Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Manchu

Following Disney's Example

Recommended Posts

Just let the story fail forward with a time-skip. Give in a couple-of-hundred years of "Dark Ages" with dubious history. Then nobody gets to complain about continuity holes / retcon and you can move on to developing a games worth playing and stories worth telling.

 

 

 

This is exactly what happened with the Forgotten Realms in Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition; for me it was a hot mess to put it lightly. A lot of people didn't like the Spellplague time jump of around a century or so; it was so bad that when 5th Edition came around, they brought in the original creator of the Forgotten Realms to clean everything up in "The Sundering."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A card game that gives you more a la carte story flavor (sort of how 4th Ed L5R RPG books handled it) would be the most appealing. I want to see all my old favorite personalities from the Clan Wars era. And just like Game of Thrones has different cards for different stages in character development, the card game could offer that here as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we're bringing back old favorite characters, I would personally love to see some more story time for Hantei Naseru, before he was handed the idiot stick and left the Empire to collapse. In fact, let's see all the Four Winds again. After all, AEG promised it would not bring back Toturi Tsudao, but FFG made no such promises.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Doctor Who analogies are particularly strong with L5R at this time.  Much like the Classic series, L5R was encountering a terrible downturn in sales and investment, due to a number of factors, though much like Classic Who, I would place some of the blame squarely on poor decisions in the management area.  Both were reaching the end of their runs in their current forms after twenty or more years, and it was time to take a step back to evaluate what to do with them, though thankfully, we won't have to wait nearly fifteen years for the relaunch of L5R.

 

I agree with sndwurks that the best course of action for the brand would be the thematic reboot as it would acknowledge the work of players and writers for the AEG years, yet allow the story and game to jump forward to begin a new story, possibly with tweaks to the available factions, a stronger, more cohesive narrative out of the gates, and a more measured form of player/story interaction.  Starting right with Onyx or just after that arc runs the risk of injecting many of the problems that the game and storyline faced at its end with AEG, such as too many loose ends, unmanageable levels of player interaction, and inescapable systemic and historical inertia, back into the game, when it is the perfect time to evolve the brand and story into something more accessible to modern gamers.

Edited by Osmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is potentially inflammatory, so please do not take this as a personal attack on anyone supporting a reboot to Clan War. This is merely my opinion on why the Clan War is not a good point to set the story to.

 

I think the game is in need of a thematic reboot, in a way to make each Great Clan starkly unique. Part of the problem with the Clan War reboot? Is that the factions (not Clans, remember) were not yet that distinct.

 

I do not want to go back to the days of the 13 factions, and this is coming from someone who started this game playing the Naga. The six Great Clans, the Scorpion remnants, the Naga, Toturi's Army, Yogo Junzo's Horde, Yoritomo's Alliance, the Brotherhood of Shinsei, were all in Clan War. Dark Path of Shadow came in the Hidden Emperor. And let's not forget the Spirits & Ratlings!

 

Yeah. Rebooting back to the Clan War does not make things simpler. Thematically rebooting the setting by advancing the storyline does, and remember... the Clans were not iconic DURING the Clan War, but AFTER it.

Make the Crab be a defensive military faction. (They spent the Clan War being offensive and Tainted.)
Make the Crane the honorable political faction. (They spent the Clan War being hated on by everyone.)

Make the Dragon the enlightenment faction. (What did they do during the Clan War again? Oh yeah, gave Toturi an army.)

Make the Lion the offensive military faction. (They served a demon god emperor, and then fought themselves.)

Make the Mantis the economic military faction. (They were just a bunch of minor clans who kind of did stuff? No, wait, that was Yoritomo.)

Make the Phoenix the magic political faction. (They basically melted their faces off with corruption in the Clan War.)

Make the Scorpion the dishonorable political faction. (The Clan War? Totally their fault.)

Make the Unicorn the tricky military faction. (Name me a Unicorn OTHER than Otaku Kamoko who did something in the Clan War. And then tell me what Kamoko did other than kill Yogo Junzo and then get backhanded by Fu Leng.)

 

Bring in Kanpeki's Horde / Spider Clan with your first deluxe expansion, as a Tainted military faction.

 

And make a game where each can rely on their strengths to win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is potentially inflammatory, so please do not take this as a personal attack on anyone supporting a reboot to Clan War. This is merely my opinion on why the Clan War is not a good point to set the story to.

 

I think the game is in need of a thematic reboot, in a way to make each Great Clan starkly unique. Part of the problem with the Clan War reboot? Is that the factions (not Clans, remember) were not yet that distinct.

