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TheRealStarkiller

Thoughts on the Punisher

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I'm just thinking here. 

 

Some solid ideas in there! I don't like the idea of Sensor Jammer as much just because it cuts into my offence potential, but StratN8 upthread put SJs and ATs on a pair of Cutlasses and that seems like it would make them stupid-durable. I'm in the FCS mindset for the same reason I use FCS Blue Bs, but Advanced Sensors work just fine as well. You're down to one action a round but you have better flexibility (although that becomes more useful as PS goes up). I'm a huge fan of the Accuracy Corrector in general, and strapping some Bombs and Mines to an AccC Punisher makes for a solid buy in my opinion.

 

The problem I think with both SJ and AT on the TIE/pu is that lone green die. Even with a Jammer flip and a 75% chance of an Evade, I really don't expect my TIE/pu to live drastically longer against TLTs or concentrated fire. The best option for the Punisher is arc dodging with Boost, even if it means disengaging for a turn or two. FCS, AS, and AccC all help with that a lot, and SJ doesn't bring anything to that table.

 

really quite like the idea of a lone Cutlass or Black Eight pilot as a control piece though, and not just because Imperials don't have a lot of control options. FCS, EMs, Flechette Torps, Ion Bombs, and you have something that's going to be focussed down early or ignored entirely, and either way you win: if Brobots or Fel are looking anxiously at the Punisher, try and use it to kite them around and flank with the rest of your list; if they ignore it in favour of whatever else you brought, you get a chance at a clutch stress and/or ion that can turn the tide of the game, much like you mentioned.

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I can see the punisher being awesome for narrative games where the group has an ordnance pool, rather than ordnance being an individual upgrade - but this is just for narratives. Tournament wise. Yeah, I agree with the EM - that it probably should be free/included in punishers price for like a point or some such. As it stands, it's virtually mandatory and takes up a torpedo slot.

 

Out of the two, and I full know they shouldn't be compared (punishers have awesome named, bombers are better platforms) I'd still take the bombers.

 

If the Punisher could be used to resupply friendly ships with torps and stuff ... just like the germans had milk cow submarines to resupply other submarines on duty with ammo :D

 

4 Gamma Bombers with Homers + EM will do the job on the 4yTLTs

 

 

The fact that the four Y's can't crit... I think the Gammas would win anyway.

 

 

I think the Gammas should be able to take out one of the Y's before they had the chance to shoot - because a Tie Bomber may survive 3 TLTs with a bit luck, but it will die against 4TLT.

If the Gammas manage to kill another Y in the next round, its a game.

 

How can we archive this with Punishers? I doubt we can. Unless its Redline supported by Interceptors with AT

 

 

very easy

 

Redline supported by ps 3+ mini-swarm (Zeta + ptl, 3 obsidians atm)

 

 

 

Redline is frail (B-wing stats, baby) but, like I said earlier, he's a glass cannon

 

difference between him and wedge/cobra, though, is that he has enough health and enough damage to trade into anything from a high PS ace to a fat ass PWT

 

 

I started playing this game with Wedge + Keyan + mini-swarm, so I think Redline gels with me on an instinctual level or something :P, but that's really the gist of it. Put fodder between the enemy and Redline; throw missiles into the enemy's face

 

if things go **** up, well then it's time to start pulling crazy maneuvers

 

12063793_10156055492000142_4079559869497

 

obstacles are your friends (Fire Control System lets you give so much less of a ****, it's wondeful)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Agree about how to fly it.  That's the 2nd part of making a list....developing a strategy.  That's the part that a lot of people fall down on or dismiss things as they don't get creative about how to use something. 

 

If you are using your Punisher as bait, you are also more free to use your Bombs.  Seismic doesn't require an action and if you are just going to run and boost, it's not a bad idea to leave something behind.  My only problem with Bombs becoming more viable is that people are expecting them more.  It's harder to catch them by surprise with it.

 

I also like the idea of going cheap with a control Punisher as.....it's cheap!  You can get a lot in your bag of tricks with EM and the cheap items.

