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VaynMaanen

Dice Etiquette - What To Do When Too Many Dice are Rolled?

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I personally go with always rerolling the correct amount.

 

Adding or removing a die after rolling is too complicated. What if he doesn't roll all the same result? Which do you remove?

 

No matter what you choose to do about it, be consistent with it throughout the rest of the match. Changing how you do something in the middle of an ongoing game is definitely unfair

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So Stone in the vein you just described is there any reason for a TO to do anything but force a legal roll? Assuming we are talking about a singular instance, and not a repeated issue, is there a reason for a TO to not enforce the rules of the game in the simpliest, most neutral, most in keeping with the rules and other mistake procedures manner?

IF, and I say if because it has never happened in the years I have been TOing, I were to be called over to a table where a player had rolled too many dice and the argument they gave me was the Roller wanted to keep his dice, and the other player wanted to keep the dice minus one I would have to rule in the manor I have described before.  The dice have been rolled and there are results.  The way I see it, just one too many results.  

But I think the more important question that should be asked now is if this is actually a problem in regular X-wing play?  Are we constantly dealing with players rolling too many dice?  If the answer is yes, then a solution needs to be crafted.  If this is a problems that is handled almost 100% of the time by the players, as I believe it to be, with out the need of a TO, then it is a non-issue.

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Had a huge wall of text and lost it... Grrr!

A couple thoughts.

I think the most important thing is that it's dealt with consistently. Idealy it should be the same everywhere but even if it's not as long a the TO deals with it the same way every time, then it's effectively fair.

But I do think FFG needs to answer the question, because I don't think people will change their mind just because I said to do it a given way. And the rules are really not quite clear cut. Sure you can interpret them a given way, and Scotty makes a good argument. But that argument also has to infer a few things and I'd prefer a cut and dry ruling from FFG.

I could see FFG ruling that we use Stones method, and let the other player pick which results to keep. That would be keeping with way they ruled on how to deal with it when someone forgets to set a dial, or sets the wrong dial and it's an illegal maneuver.

Although in those cases there's no way to let someone fix their mistake fairly, since they will be setting a dial having seen where at least one other ship ends up. So they would be setting a dial with information they should not have.

The same can't be said for the dice, the offending player gains nothing by making a new roll. But myself I'd be willing to accept whatever FFG says.

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But why?  I'm asking seriously - I'm curious why it isn't more balanced to simply reroll the correct amount in both instances.

You don't get to keep the results you like if you rolled too many.  Why should you get to if you rolled too few but like the ones you did roll?

What about people who roll one die at a time?

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I'm having this situation happen from time to time. In casual games I'm usually more lenient but in Tournaments I'm usually caught in the awkward position of arguing whether dice should be re-rolled or not.

 

One particular case I remember is shooting my secondary weapon, clearly stating that there was no R3 bonus, and the opponent rolled an extra green anyways. He rolled 4 evades, and when I noted him rolling an extra die, he claimed "well, even if I rolled 3 it would've have been 3 evades".

 

Is the standard etiquette to re-roll your dice if you roll too many? Or am I being a stickler by thinking they should?

 

Is there an official TO ruling on this? Or does this just come down to etiquette?

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts! Thanks!

 

 

 

The only issue with having them re-roll all of them, is that some players like to burn bad dice rolls.   (or find the die that they know rolls bad)   So they purposely roll more than needed.    So they can reroll just the correct amount.

 

It's like in poker where people burn a card, I know dice are different, but I have see people roll more than they are supposed to and then take the die which rolls bad and remove it.

 

I think if should be up to the other player, they can choose to keep the roll or for them to re-roll with the correct amount.

 

But for now, the standard convention is to just re-roll the entire roll with the correct amount of dice.

Edited by eagletsi111

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The only issue with having them re-roll all of them, is that some players like to burn bad dice rolls.

You can't burn a bad dice roll. It just doesn't work that way. You can't control if the new roll will be better or worse, so if you roll too many dice you stand an equal chance of losing a good roll and getting a bad one as you do losing a bad one and getting a good one.

 

but I have see people roll more than they are supposed to and then take the die which rolls bad and remove it.

If you mean they roll four dice when they should roll three, then remove the result they don't like... that's simply cheating, and the TO should be informed of it ASAP.

If you mean they roll a bunch of dice and try to find the bad die, that's really down to superstition.

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The only issue with having them re-roll all of them, is that some players like to burn bad dice rolls.

You can't burn a bad dice roll. It just doesn't work that way. You can't control if the new roll will be better or worse, so if you roll too many dice you stand an equal chance of losing a good roll and getting a bad one as you do losing a bad one and getting a good one.

 

but I have see people roll more than they are supposed to and then take the die which rolls bad and remove it.

If you mean they roll four dice when they should roll three, then remove the result they don't like... that's simply cheating, and the TO should be informed of it ASAP.

If you mean they roll a bunch of dice and try to find the bad die, that's really down to superstition.

 

 

 

Very true!    But I have seen it happen many times.     I know it's just superstition, but lots of player believe in it.     Plus with all the crazy dice youtube stuff and showing how dice are  not balanced, who knows!!!

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I can tell you in a Regional I could have gone 5-1, but instead went 4-2.   Because on the last turn after the time was sounded, I attacked his Soontier and rolled 3 hits,   He rolled 5 dice, thinking he still had his stealth device.    He rolled 5 blanks, then said, "I should have only rolled 4"    They let him re-roll and he rolled 3 evades,   I lost.   Missing the cut by a re-rolled die roll.