 

I do not want to go back to the days of the 13 factions, and this is coming from someone who started this game playing the Naga. The six Great Clans, the Scorpion remnants, the Naga, Toturi's Army, Yogo Junzo's Horde, Yoritomo's Alliance, the Brotherhood of Shinsei, were all in Clan War. Dark Path of Shadow came in the Hidden Emperor. And let's not forget the Spirits & Ratlings!

 

Yeah. Rebooting back to the Clan War does not make things simpler. Thematically rebooting the setting by advancing the storyline does, and remember... the Clans were not iconic DURING the Clan War, but AFTER it.

Make the Crab be a defensive military faction. (They spent the Clan War being offensive and Tainted.)

Make the Crane the honorable political faction. (They spent the Clan War being hated on by everyone.)

Make the Dragon the enlightenment faction. (What did they do during the Clan War again? Oh yeah, gave Toturi an army.)

Make the Lion the offensive military faction. (They served a demon god emperor, and then fought themselves.)

Make the Mantis the economic military faction. (They were just a bunch of minor clans who kind of did stuff? No, wait, that was Yoritomo.)

Make the Phoenix the magic political faction. (They basically melted their faces off with corruption in the Clan War.)

Make the Scorpion the dishonorable political faction. (The Clan War? Totally their fault.)

Make the Unicorn the tricky military faction. (Name me a Unicorn OTHER than Otaku Kamoko who did something in the Clan War. And then tell me what Kamoko did other than kill Yogo Junzo and then get backhanded by Fu Leng.)

 

Bring in Kanpeki's Horde / Spider Clan with your first deluxe expansion, as a Tainted military faction.

 

And make a game where each can rely on their strengths to win.

 

No offense taken on my part! What interests me about Clan Wars is not necessarily all of the bad trappings, but the idea that the Clans were so focused on their internal squabbles and strife, they weren't heeding the warnings of the impending threat of the Shadowlands. Honestly, it's essentially the same plot as Game of Thrones as of the most current material. A focus on divisions between clans, but also with warring factions within those, appeals to me more than any generic Big Bad.

 

A thematic reboot is just as good to me as a full reboot. It puts the factions in a similar position, though the details could be different and it gives FFG the chance to build up their own story and address changes thru the simple device of the passage of time.

 

And even if it is a full reboot, I'm more than okay with the stories told going in a completely different direction or the details being handled differently. It's not so much a carbon copy as it is the tone of Rokugani politics that appeals to me about starting at the "beginning" (or A beginning).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clan Wars is the perfect era to set any reboot for three reasons:

 

(a) enough has already transpired in the setting to contextualize its "present"

 

(b) it introduces the Clans and their rivalries, L5R's greatest asset as an IP*

 

© there's Something Big coming for existing fans to anticipate

 

* also important because it allows new fans to "live out" in this era rather than simply scan wikis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except that the Clans that it introduces aren't acting the way those Clans "should" act -- the way that exemplifies the traits that players find likable and resonant.

 

 

I was just thinking, isn't that the time when many of the clans were acting "out of character"?  Example, the Crab allying with the Shadowlands? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clan Wars is the perfect era to set any reboot for three reasons:

 

(a) enough has already transpired in the setting to contextualize its "present"

 

(b) it introduces the Clans and their rivalries, L5R's greatest asset as an IP*

 

© there's Something Big coming for existing fans to anticipate

 

* also important because it allows new fans to "live out" in this era rather than simply scan wikis

I disagree here.  A reset doesn´t matter to which era leaves a bad atste in my mouth for L5R at least.

The reason is that all what happend after is established Kanon and if you follow the disney example 

it wil not go as it has gone with Star Wars cause in cotrast to the Extended Universe which was something you could choose

to be part or not part of Star Wars L5r has no option. We had an RPG and CCG published and stated thes outcomes and

consequences of it. Relaunching it at this date and chaning the history afterwards would look like a bad redcon to me and would destroy the 

continuity of the setting. 

 

So for me the far better choic is keeping the contiunity and go forward form the point we are on now and this time make the setting of the RPG and LCG

timeline independent so you can basicly visit differen eras of the Game and let the story line continue without a need to start at point x. 

 

 

Huitzil37, on 30 Sept 2015 - 7:20 PM, said:

Except that the Clans that it introduces aren't acting the way those Clans "should" act -- the way that exemplifies the traits that players find likable and resonant.

