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shmitty

Roges and Villains Spoilers

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100% sold on getting one of these packs. I can see why they left this for the last reveal....  what an upgrade to the game!  

 

Astonishingly good.

 

I shall be using Dengar/Howlie/2x TIE advanced as my standard imperial dogfighting cadre from now on.

 

 

Should throw in a Mauler as well.  Mauler + Intel is free damage every activation.

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The aggressor looks like an autonomous X-wing to me but trades in escort for counter 1 which will usually be an improvement. However, is the 3 points for rogue worth it?

IG-88 instead compares to the Interceptor with better speed and counter. Whether you take Fel or IG-88 will depend largely upon style and what you're putting around it. IG-88 is the obvious choice to run solo, whereas Fel needs some support and also wants to do the alpha strike.

IG-88 kills Fel+Advanced combos. So good

Except Fel's new wingman Dengar makes that a hard choice. Do you kil Fel an get 3 blue counter as a reward or target Dengar...?

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The aggressor looks like an autonomous X-wing to me but trades in escort for counter 1 which will usually be an improvement. However, is the 3 points for rogue worth it?

IG-88 instead compares to the Interceptor with better speed and counter. Whether you take Fel or IG-88 will depend largely upon style and what you're putting around it. IG-88 is the obvious choice to run solo, whereas Fel needs some support and also wants to do the alpha strike.

IG-88 kills Fel+Advanced combos. So good

Except Fel's new wingman Dengar makes that a hard choice. Do you kil Fel an get 3 blue counter as a reward or target Dengar...?
IG88 Ignores counter though. Kill Fel because you take free damage otherwise

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Except Fel's new wingman Dengar makes that a hard choice. Do you kil Fel an get 3 blue counter as a reward or target Dengar...?

 

-Dengar makes Fel's counter deal an average of 0.5 more damage. 

-Fel's ability does 1 damage if you attack Dengar.

-Fel is easier and faster to kill, and killing him removes more offensive power from your opponent. 

 

Ergo you attack Fel first.

 

Dengar has the problem of either being the highest or lowest priority to kill (always the opposite of what you would want), and combining him with things like Howlrunner and Advanced escorts is stupid expensive for not very much effect.

 

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Except Fel's new wingman Dengar makes that a hard choice. Do you kil Fel an get 3 blue counter as a reward or target Dengar...?

 

-Dengar makes Fel's counter deal an average of 0.5 more damage. 

-Fel's ability does 1 damage if you attack Dengar.

-Fel is easier and faster to kill, and killing him removes more offensive power from your opponent. 

 

Ergo you attack Fel first.

 

Dengar has the problem of either being the highest or lowest priority to kill (always the opposite of what you would want), and combining him with things like Howlrunner and Advanced escorts is stupid expensive for not very much effect.

Dengar has a distance of 1-2 on his ability so he can be further back from Howlrunner but you are spot on!

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True, but I will take it as my current fighter ball of Rhymer, Tie bomber, Tie advanced, and Fell only gets better with Dengar in the mix. I will trade Fel to kill IG88 any day.

Won't likely kill IG88 though. . . Not easily anyways. 5 speed 5 HP means it can place itself where it wants to engage at so at best you may get a single attack at him and he has scatter. Even Vader can't one shot him

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Additional thoughts....

 

The Imperials have far more access to the Rogue trait.  The Firespray especially looks like something to take multiples of.

 

The Firespray, Boba, Hound's Tooth, Outrider, Scurrg, Havoc, and Falcon all bring enough anti-ship firepower to actually make a difference in the game.  Especially the squadrons that can combine Rogue with significant anti-ship ability.  Those are the squads that will punish people for not taking defensive squadrons.

 

I'm generally less excited by the squadrons that are just really good at killing other squadrons.  We already have those and I tend to see them as mostly overkill.  Killing/nullifying squadrons isn't particularly hard.  Armada is won by killing ships and I'm excited about new options there.

 

The Engineering Captain is an interesting insurance policy.  It could make for some really easy command phases.  

