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TheRealStarkiller

Thoughts on the Punisher

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You want to run missiles/torps on Redline that do not have an inherent way to deal with blank results.

Clusters, Proton, Plasma, Fletchette, and Assault are the best options. Double Clusters has the highest damage potential, but you lose the range 3 projectile. Right now, Plasmas are my current favorite for 2nd projectile. It is the cheapest 4 atk projectile, and against anything with 4 or more shields, it is equal or better than protons.

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You want to run missiles/torps on Redline that do not have an inherent way to deal with blank results.

 

Concussion Missiles.

In this case, Proton Torps and Concussion missiles are exactly the same math - wise except Proton Torps gives a crit.

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You want to run missiles/torps on Redline that do not have an inherent way to deal with blank results.

 

Concussion Missiles.

In this case, Proton Torps and Concussion missiles are exactly the same math - wise except Proton Torps gives a crit.

 

 

I am aware of this. With FCS it should be not be too difficult to have situations where you have two target locks on an enemy ship in your arc and a focus token. In this case Concussions should be able to deliver 4 hits most of the time.

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For a few pieces of utility ordnance the TIE bomber's generics are the way to go. You can get a decent TIE bomber toolbox for 23 points (EM, Flechette and Ion Pulse) and upgrading that to say, Assault Missiles and Plasma Torpedoes is still only 25. Cheap minelayer? 21 points for Proximity Mine and EM, 22 for Conner Nets instead.

A TIE punisher is a 5 point investment in the switch up, and as you said, it's even more points to take advantage of those extra slots. The basic bomber above alone would cost you 28 points on a Punisher and that's without a System Upgrade to justify the switch up) and if you're pouring that many points into a ship, you might as well get Redline.

 

The TIE punisher is in many ways a TIE Bomber Aces blister. Its strengths lie in Redline and Deathrain.

Edited by Blue Five

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For a few pieces of utility ordnance the TIE bomber's generics are the way to go. You can get a decent TIE bomber toolbox for 23 points (EM, Flechette and Ion Pulse) and upgrading that to say, Assault Missiles and Plasma Torpedoes is still only 25. Cheap minelayer? 21 points for Proximity Mine and EM, 22 for Conner Nets instead.

A TIE punisher is a 5 point investment in the switch up, and as you said, it's even more points to take advantage of those extra slots. The basic bomber above alone would cost you 28 points on a Punisher and that's without a System Upgrade to justify the switch up) and if you're pouring that many points into a ship, you might as well get Redline.

 

The TIE punisher is in many ways a TIE Bomber Aces blister. Its strengths lie in Redline and Deathrain.

 

I agree that the Tie Bomber generics are preferable to the Tie Punisher generics in every fashion.  I was still just trying to come up with SOMETHING that might be usable.  Maybe someone doesn't own the Tie Bomber (I pity the fool)?

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For a few pieces of utility ordnance the TIE bomber's generics are the way to go. You can get a decent TIE bomber toolbox for 23 points (EM, Flechette and Ion Pulse) and upgrading that to say, Assault Missiles and Plasma Torpedoes is still only 25. Cheap minelayer? 21 points for Proximity Mine and EM, 22 for Conner Nets instead.

A TIE punisher is a 5 point investment in the switch up, and as you said, it's even more points to take advantage of those extra slots. The basic bomber above alone would cost you 28 points on a Punisher and that's without a System Upgrade to justify the switch up) and if you're pouring that many points into a ship, you might as well get Redline.

 

The TIE punisher is in many ways a TIE Bomber Aces blister. Its strengths lie in Redline and Deathrain.

 

I agree that the Tie Bomber generics are preferable to the Tie Punisher generics in every fashion.  I was still just trying to come up with SOMETHING that might be usable.  Maybe someone doesn't own the Tie Bomber (I pity the fool)?

 

 

Thats exactly my attempt to. And thats the reason why I think a free EM is the way to go for Punishers. Still far from broken imho.

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Does the Punisher need generics that outdo or match the TIE bomber? Sometimes a ship isn't attractive at low pilot skill, like the TIE interceptor.

 

The generic Punisher isn't bad, its just that all its low cost tricks are done better by other ships and you might as well turn it into an elite if you're loading it up. Generics tend to lend themselves to slimmer loadouts, and the Punisher competes much less effectively with the bomber when it's less heavily armed.

 

As a health brick, it's playing the Lambda Shuttle's game, trading an attack die and a hit point for a small base and a better dial. The TIE Punisher's bombing trick (outside Deathrain) is Adv Sensor boosting into an AoE bomb, and AoE bombs are better at higher pilot skill. As an Accuracy Corrector ship, the TIE advanced is cheaper for the same effect. As an ordnance boat or minelayer the TIE bomber wins by being five points cheaper for the same boom.

Yes, you could make it a Health Brick, Accuracy Corrector ship, ordnance boat and minelayer all at the same time, but then you might as well multiply the strength of those upgrades by making it Redline or Deathrain.