 

 

I disagree with this too. How the clan should act is entirely to the player and his vision of the clan he is playing. This is entirely subjective and there is nothing like the clan should act in this way cause thats the way he has to act or else it is out of character. Each clan is composed out of many individuals and not all think in the same boundaries or ways. This means there are all kinds of different appraoches and therefore there is no ultimate way how a Clan cause it ultimately depends on the Clan Champion and the Familiy heads how they think the clan should act which can be entirely different as soon as new person get this job. 

Edited by Teveshszat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clan Wars is the perfect era to set any reboot for three reasons:

 

(a) enough has already transpired in the setting to contextualize its "present"

 

(b) it introduces the Clans and their rivalries, L5R's greatest asset as an IP*

 

© there's Something Big coming for existing fans to anticipate

 

* also important because it allows new fans to "live out" in this era rather than simply scan wikis

 

To answer your points in turn:

 

A) I assume we are speaking about the actual start of the Clan War, being Hida Kisada's rebellion and the battle between Hida Sukune's Crab forces and Toturi's Dragon forces at Beiden Pass? I disagree. I do not believe enough has happened to contextualize its present state. There is no mention of the Mantis Clan, the Spider Clan (love 'em or hate 'em), there are no Akodo other than Akodo Kage, and other factors to boot.

 

B) It does not. Who is the true rival of the Lion Clan? Is it the Crane Clan (Clan Wars) or the Unicorn Clan (Four Winds)? Or Scorpion Clan (present)? Also, in the Clan War, the Scorpion Clan is not a Great Clan, so your best source of dishonorable samurai villains? Are broken and hidden survivors of a failed coup. Let's add to that the whole problem of the Unicorn Clan (who do nothing really) or the Phoenix Clan (who are blowing themselves up, and not being peaceful priest / scholars at all).

 

C) You mean the Second Day of Thunder? The problem with that is that it's not all that big. Or exciting. When you know how it ends, there's no real anticipation, no real excitement. We have already been there twice, with the Time of the Void expansion set and Siege: Clan War. What made the Second Day of Thunder cool was not what happened in the storyline. It is what happened at GenCon 1997.

 

If you want the Great Clans acting in character? If you want compelling, memorable characters? If you want a game which is truly about samurai fighting samurai for the greatest of stakes? Reboot the game to the Four Winds era.

 

Rebooting to the Clan War provides few advantages that moving the story forward with a thematic reboot does not also provide, and hands the game several disadvantages that it does not need. The only advantage I can see to the Clan War reboot is the return of certain fan favorite characters (Togashi Yokuni, Bayushi Kachiko, Yoritomo), and honestly? Moving the game back to the Clan War freezes it forever in the shadow of something that took place 18 years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "EU is optional" idea is made up. I have been trying to avoid this tangent because this is a conversation about L5R rather than Star Wars. But it is relevant to the extent that posters keep misunderstanding the basic characteristic of canon -- i.e., it is a fan perspective on an IP. The concept of canon has sometimes been adopted by IP owners as part of a marketing strategy. For example, L5R continuity (note: not canon) is particularly consistent because customers could compete to contribute to the storyline of the CCG. The value of this kind of prize is directly proportional to the consistency of the continuity. Indeed, its high level of consistency became such a strong part of L5R's identity under AEG that the company felt obliged to produce alternate takes on the Rokugan setting for the RPG.

 

FFG could in turn effectively transform the forgoing continuity into another alternative universe, while the "real" (read current) Rokugan is presented in a brand new series of products.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The "EU is optional" idea is made up. I have been trying to avoid this tangent because this is a conversation about L5R rather than Star Wars. But it is relevant to the extent that posters keep misunderstanding the basic characteristic of canon -- i.e., it is a fan perspective on an IP.

 

Your approach to Canon is wrong. The Urban dictonary defines Canon as: Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.

This means the offical part which are the 6 Star Wars movies is Canon the EU is not cause the LP was with Lucas and he only made the 6 Movies. 

That also means that everthing AEG published is Canon and only that until now. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me clarify again that I am not talking about FFG just taking exactly what came before and republishing it. I am envisioning FFG taking "essential ingredients" to retell the story of Rokugan. So here's an example of how that might work:

 

What elements are already in place by the time of the "present" for these products? Torunament of Kami, First Day of Thunder are the key ones. This sets up the basic cosmological/political context of the setting.

 

What conflicts define the "present"? Hantei dynasty declining in prestige, the original Great Clans are powerful and ambitious. This contextualizes the in-game conflict of clans fighting clans.