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I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of a B8 (ha!) pilot using FCS, EMs, Ion Pulse Missiles, and Ion Bombs. If you can slap something with the IPMs at the right angle/distance, it's almost trivial to nail them with an Ion Bomb the following turn as well. So long as you were going past each other, that is. Otherwise I prefer the IPM->Ion->Bump with the Punisher->third turn Ion Bomb

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I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of a B8 (ha!) pilot using FCS, EMs, Ion Pulse Missiles, and Ion Bombs. If you can slap something with the IPMs at the right angle/distance, it's almost trivial to nail them with an Ion Bomb the following turn as well. So long as you were going past each other, that is. Otherwise I prefer the IPM->Ion->Bump with the Punisher->third turn Ion Bomb

 

Why get FCS with Ion Pulse Missiles?  You don't have to spend your TL to fire them.  It seems a bit of a waste for two missiles that don't require TL to fire.  Leave them off to make him cheap or go with Sensor Jammer.

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Why get FCS with Ion Pulse Missiles?  You don't have to spend your TL to fire them.  It seems a bit of a waste for two missiles that don't require TL to fire.  Leave them off to make him cheap or go with Sensor Jammer.

 

Honestly? Because it's a point cheaper than Accuracy Corrector. You're right about not blowing the Lock to fire the IPMs, but you still have to get a Lock in the first place. FCS does that for you, and helps when you have to 2-Turn or K-Turn. Plus now you can TL/F your IPMs for broader effectiveness, since AGI2-3 targets can be much harder to hit with them. And after you've emptied your chutes the FCS still helps your Primary attack. I really dislike leaving Sensor slots empty.

Edited by Tsiegtiez

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Still, if you are trying to go cheap, you can leave them off.  It's not a bad control ship then.  It just won't do too much after it fires it's load!  Just hope the rest of your list can dish out the damage while you cripple things.

 

What would go with that list?  Personally, I'm thinking a lot of Tie Fighters or something as once you know where something is going to be, you can surrounded it at R1 and fire away.  Then again, I always like to go with a lot of Tie Fighters....

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 Redline with Plasma Torpedos has the most devastating and most reliable R3 attack in the game. 

 

 

It's a problem of comparable value. For 40 points you can get 2 basic autoceptors. I'd argue that they are hugely better in terms of defence (esp in the TLT meta) while at the same time their R3 shot is 2x3 dice, likely with focus, as compared with the 4 dice plasma torp with TL. 

 

I could accept the fact that the punisher is defensively poor. Unfortunately, the damage it does for 40 points is not so awesome either. Cluster missiles on a 40 point ship really by themselves aren't anything remarkable since you're only getting what two basic 20 point ships already do. The question becomes then - what is the "added value" of the 40 point ship? Uber action economy? Supreme PS? Arc dodging? Turret? Very difficult to kill? Supports other ships? 

 

And the answer in case of PU is: none of the above. 

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 Redline with Plasma Torpedos has the most devastating and most reliable R3 attack in the game. 

 

 

It's a problem of comparable value. For 40 points you can get 2 basic autoceptors. I'd argue that they are hugely better in terms of defence (esp in the TLT meta) while at the same time their R3 shot is 2x3 dice, likely with focus, as compared with the 4 dice plasma torp with TL. 

 

I could accept the fact that the punisher is defensively poor. Unfortunately, the damage it does for 40 points is not so awesome either. Cluster missiles on a 40 point ship really by themselves aren't anything remarkable since you're only getting what two basic 20 point ships already do. The question becomes then - what is the "added value" of the 40 point ship? Uber action economy? Supreme PS? Arc dodging? Turret? Very difficult to kill? Supports other ships? 

 

And the answer in case of PU is: none of the above. 

 

 

 

1.) lol no autoceptors have pathetic defense even against TLTs. y-wings could probably just joust the alphas and come out ahead if you're really just on green dice to carry them

 

2.) cluster missiles on redline are not two basic attacks. The entire point of Redline is that he gets to modify ordnance that normally doesn't get modified. Redline can fire, and re-roll, both cluster missile attacks using his ability and FCS.

 

Adding onto that the fact that the utility of a defense token goes down against two attacks, and it's easy to see how damaging cluster missiles are.

 

also, Plasmas hit hard. They're essentially HLC shots that hit harder against well shielded ships

 

it takes about two ordnance shots to kill just about any small ship in the game, even phantoms :D

 

 

 

You take Redline against TLTs (oh no! one agility :o Nonsense, he and his mini-swarm will reliably kill a Y per turn) and against tech that would normally neuter your typical imperial ace (Rebel Captive being the crowning one, here)

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Still, if you are trying to go cheap, you can leave them off.  It's not a bad control ship then.  It just won't do too much after it fires it's load!  Just hope the rest of your list can dish out the damage while you cripple things.