To get the most out of the Punisher you need to kit it out, and you might as well go for one of the excellent named pilots if you're doing so. Same reason you don't see tricked out Wild Space Fringers.

Edited by Blue Five

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For a few pieces of utility ordnance the TIE bomber's generics are the way to go. You can get a decent TIE bomber toolbox for 23 points (EM, Flechette and Ion Pulse) and upgrading that to say, Assault Missiles and Plasma Torpedoes is still only 25. Cheap minelayer? 21 points for Proximity Mine and EM, 22 for Conner Nets instead.

A TIE punisher is a 5 point investment in the switch up, and as you said, it's even more points to take advantage of those extra slots. The basic bomber above alone would cost you 28 points on a Punisher and that's without a System Upgrade to justify the switch up) and if you're pouring that many points into a ship, you might as well get Redline.

 

The TIE punisher is in many ways a TIE Bomber Aces blister. Its strengths lie in Redline and Deathrain.

 

I agree that the Tie Bomber generics are preferable to the Tie Punisher generics in every fashion.  I was still just trying to come up with SOMETHING that might be usable.  Maybe someone doesn't own the Tie Bomber (I pity the fool)?

 

 

Here is my plan with two generic Punishers and two generic bombers:

 

Cutlass Squadron Pilot x 2 + Accuracy Corrector + EM + Plasma Torpedoes

Scimitar Squadron Pilot x 2 + EM + Proximity Mines

 

Scimitars either mine the traffic lanes or drop them on opposing ships, the Cutlass Squadron acts as the bouncer/enforcer and provides the covering fire for the bombers.  Accuracy Corrector is there for added insurance that the bombs are at least going to try and get to points of damage through and give a little bit of jousting ability (my red dice have been failing me lately this is my insurance against them being bad).

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Does the Punisher need generics that outdo or match the TIE bomber? Sometimes a ship isn't attractive at low pilot skill, like the TIE interceptor.

 

The generic Punisher isn't bad, its just that all its low cost tricks are done better by other ships and you might as well turn it into an elite if you're loading it up. Generics tend to lend themselves to slimmer loadouts, and the Punisher competes much less effectively with the bomber when it's less heavily armed.

 

As a health brick, it's playing the Lambda Shuttle's game, trading an attack die and a hit point for a small base and a better dial. The TIE Punisher's bombing trick (outside Deathrain) is Adv Sensor boosting into an AoE bomb, and AoE bombs are better at higher pilot skill. As an Accuracy Corrector ship, the TIE advanced is cheaper for the same effect. As an ordnance boat or minelayer the TIE bomber wins by being five points cheaper for the same boom.

Yes, you could make it a Health Brick, Accuracy Corrector ship, ordnance boat and minelayer all at the same time, but then you might as well multiply the strength of those upgrades by making it Redline or Deathrain.

To get the most out of the Punisher you need to kit it out, and you might as well go for one of the excellent named pilots if you're doing so. Same reason you don't see tricked out Wild Space Fringers.

 

You forgot the FCS + Missile trick

 

But right. In the end its about this or the AS + mine/bomb trick.

 

The main roles are already taken by other ships.

 

For my taste the PS2 generic should not exeed 30 points in total.

So its 21 + FCS + EM = 25, leaving 5 points for ordnance, and thats just not enough to deal damage. It should be at least 7 points to get Plasma Torps + Clusters

As a Bomber/Minelayer its 21 + AS + EM = 26, leaving 4 points for mines and bombs. Thats again a hair too low. for 5 Points you would get Prox Mines and Seismics.

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For a few pieces of utility ordnance the TIE bomber's generics are the way to go. You can get a decent TIE bomber toolbox for 23 points (EM, Flechette and Ion Pulse) and upgrading that to say, Assault Missiles and Plasma Torpedoes is still only 25. Cheap minelayer? 21 points for Proximity Mine and EM, 22 for Conner Nets instead.

A TIE punisher is a 5 point investment in the switch up, and as you said, it's even more points to take advantage of those extra slots. The basic bomber above alone would cost you 28 points on a Punisher and that's without a System Upgrade to justify the switch up) and if you're pouring that many points into a ship, you might as well get Redline.

 

The TIE punisher is in many ways a TIE Bomber Aces blister. Its strengths lie in Redline and Deathrain.

 

This I actually disagree with.

 

But I must preface with, Scimitar Squadron Pilot with missile/torp ordnance was never a great/reliable ship to begin with. I played a lot of games with them in many forms, and moving away from it netted me more wins than sticking with it, so the expecting the low PS Punisher to suddenly become amazing is a lot to ask!

 

Now, reasons that the low PS Punisher might ACTUALLY be better than a Scimitar?

1. Sensor Slot for FCS means you can reliably set up TL+F shots, which is the best way to make Ordnance reliable and worth its cost.

2. Having 1 agility instead of 2 agility means you aren't reliant on having Focus to make your high hull actually feel like high hull. Taking the TL action on a Scimitar means no reliable defense, which could mean death in a single round.