 

Where is this leading? After an initial cycle establishing the identity of the Clans and their relationships, there would naturally follow a cycle focusing on somekind of Shadowlands crisis. Maybe this will involve Hida Kisada marching against Hantei XXXIX only to find the emperor has been possessed by Fu Leng. Maybe not. As a resolution to this crisis cycle, FFG could follow with one that introduces the Mantis and Spider clans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Teveshszat: Please don't quote (of all things) Urban Dictionary at me. I am talking about canon as it actually developed (for example, with Star Trek since the 60s). IP owners and developers generally don't care about all the fictional details fitting together when that gets in the way of creating a marketable product. (As I explained, strict continuity was a marketing feature of L5R for AEG.) Historically speaking, fan communities make canon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But that is not Canon. I also can go for other Sources that also say canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story.  So what you mean is not Canon it is something else. Also why I should not use quote from a dictionary to cement my point.  To be honest is was the fastest definition I found I have not particular problems with the Urban dictionary

 

But just to cement it further the definiton what Canon means for the literature

 

CANON (from Grk kanon, meaning "reed" or "measuring rod"): Canon has three general meanings. (1) An approved or traditional collection of works. Originally, the term "canon" applied to the list of books to be included as authentic biblical doctrine in the Hebrew and Christian Bible, as opposed to apocryphal works (works of dubious, mysterious or uncertain origin). Click here for more information. (2) Today, literature students typically use the word canon to refer to those works in anthologies that have come to be considered standard or traditionally included in the classroom and published textbooks. In this sense, "the canon" denotes the entire body of literature traditionally thought to be suitable for admiration and study. (3) In addition, the word canon refers to the writings of an author that scholars generally accepted as genuine products of siad author, such as the "Chaucer canon" or the "Shakespeare canon." Chaucer's canon includes The Canterbury Tales, for instance, but it does not include the apocryphal work, "The Plowman's Tale," which has been mistakenly attributed to him in the past. Likewise, the Shakespearean canon has only two apocryphal plays (Pericles and the Two Noble Kinsmen) that have gained wide acceptance as authentic Shakespearean works beyond the thirty-six plays contained in the First Folio. NB: Do not confuse the spelling of cannon (the big gun) with canon (the official collection of literary works).

 

So even there a Canon is what is concidered standard and or are from the original author. For Satr wArs this means everthing from Lucas is Canon everthing which is not from him is not therefore the EU is not Canon and you definiton is still wrong cause Canon is not fanbased driven.

Edited by Teveshszat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I disagree with this too. How the clan should act is entirely to the player and his vision of the clan he is playing. This is entirely subjective and there is nothing like the clan should act in this way cause thats the way he has to act or else it is out of character. Each clan is composed out of many individuals and not all think in the same boundaries or ways. This means there are all kinds of different appraoches and therefore there is no ultimate way how a Clan cause it ultimately depends on the Clan Champion and the Familiy heads how they think the clan should act which can be entirely different as soon as new person get this job. 

 

 

True, not every character in every Clan has to behave "like a ______ (insert clan name here)". 

 

However, the general subculture -- customs, tendancies, values, strengths, weaknesses, biases, etc -- of each Clan is absolutely and unquestionably a matter of the canon established by the creative teams through years of published material. 

 

That is, you are free to say "my _____ character is like this" or "in my campaign, the ______ are like this"... but you cannot rationally or objectively claim that the publisher/creative teams don't get to set the standard canon for the setting and all its parts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for clarifying the argument further, Manchu. Please allow me to do likewise.

 

I think we both agree that it was the continuity of story which was central to Legend of the Five Rings' success and survival to this point. In fact, I would even argue it is the ONLY reason L5R made it this far. The game is fun, and the setting is cool, but it is not unique in those aspects. It is the interactive continuity of Rokugan was what made L5R succeed for the years that it did.

 

By disposing of that continuity, FFG would be doing a disservice to the established fan base, as many of them have been involved with this continuity.

 

By preserving the continuity, FFG would be retaining the successful aspect of the product they have purchased. By moving the story forward, FFG can put the continuity to a state where it thematically resembles the Clan War (weak central power / emperor, powerful Great Clans) without shackling it to the narrative from the past.