 

What would go with that list?  Personally, I'm thinking a lot of Tie Fighters or something as once you know where something is going to be, you can surrounded it at R1 and fire away.  Then again, I always like to go with a lot of Tie Fighters....

 

Oh I always reach for the can of spam after I get ~40+ points into a build. Four Obsidians are eggs, bacon, and spam as far as I'm concerned. Alternatively three PtL Omega Pilots would be satisfying I think, or three Zetas with Comms Relays if you needed the extra three points.

 

I'm also a fan of the Lightning Shuttle (frankly the thing hits and flies like a P-38) with Advanced Sensors and Engine Upgrade for 28 points, plus a Tactician for an even 30. Two of those will eat TLTs for breakfast if you can play the range game well enough, and then just have Redline or your B8 control ship set up shots or flank.

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 Redline with Plasma Torpedos has the most devastating and most reliable R3 attack in the game. 

 

 

It's a problem of comparable value. For 40 points you can get 2 basic autoceptors. I'd argue that they are hugely better in terms of defence (esp in the TLT meta) while at the same time their R3 shot is 2x3 dice, likely with focus, as compared with the 4 dice plasma torp with TL. 

 

I could accept the fact that the punisher is defensively poor. Unfortunately, the damage it does for 40 points is not so awesome either. Cluster missiles on a 40 point ship really by themselves aren't anything remarkable since you're only getting what two basic 20 point ships already do. The question becomes then - what is the "added value" of the 40 point ship? Uber action economy? Supreme PS? Arc dodging? Turret? Very difficult to kill? Supports other ships? 

 

And the answer in case of PU is: none of the above. 

 

 

Well, for 40 points Redline gets Autothrusters too. You're not likely to hurt him much at R3, and against his Plasma Torpedos you're likely to take a hit, maybe two unless you evade, in which case you have a less than 50/50 chance of hitting him when you shoot back. Then you're suddenly at R1-2, and now your thrusters don't work anymore. That Interceptor will go down to a single Cluster Missile, unless you somehow roll 2-3 evades twice.

 

Also keep in mind that Redline can actually arc dodge you. If Redline is ever in a situation where he can boost past one Interceptor to shoot at the other, he will.

 

In any case, I stand by my earlier statement. The point of Redline is to deliver a devastating alpha strike to remove shields and/or tokens, so that your remaining ships can go to town on the target. He's not a scalpel, is a hammer, and Falcons, Outriders, Decimators, Hound's Teeth and Mirandas looks suspiciously like nails. If you're not going to use him like this you might as well go for a generic Punisher or more likely a Bomber.

 

Although, come to think of it, there is one other way I could consider using him: Alongside VI Vessery. Have Vessery HLC off the target's shields, and use Redline to deliver a super accurate Proton Torpedo, hopefully getting in a couple of crippling crits. Probably quite powerful, but I still think Redline Plasma into Advanced ATC is cheaper and more flexible.

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Here's what I just mixed together for shiggles.

 

==================
[unnamed Squadron]
==================

Click to change squadron details

100 points

Pilots
------

“Redline” (40)
TIE Punisher (27), Fire-Control System (2), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Cluster Missiles (4), Autothrusters (2)

Commander Alozen (27)
TIE Advanced (25), TIE/x1 (0), Calculation (1), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

Mauler Mithel (17)

Backstabber (16)

 

 

Basically I put them on the board as far from each other i can... So Backstabber and Redline are flankers (not together!) and Mithe/alozen are closer. While Redline is still an obvious target, Alozen with calc is something you don't want to ignore, and ignoring mithel and backstabber is always a mistake.

 

The reasons I picked Backstabber and mithel is relatively reliable high damage primaries. At a budget price!

Edited by DariusAPB

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Yes, Redline is is 9 hp for 40 pts. You have to subscribe to the manta of "the best defense is a superior offense". Redline survives by blowing stuff up first and it is best to run him with ships who can do the same thing.

As has been said, it is not hard to kill a ywing per turn or a large ship in 2 (Plasma Torps are so good vs large ships). Redline is weak to high PS arc dodgers, but everything has an Achilles heel.