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We have to take a moment to talk about the opportunity cost of the Rogue keyword.

 

 

While a squadron with the Rogue keyword costs more than a theoretical identical squadron without the keyword there are some considerations:

 

-Your ships can use commands other than squadron and still have your squadrons move and shoot.  In other words, does the added cost of Rogue exceed the benefit of additional dice via concentrate fire, or recovering shields with engineering?

 

-Rogue squadrons can operate at any location on the board independent of a carrier ship. 

 

Let us compare two groups, due to their points cost, and similarity. Both cost the same, but operate very differently:

 

1. (83 points) Neb-b escort frigate, 2 X-Wing squadrons

2  (83 points) Neb-b support refit, 2 YT-2400 squadrons

 

In the first example, the X-Wings are bound to the escort frigate, who must use squadron commands to activate them at critical moments to exploit their usefulness.

 

In the second example, the Neb-b can focus on using the other 3 commands to improve its firepower, survivability, and maneuverability, while the YT-2400s are not only faster and tougher than the X-wings, but they are not bound to the Neb-b and can act anywhere on the board they need to be.

 

 

For Imperials we can even see a direct point cost comparison for the value of Rogue:

 

-Expanded Hangers + Tie bomber (14 points)

-Expanded Hangers + Tie Interceptor (16 points)

-Firespray (18 points)

-YV-666 (15 points)

-Aggressor (16 points)

 

Even with the VSD's and ISD's very strong squadron values, Rogue can potentially be worth its cost both in terms of raw points value, as well as freeing up an offensive refit slot for other upgrades, such as a tractor beam.

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I think I am most excited for Intel. Allowing my Bombers the freedom to simply leave enemy fighters behind is going to make them much more of a priority to engage and destroy. Fighters have become a very relevent part of the game meta.

Edited by Wes Janson

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Part of the benefit of Rogue is that you don't even need to worry about the Squadron stat on your Ships. You can still get output from your Squadrons while not only opting outbid Squadron Commands but opting into ships that don't have the Squadron Stat to bother with the Command anyway.

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We have to take a moment to talk about the opportunity cost of the Rogue keyword.

 

 

While a squadron with the Rogue keyword costs more than a theoretical identical squadron without the keyword there are some considerations:

 

-Your ships can use commands other than squadron and still have your squadrons move and shoot.  In other words, does the added cost of Rogue exceed the benefit of additional dice via concentrate fire, or recovering shields with engineering?

 

-Rogue squadrons can operate at any location on the board independent of a carrier ship. 

 

Let us compare two groups, due to their points cost, and similarity. Both cost the same, but operate very differently:

 

1. (83 points) Neb-b escort frigate, 2 X-Wing squadrons

2  (83 points) Neb-b support refit, 2 YT-2400 squadrons

 

In the first example, the X-Wings are bound to the escort frigate, who must use squadron commands to activate them at critical moments to exploit their usefulness.

 

In the second example, the Neb-b can focus on using the other 3 commands to improve its firepower, survivability, and maneuverability, while the YT-2400s are not only faster and tougher than the X-wings, but they are not bound to the Neb-b and can act anywhere on the board they need to be.

 

 

For Imperials we can even see a direct point cost comparison for the value of Rogue:

 

-Expanded Hangers + Tie bomber (14 points)

-Expanded Hangers + Tie Interceptor (16 points)

-Firespray (18 points)

-YV-666 (15 points)

-Aggressor (16 points)

 

Even with the VSD's and ISD's very strong squadron values, Rogue can potentially be worth its cost both in terms of raw points value, as well as freeing up an offensive refit slot for other upgrades, such as a tractor beam.

 

The value of rogue will be far more tied to player skill and style.  It's the equivalent of Offensive and Defensive Liaison.  A good squadron player can position their squadrons for maximum effect with a minimum of squadron commands.  The way to see the value of Rogue is to figure out how many times per match a particular player can get rogue squadrons to fire, and non-rogue squadrons to fire.  Then see the average damage per point cost.  In the end, less skilled players should take the Firespray, and more skilled players should take the TIE bomber.  

