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jkokura

Would Veteran Instincts still be useful if it raised Pilot Skill by 1?

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I'm wondering if VI, one of the strongest EPTs, would be as strong if it wasn't raising pilot skill by 2. Raising by 2 can have a dramatic effect. Pilots at skill 8 (like Luke) now go to 10, above Han, Wedge, Talonbane and company. It can mean a Green squadron pilot can be raised to 5, same as Chewie, Leebo and some others.

 

If it only raise Luke up to 9, or Han up to 10, or moving backwards, those few generics that can take an EPT up just one more Skill Point...

I still see it as strong in the case, but almost like it's a little more fair. Thematically, Luke was a very good pilot, but he wasn't better than Wedge. Mostly he was good because he had the force... And should anyone get up above the very best pilots? Admittedly, those best pilots stay as the best by also using VI...

 

Anyone else have thoughts?

Jacob

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Well it is worth pointing out most generic pilots pay two points for +2 pilot skill first off. Small world, I was wondering about this last week as it pertained to IG-88 and Dash. For a point, IG gets to leap frog Dash and completely reverse the maneuverability advantage he has. And to catch up Dash has to spend the same point and the same slot to leap frog him back to the top, but then is stuck left out of one of his favorite builds. It would be more interesting to me if that point you spent had most of its efficiency just catching you up to the next level making an initiative bid important. But at the same time VI is really good from a design standpoint for its ability to reach down and bring lower pilot skill ships into a higher pilot skill meta.

Short answer, I would have liked it more if it had been two points as is, or still one point for only a boost of one. But I can kind of see why they did it this way instead, barring that it was designed fairly long ago and it's ramifications on the game continue to grow.

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I think it would still get taken at 2pts as most people using it are on a 2-3pt Init bid as well anyways. I think it's great as is.

What I would like to see is a 1pt version that gives a +1 boost and another minor advantage so there is a little variety in that spot. Some 7-9 would take a +1 and other benefit. It would also bring the PS war down from 9-11 to 8-10 or maybe even 7-10 and that would be another good thing for the game.

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Making it 2 points, or making it only boost PS by 1, would kill it. The ability to leapfrog pilot skills and shift from hunted to hunter is the main thing that makes it worth taking for one point. IG88 wouldn't care if he can bump up to PS7, as that would only let him face down Dash Rendar. He absolutely loved bumping to PS8 to bring himself on par with your Chiraneaus, Corran Horns and Boba Fetts.

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VI is really good in the once-and-future high-PS metagame created by Han, Chiraneau, Soontir, and Whisper.

 

In the old Swarm and Mini-Swarm metagame, it was a wasted point.  In the emerging TLT spam-shaped metagame, it's fairly wasted, also.

 

If the metagame ever gets to a place where mid-PS ships with EPTs (in multiple factions) are dominant, VI becomes a meta-gamble (and will be at its most interesting).

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The usefulness of VI fluctuates quite a bit given the meta it wasn't much cop pre wave four and now our tlt overlords have arrived it's worth is again lowered as y wing generics are low ps.

People only moaned because VI made whisper such a threat.

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I also think it's fine, I'm just curious if it's strength lies in the +2 PS addition or it's low cost, or what. Currently it's an A/A- level EPT. If it were +1 PS, I'd give it a C+/B- in terms of strength. Still good in certain situations, but not quite as good as it is as written.

Just a thought for conversations sake.

 

Jacob

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Considering that its on the list of EPT's that should have never been printed, if it was only a 1 point increase, well it should have still never been printed.

Honestly, it's only become Broken in the advent of the Phantom, which drove Mobility into the forefront of many lists' thinking... ironically leading to the dominance of Turretation.

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I don't like VI.

As with other power upgrades, I don't mind it on Black Squadrons and Green Squadrons and whatnot. It's not obnoxious there.

But with the 2 ship meta games are won or lost in the list building phase by the inclusion of this single 1 point upgrade, that's ******* insane. It has way more influence on the game than other one point upgrades.

Seeing as how a lot of generics pay 1 point for each 1 PS jump, it should be a 1 PS jump for one point. As this would make VI less able to leapfrog PS it would be taken less often and you'd see a little more variety in high PS aces, at least amongst the named Phantoms. Or it should have just never been printed or had some other sort of restriction like, 'if your printed PS value is above 6 you cannot equip this card".