Edited by Deadwolf

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Here's what I just mixed together for shiggles.

 

==================

[unnamed Squadron]

==================

Click to change squadron details

100 points

Pilots

------

“Redline” (40)

TIE Punisher (27), Fire-Control System (2), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Cluster Missiles (4), Autothrusters (2)

Commander Alozen (27)

TIE Advanced (25), TIE/x1 (0), Calculation (1), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

Mauler Mithel (17)

Backstabber (16)

 

 

Basically I put them on the board as far from each other i can... So Backstabber and Redline are flankers (not together!) and Mithe/alozen are closer. While Redline is still an obvious target, Alozen with calc is something you don't want to ignore, and ignoring mithel and backstabber is always a mistake.

 

The reasons I picked Backstabber and mithel is relatively reliable high damage primaries. At a budget price!

 

Oh no! Its the Unnamed Squadron!

I'd swap Mauler for Dark Curse or Night Beast + MKII

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and give the MKII to Alozen? I was thinking something like that, but the problem with Dark Curse is that no-one wants to shoot at him. The above gives them a choice of 4 wrong answers. Night beast does have real merit though... I would just prefer the extra dice.

 

Clarity: MK2 has great synergy on Nightbeast, but Alozen would need the boost more in my mind, i do prefer the above mithel / backstabber setup however, in a 3 pronged attack.

Edited by DariusAPB

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I'd like to point out also that having 4 nasty targets means that most enemies can't go for all of them at once, and have to focus on one or two, also TLT lists are a lot weaker when not focusing...

 

Brobots would be a problem for the above list I think.

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How about using 2 Cutless as level bombers:

 

2 x Cutlass + AC + EM + Seismic + Seismic/Ion Bomb

2 x Alpha + AT

 

Just drop the eggs if there is a slight chance to hit something. Don't hesitate, just drop them.

 

As a general rule of thumb, low PS bombers work well for mines (Proxy, Cluster, Connor) and high PS bombers work well for bombs.

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I'm trying this list on the weekend. Any last tweaks anyone would make? I'm going in with the mentality of blowing my load quickly (ahem) and if the enemy is still there I've lost. And I like the way a Punisher flanked by two bombers looks...

 

33 points - Major Rhymer TIE Bomber (mostly for his pilot skill to match redline so I can choose who fires or moves first. But his ability is nice on prockets)

Extra Munitions (obv)

Proton Rockets (I feel it makes the post of his pilot ability, but I'm not sold, since it doesn't get as much value as a 3 agility ship)

Crack Shot (I like this card, and I wanted a cheap elite talent. Not really any offensive options in the 2 point range)

Munitions Failsafe (not needed but had a point spare)

 

40 points - “Redline” TIE Punisher

Fire-Control System (obv)

Extra Munitions (obv)

Cluster Missiles (obv)

Homing Missiles (not sure about these)

 

27 points - Captain Jonus TIE Bomber (to support the other two)

Opportunist (I figure when he fires the other two will have striped tokens)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (to shed stress better from above)

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I've had a couple of games with a similar squad:

 

Rhymer - PTL, EM, APT

Redline - EM, Ion Torps, Clusters, FCS

Jonus - DtF

 

I lost both games, mostly because I flew like an idiot.  Not sure on the Redline loadout.  Rhymer, not being the target of everything in this list, managed to one-shot 3 ships in 2 games though.

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Jonus and Redline are completely redundant

 

 

hell, part of the reason Redline's even viable is that he doesn't need Jonus

 

leave the formation flying **** with his HLC defenders; enjoy the freedom of flying a FCS punisher :D

 

 

 

also, plasma torps. My friends, plasma torps are the future (though Protons are actually really good too, thanks to the focus --> crit mod)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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What Redline basically does is making a Homing Missile out of any type of missiles or torpedo.

I think Concussions and Proton Torps are very effective, as well as Clusters together with FCS.

So, yeah you don't need Jonus next to Redline.

What Redline would need is protection from enemy fire until his tubes are empty.

 

btw:

 

“Redline” [Fire-Control System, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Extra Munitions, Concussion Missiles] (41)

 

Anybody thought about using APT with him?

The reroll from extra TL make them quite as deathly as Prockets on an agility 3 ship.

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