit.

 

You can regain access to Push the Limit by repairing your Damaged Sensor Array. You can clear the stress from a Thrust Control Fire. But you're never getting that pilot skill back.

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Well it is worth pointing out most generic pilots pay two points for +2 pilot skill first off. Small world, I was wondering about this last week as it pertained to IG-88 and Dash. For a point, IG gets to leap frog Dash and completely reverse the maneuverability advantage he has. And to catch up Dash has to spend the same point and the same slot to leap frog him back to the top, but then is stuck left out of one of his favorite builds. It would be more interesting to me if that point you spent had most of its efficiency just catching you up to the next level making an initiative bid important. But at the same time VI is really good from a design standpoint for its ability to reach down and bring lower pilot skill ships into a higher pilot skill meta.

Short answer, I would have liked it more if it had been two points as is, or still one point for only a boost of one. But I can kind of see why they did it this way instead, barring that it was designed fairly long ago and it's ramifications on the game continue to grow.

I find it kind of funny that shield upgrade or engine upgrade is maxed out to 4 points for a 3 agility ship or a large base ship. Yet for pilot skill upgrades they went with the lowest score by 1 point for +2 pilot skill which is only 1 point on TIE fighters, Z-95 Headhunters, and MA-3 Scyks.

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