3. Shields feel like a godsend when so many games have blundered due to some higher PS ship dealing 1 crit to a Scimitar, like Blinded Pilot, right off the bat. Though, the new damage deck at least removed Munitions Failure, so this is less likely.

4. I would argue Boost is better than Barrel Roll, especially since FCS lets the ship actually USE a movement action and still fire missiles. Boost means you can take one shot, then 3 Turn + Boost or something like that to re-position. By golly I had always wished Bombers had native boost, always made them feel like great ships. Feels like you can actually play the positional game, rather than getting OUT positioned.

5. Boost makes this ship a MUCH better Bomb and Mine dropper. You can actually change angle on the previous round, unlike the bomber, which makes hunting aces with Mines much easier. I always felt like I could never get the right angle with a Bomber, but haven't felt like that since using the Punisher.

 

Cost is the only real downside to choosing the Punisher over the Scimitar, and honestly, it's only 5 pts. It DOES mean you have to put the Punisher alongside different support, not necessarily lesser, but points will line up differently. Can't, say run Howl + 5 AP alongside Scimitar + EM + Conner Net, but you can fit the Punisher snuggly next to 3 AccC Advanced, stuff like that.

 

So I'll re-iterate, low PS Ordnance toting ships have always felt underwhelming. The low PS Punishers, at least, seem to fix SOME of the issues.

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I ran a standard 33 point missile boat cutlass last night (FCS, EM, cluster, concussion) and I really enjoyed it! I chose to fly it alongside a 50 point Fettigator with proton bombs, and Night Beast with TIE mk. 2.

 

The cutlass did a great job of slowrolling and throwing missiles, and against a rebel swarm (KAZZZ) it was surprising how long the cutlass stayed alive. I think the biggest point that people are overlooking with the generics is FCS. That is why you take a Punisher instead of a bomber. I was able to K turn, stay stressed, and I was still firing modified cluster missiles! That is a huge improvement over a scimitar, and one I would gladly invest in. If I am looking for cheap control with Flechette torps and IPM, I will use the bomber with MFS every time. If I want a standalone threat that can put up sustained 4 dice attacks, I'm going to take a cutlass. I haven't tried bombing with them yet, but I don't know if a cutlass is cheap enough to warrant taking instead of Deathrain.

 

TLDR: FCS makes the cutlass a solid investment over a scimitar as a missile/torp carrier. Scimitars are easier to give multiple roles (missile, bomb, EM) for less points.

 

Ninja'd by phil0

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Cost is the only real downside to choosing the Punisher over the Scimitar, and honestly, it's only 5 pts. It DOES mean you have to put the Punisher alongside different support, not necessarily lesser, but points will line up differently. Can't, say run Howl + 5 AP alongside Scimitar + EM + Conner Net, but you can fit the Punisher snuggly next to 3 AccC Advanced, stuff like that.

 

So I'll re-iterate, low PS Ordnance toting ships have always felt underwhelming. The low PS Punishers, at least, seem to fix SOME of the issues.

 

 

I would even say you start out with 7-8 points more, because you want to have that system. To me thats the only real reason why to take a PS2 Punisher over a PS2 Bomber. And I think BR is even better on an ordnance craft. That saied, unless you could do the nasty AS Boost + Bomb trick. Besides that in my opinion BR is better for positioning and evading obstacles in your way. If you want to flank, boost is better then BR for your approach. But in combat, BR is so much better on low PS ships.

From this point of view I pay 7 points for a FCS and 8 points for AS + the mandatory 2 points for EM, because you dont want to have a one trick pony which is that expensive.

 

Look what the rebels get for about the same costs, speaking of a heavy hitter:

Blue Squadron Pilot [Fire-Control System, Heavy Laser Cannon] (31)

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Cost is the only real downside to choosing the Punisher over the Scimitar, and honestly, it's only 5 pts. It DOES mean you have to put the Punisher alongside different support, not necessarily lesser, but points will line up differently. Can't, say run Howl + 5 AP alongside Scimitar + EM + Conner Net, but you can fit the Punisher snuggly next to 3 AccC Advanced, stuff like that.

 

So I'll re-iterate, low PS Ordnance toting ships have always felt underwhelming. The low PS Punishers, at least, seem to fix SOME of the issues.

 

 

I would even say you start out with 7-8 points more, because you want to have that system. To me thats the only real reason why to take a PS2 Punisher over a PS2 Bomber. And I think BR is even better on an ordnance craft. That saied, unless you could do the nasty AS Boost + Bomb trick. Besides that in my opinion BR is better for positioning and evading obstacles in your way. If you want to flank, boost is better then BR for your approach. But in combat, BR is so much better on low PS ships.

From this point of view I pay 7 points for a FCS and 8 points for AS + the mandatory 2 points for EM, because you dont want to have a one trick pony which is that expensive.

 

Look what the rebels get for about the same costs, speaking of a heavy hitter:

Blue Squadron Pilot [Fire-Control System, Heavy Laser Cannon] (31)

 

 

I feel like imperials are generally outmatched by rebels :(

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