It doesn't make sense thematically either. What do you mean Han Solo has Veteran Instincts? He already has the instincts of a veteran!

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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Is Veteran Instincts strong?  It all depends on the metagame as it can range from rather nice to have to COMPLETELY worthless and actually be detrimental to a squadron.  Cutting the effectiveness goes and reduces the places it actually is useful and increases the times it is a waste of points.

 

If it raised PS 1 point for 1 point the only times it becomes useful is when it can force a PS TIE on a ship just above it or break a tie with an equal PS ship.  The problem there is that Initiative can already dictate order which can make those situations less useful.

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I like VI, but it's absolutely a gamble.  Either's it's completely useless or it's a game changer, and personally I kinda find that fun.  

 

Really, it depends on the pilot.  Like with Imp Boba right now, I'd be hard-pressed to ever put any other EPT on him.  Being able to use his ability at PS10 is just tooooo handy.  But then you got Turr Phennir: you could push him to PS9 and insure that get your shot out before a lot of other pilots, which is huge with his ability, but against low PS ships it'd be a waste... and you could instead take PTL and have combat phase PTL shenanigans.

 

I think it's pretty much where an EPT should be at the moment, though, and it'll only become more "balanced" as the meta continues to grow in diversity.

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Considering that its on the list of EPT's that should have never been printed, if it was only a 1 point increase, well it should have still never been printed.

Honestly, it's only become Broken in the advent of the Phantom, which drove Mobility into the forefront of many lists' thinking... ironically leading to the dominance of Turretation.
But the changes to the Phantom have eliminated even that. And with the rise of generic TLT swarms, it can be wasted points. Oh no, you pushed your Pilot Skill even higher above my Thugs. Whatever shall I do?

It also has a downside: the higher your Pilot Skill, the more likely it is that other ships can block you. Vader with VI shoots before anyone not buffed by Roark, but he can also be blocked by VI Corran Horn.

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I don't like VI at all and think it was a mistake to add it to the game. It affects the game too strongly by being able to push pilots to places where they shouldn't be and adds unnecessary complexity to the PS bidding war. It also means certain pilots have to have a PS that is perhaps lower than it canonically should be or that the devs might want it to be to stop it being broken by the addition of VI. Look at Phantoms... the highest PS Phantom we will ever see is 7, because VI + ACD. Without VI, the Phantom would never have been as meta-defining (meta-breaking?) as it was. IG88... my belief is that he is PS 6 for the sole reason that PS 7 would be broken with VI. 

 

It's affecting how the devs can assign PS and has to constantly be accounted for every time they want to release a pilot with an Elite slot. They have to double-balance, once at the PS they release it at and again at PS+2. To me, that's broken. If I could remove one card from the game completely, it would be VI.

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I don't like VI at all and think it was a mistake to add it to the game. It affects the game too strongly by being able to push pilots to places where they shouldn't be and adds unnecessary complexity to the PS bidding war. It also means certain pilots have to have a PS that is perhaps lower than it canonically should be or that the devs might want it to be to stop it being broken by the addition of VI. Look at Phantoms... the highest PS Phantom we will ever see is 7, because VI + ACD. Without VI, the Phantom would never have been as meta-defining (meta-breaking?) as it was. IG88... my belief is that he is PS 6 for the sole reason that PS 7 would be broken with VI. 

 

It's affecting how the devs can assign PS and has to constantly be accounted for every time they want to release a pilot with an Elite slot. They have to double-balance, once at the PS they release it at and again at PS+2. To me, that's broken. If I could remove one card from the game completely, it would be VI.

 

You sound pretty bitter that Soontir is sometimes not the highest PS on the board.

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Everyone seems to be of the opinion that if it was a 1 PS increase it would be useless. That's in line with other 1 cost EPTs and 1 cost upgrades as a whole. Adrenaline Rush turns a red maneuver white for /one turn/. Lightning Reflexes allows you to do some crazy thing like a one hard Segnor's for a /single turn/. Wired allows you to reroll focuses on attack if you're already stressed. Intel Agent allows you to look at one dial after dials have already been set so it's usually irrelevant.

The one cost upgrades should only effect your list by providing about 1 point of value. VI has way too much of an effect for a 1 point upgrade.

Just because something would no longer be top tier doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. Bringing it down to the level of most other upgrades in the game would be fine.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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