 

I think an important difference between both the "de-canonization" of the EU in Star Wars / the Marvel Cinematic Universe and L5R is that in both cases, your market is different. The Star Wars EU were novels, video games, and other mediums. The base Marvel universe are comic books. They are not movies. L5R CCG and L5R LCG are both card games. Your market remains the same, and it is a poor business decision to start a new product in that market which will conflict with an established force in that market. See the Edition Wars of D&D for more information, and remember that Pathfinder RPG is D&D 5th Edition's chief competitor (Summer 2014: http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/29999/top-5-rpgs-summer-2014Spring 2015: http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32097/top-5-roleplaying-games-spring-2015 ).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

I disagree with this too. How the clan should act is entirely to the player and his vision of the clan he is playing. This is entirely subjective and there is nothing like the clan should act in this way cause thats the way he has to act or else it is out of character. Each clan is composed out of many individuals and not all think in the same boundaries or ways. This means there are all kinds of different appraoches and therefore there is no ultimate way how a Clan cause it ultimately depends on the Clan Champion and the Familiy heads how they think the clan should act which can be entirely different as soon as new person get this job. 

 

 

True, not every character in every Clan has to behave "like a ______ (insert clan name here)". 

 

However, the general subculture -- customs, tendancies, values, strengths, weaknesses, biases, etc -- of each Clan is absolutely and unquestionably a matter of the canon established by the creative teams through years of published material. 

 

That is, you are free to say "my _____ character is like this" or "in my campaign, the ______ are like this"... but you cannot rationally or objectively claim that the publisher/creative teams don't get to set the standard canon for the setting and all its parts. 

 

 

You are right I can´t say that the Ip owner hasn´t the right to set the standard. Therefore the Crab becoming allies of the Shadowlands is not acting out of cahracter cause the officals said a part of the Crab thinks this is the right way to go and made it offical.  

What I disagree with is the "This is out of chracter" phrase coming from players cause the current action is not fitting their picture of it cause most of them tend not even to try to see a differen view of it but just stick to their view as the only one which is valid. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

I disagree with this too. How the clan should act is entirely to the player and his vision of the clan he is playing. This is entirely subjective and there is nothing like the clan should act in this way cause thats the way he has to act or else it is out of character. Each clan is composed out of many individuals and not all think in the same boundaries or ways. This means there are all kinds of different appraoches and therefore there is no ultimate way how a Clan cause it ultimately depends on the Clan Champion and the Familiy heads how they think the clan should act which can be entirely different as soon as new person get this job. 

 

 

True, not every character in every Clan has to behave "like a ______ (insert clan name here)". 

 

However, the general subculture -- customs, tendancies, values, strengths, weaknesses, biases, etc -- of each Clan is absolutely and unquestionably a matter of the canon established by the creative teams through years of published material. 

 

That is, you are free to say "my _____ character is like this" or "in my campaign, the ______ are like this"... but you cannot rationally or objectively claim that the publisher/creative teams don't get to set the standard canon for the setting and all its parts. 

 

 

You are right I can´t say that the Ip owner hasn´t the right to set the standard. Therefore the Crab becoming allies of the Shadowlands is not acting out of cahracter cause the officals said a part of the Crab thinks this is the right way to go and made it offical.  

What I disagree with is the "This is out of chracter" phrase coming from players cause the current action is not fitting their picture of it cause most of them tend not even to try to see a differen view of it but just stick to their view as the only one which is valid. 

 

 

Authors and other creative teams can be guilty of taking a character or group "out of character" for the sake or convenience of what they'd like to do a the moment in their story or product.  Television shows and comic books are notorious for this.  If they've shown over many years, many instances, that a character is X and then suddenly do something that's absolutely and inexplicably counter to what they've established, then there's an issue. 

 

Fans and critics are absolutely right to point out such instances as failures on the part of the author, director, whoever. 

 

 

The Crab allying with the Shadowlands certainly looks like an example of such. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am of the opinion that the best way for them to go is either move to an alternate timeline where everyone we know is dead, or move to the future where everyone we know is dead, and go from there.

 

It wouldnt be a great idea to try and do something like Clan War or Four Winds as is again, because if they dont do it better, its only a loss, and if they do it differently, its going to be strange when you talk about the lore of the world and have to explain it twice :P

 

Its like the Star Trek reboot.  Its shiny, its new, it lensflares...  its just not close to as good as the originals and shouldnt have tried to tell the same stories a different way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sndwurks: D&D5E is actually Pathfinder's biggest competitor. What I mean is, Pathfinder took the lead as WotC rolled up D&D4E. But 5E has recaptured the territory. One of the key strategies for doing so was broadening 5E's appeal beyond the existing 3E/Pathfinder or 4E player bases. FFG needs to basically do the same with the L5R license more broadly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...