 

Expanded Hangers is a poor assessment of an activation cost.  Apples and oranges.

 

Finally, there are a few cards like Yavaris which will almost always be better with the non-rogue version.

Edited by Tranenturm

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Part of the benefit of Rogue is that you don't even need to worry about the Squadron stat on your Ships. You can still get output from your Squadrons while not only opting outbid Squadron Commands but opting into ships that don't have the Squadron Stat to bother with the Command anyway.

Yup. Currently the optimal option for squadrons is to take as many as you could activate every turn with no issues. Now you can add in Rogues who can hang back so they don't get engaged and in the squadron phase pick your targets and fire.

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Hound's Tooth, Outrider, and Falcon are not good anti-ship squadrons.  They are fine per activation, but they are not cost effective.  You buy them for their anti-squadron.

 

None of the named pilots are particularly cost effective for their base stats.  Even the anti-squadron firepower on those isn't necessarily worth buying looking at pure efficiency.  They all have an attack that can at least threaten ships.  That's what may help make taking no squadrons more of a liability.

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Part of the benefit of Rogue is that you don't even need to worry about the Squadron stat on your Ships. You can still get output from your Squadrons while not only opting outbid Squadron Commands but opting into ships that don't have the Squadron Stat to bother with the Command anyway.

Yup. Currently the optimal option for squadrons is to take as many as you could activate every turn with no issues. Now you can add in Rogues who can hang back so they don't get engaged and in the squadron phase pick your targets and fire.

 

 

Except most rogues are speed 2 and 3, with the YT-2400  and IG-88 being the two exceptions.  In the YT-2400s case, rogue is its only keyword hence it works with a better range.  IG-88 is expensive and unique and the assassins kill is its shtick.

 

Therefore, with some reasonable play, many Rogues can be engaged and tied down (Grit notwithstanding) before the squadron phase entirely negating the points spent on rogue.  Now whether the cost of that one squadron command instead of a CF or Engineering command will cost you the ship battle is the issue.  Most times I don't think it will be.

Edited by Tranenturm

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Part of the benefit of Rogue is that you don't even need to worry about the Squadron stat on your Ships. You can still get output from your Squadrons while not only opting outbid Squadron Commands but opting into ships that don't have the Squadron Stat to bother with the Command anyway.

Yup. Currently the optimal option for squadrons is to take as many as you could activate every turn with no issues. Now you can add in Rogues who can hang back so they don't get engaged and in the squadron phase pick your targets and fire.

 

Except most rogues are speed 2 and 3, with the YT-2400  and IG-88 being the two exceptions.  In the YT-2400s case, rogue is its only keyword hence it works with a better range.  IG-88 is expensive and unique and the assassins kill is its shtick.

 

Therefore, with some reasonable play, many Rogues can be engaged and tied down (Grit notwithstanding) before the squadron phase entirely negating the points spent on rogue.  Now whether the cost of that one squadron command instead of a CF or Engineering command will cost you the ship battle is the issue.  Most times I don't think it will be.

Only the YV-666 and the YT-1300 is speed 2.

All other Rogues are speed 3 or better which is perfect still for their use.

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as a rebel that has been playing fighters all along all i can say is ughhhh this is gonna be rough!

You have a leg up on everyone. You have more experience with squadrons than them.

 

while I think you're right I think some of the imperial rouges are pretty point and click

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I think Wedge actually just got quite a bit better with this pack.  With all of these expensive aces coming out I think he will have more premium targets to go after, and the aces will also eat up more points, reducing the overall enemy squadron activations and increasing the likelihood that Wedge will get to trigger his ability.  Wedge will also be solid against the single-token aces, as he will accuracy their tokens regularly and almost guarantee some damage. 

 

He is still a bit underwhelming overall, though (imo), which is sad.  Wedge fanboys may now engage their firestorm of hatred and pour it on me for badmouthing him slightly.  ;)

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I think Wedge actually just got quite a bit better with this pack.  With all of these expensive aces coming out I think he will have more premium targets to go after, and the aces will also eat up more points, reducing the overall enemy squadron activations and increasing the likelihood that Wedge will get to trigger his ability.  Wedge will also be solid against the single-token aces, as he will accuracy their tokens regularly and almost guarantee some damage. 

 

He is still a bit underwhelming overall, though (imo), which is sad.  Wedge fanboys may now engage their firestorm of hatred and pour it on me for badmouthing him slightly.  ;)

 

nah, he really is not that great :P

 

 

fun times with Haven, though

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We have to take a moment to talk about the opportunity cost of the Rogue keyword.

 

 

While a squadron with the Rogue keyword costs more than a theoretical identical squadron without the keyword there are some considerations:

 

-Your ships can use commands other than squadron and still have your squadrons move and shoot.  In other words, does the added cost of Rogue exceed the benefit of additional dice via concentrate fire, or recovering shields with engineering?

 

-Rogue squadrons can operate at any location on the board independent of a carrier ship. 

 

Let us compare two groups, due to their points cost, and similarity. Both cost the same, but operate very differently:

 

1. (83 points) Neb-b escort frigate, 2 X-Wing squadrons

2  (83 points) Neb-b support refit, 2 YT-2400 squadrons

 

In the first example, the X-Wings are bound to the escort frigate, who must use squadron commands to activate them at critical moments to exploit their usefulness.

 

In the second example, the Neb-b can focus on using the other 3 commands to improve its firepower, survivability, and maneuverability, while the YT-2400s are not only faster and tougher than the X-wings, but they are not bound to the Neb-b and can act anywhere on the board they need to be.

 

 

For Imperials we can even see a direct point cost comparison for the value of Rogue:

 

-Expanded Hangers + Tie bomber (14 points)

-Expanded Hangers + Tie Interceptor (16 points)

-Firespray (18 points)

-YV-666 (15 points)

-Aggressor (16 points)

 

Even with the VSD's and ISD's very strong squadron values, Rogue can potentially be worth its cost both in terms of raw points value, as well as freeing up an offensive refit slot for other upgrades, such as a tractor beam.

 

I agree with your assessment of why Rogue is good, so don't take this as disagreement.  :)

 

I think there are still advantages to not running Rogue and relying on squadron commands, mainly that you get to activate during a ship's activation and before the squadron phase when all the Rogues get to move.  Sure, you can still activate a Rogue with a command or token, but if you do, you're likely greatly overpaying for that squad.

 

I think using a squadron command to activate a group of squads will be most impactful in (but not limited to) these two situations:

  1. Making your ship's activation as powerful as possible Biggest possible single ship activation -- ISD + 4 TIE Bombers + Squadron Command = 4 Red, 4 Blue, 4 Black dice.  The ability to completely wipe out an enemy ship in a single activation cannot be overlooked.  It's a crazy huge momentum swing, as anyone who has ever seen a Glad munch on a Neb can tell you.
  2. Preemptively destroying high priority enemy squads with your fighters -- Getting an alpha strike on enemy squadrons will become even more important than it is now because of how many more points people will probably be dumping into them.  It's especially impactful if you can pick of a combo piece.  A Flight Controllers'd Howlrunner + 2 or 3 TIE Interceptors will pretty much let you pick off any squadron you set your sights on.  Hey, it's really cool that you spent 24 points on Dash, but I'd like him to no longer be in the game, thank you very much.  Planning on some Boba Fett shenanigans?  Introduce him to a squadron command activated Flying Dutchman and Sir Wedginald of Antilles.  Hell, an activated Dutch by himself is enough to effectively mess with a lot of combos as many of them require proximity.  If Jan or Dengar can't fly with their group, you're SoL (note to self: escort).

Needless to say, the squadron meta just became a thing.  It's no longer a simple choice of bringing or not bringing squadrons, as there are going to be so many different types of lists.  And I couldn't be happier!   :D

 

Edit: Changed up the wording on point 1 to not offend the B-Wing faithful!  :P

Edited by LazorBeems

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