 

 

Since it was his mistake,  I wanted to accept the first roll, but the judge ruled he had to roll again.    

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I can tell you in a Regional I could have gone 5-1, but instead went 4-2.   Because on the last turn after the time was sounded, I attacked his Soontier and rolled 3 hits,   He rolled 5 dice, thinking he still had his stealth device.    He rolled 5 blanks, then said, "I should have only rolled 4"    They let him re-roll and he rolled 3 evades,   I lost.   Missing the cut by a re-rolled die roll.

 

 

Since it was his mistake,  I wanted to accept the first roll, but the judge ruled he had to roll again.    

 

That's an unfortunate set of circumstances but would you feel the same if he rolled 5 evades would you have argued for him to keep the roll then? There has to be consistency and one rule for all cases otherwise you'll just fight for whatever benefits you most.

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I know it's just superstition, but lots of player believe in it.

I've done it. I've used all sorts of dice superstitions... But I know they don't really do anything, so I don't think it's worth calling anyone on.

Plus with all the crazy dice youtube stuff and showing how dice are  not balanced, who knows!!!

That's true, there are dice that will roll better or worse due to manufacturing defects. But to pick them out, you would need to roll them 250+ times before you'd really know if there is something wrong with it. If someone does that before the game well that would be pretty clear. But if I found I had a die that was defective I'd just not bring it.

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My methods are as follows:

 

1)  Rolled too many, total re-roll unless either removing the best or worst die would have no effect on results (i.e. all blanks, all focus, all hits/crits when shields are up).

2)  Rolled too few, roll additional dice and add to previous result.

3)  Rolled a die off table, re-roll die that was off table.

4)  Rolled die on object edge where it is not totally flat, if the result can be clearly determined because the angle is low, let it ride.  If there is any reasonable dispute about what the result actually is, re-roll it.  This is the fly casual test.

5)  Die touched during roll, re-roll the die that was touched.

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I do have to modify mine slightly in that the player who did not roll extra dice always has the right to decline a re-roll.  This is the football right of the aggrieved team to decline a penalty if the result of the play was more advantageous to the non-penalized team.  It really is an addendum to #1.  

 

A situation where this may come up is where an attacker rolls 5 dice instead of the proper 4 and the results are 4 blank and a crit.  When the attacker points out the mistake, the defender has the right to let it ride.  Now, the defender can't retroactively demand a re-roll if his/her defense roll is bad.  Once the re-roll is declined, the results stand.

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I do have to modify mine slightly in that the player who did not roll extra dice always has the right to decline a re-roll.  This is the football right of the aggrieved team to decline a penalty if the result of the play was more advantageous to the non-penalized team.  It really is an addendum to #1. 

 

I am not going to quote Major Juggler's post because it was really long, but I will link to it. As he explained upthread, anything at all other than consistent application of the reroll requirement changes the distribution. The players should not under any circumstances be permitted to forego the reroll, assuming that "reroll illegal rolls" is the standard in use.

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The only issue with having them re-roll all of them, is that some players like to burn bad dice rolls.

You can't burn a bad dice roll. It just doesn't work that way. You can't control if the new roll will be better or worse, so if you roll too many dice you stand an equal chance of losing a good roll and getting a bad one as you do losing a bad one and getting a good one.

 

but I have see people roll more than they are supposed to and then take the die which rolls bad and remove it.

If you mean they roll four dice when they should roll three, then remove the result they don't like... that's simply cheating, and the TO should be informed of it ASAP.

If you mean they roll a bunch of dice and try to find the bad die, that's really down to superstition.

 

 

 

Very true!    But I have seen it happen many times.     I know it's just superstition, but lots of player believe in it.     Plus with all the crazy dice youtube stuff and showing how dice are  not balanced, who knows!!!

 

Doesn't matter if they believe in it, it still can't change their dice. I used to think that setting all my d20s down with the 1 facing up would improve my results. There was no noticeable change when I stopped doing that and started rolling it around in my hand until it was time to roll. An unbalanced die could be an issue but one or two rolls won't find anything, you'd want to roll the same one a couple hundred times and record the results to be certain that this one blanks more frequently. Even then I'd need to see a very high rate of rolling blanks to be convinced there was a flaw in the die. 

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Your monkey brain evolved to find patterns to spot predators in the jungle and that pattern seeking habit has never gone away.

That's why when things fall over we assume something or someone must have caused it even when we know we are alone.

You wear a certain pairs of socks and your local sports team wins suddenly they are lucky socks.

It's irrational but even when you know its total nonsense the monkey brain gibbers at the back of your mind saying otherwise.

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It could be random, or maybe you haven't found the connection yet ;)

 

Question: at what point is a die Lucky and what point do you consider it flawed/ unbalanced?

 

Played a game of metal gear RISK, one of the six sided dice rolled a 6 95% of the time.

You roll a dice 10 times and you get 7 sixes, that's lucky, 9 sixes and it's crooked.

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I do have to modify mine slightly in that the player who did not roll extra dice always has the right to decline a re-roll.  This is the football right of the aggrieved team to decline a penalty if the result of the play was more advantageous to the non-penalized team.  It really is an addendum to #1. 

 

I am not going to quote Major Juggler's post because it was really long, but I will link to it. As he explained upthread, anything at all other than consistent application of the reroll requirement changes the distribution. The players should not under any circumstances be permitted to forego the reroll, assuming that "reroll illegal rolls" is the standard in use.

 

That assumes that the intent of a rule is to not give the party that did not make the mistake an advantage.  Rules are rules created by people and subject to change.  Baseball is 9 innings because the rules state that 9 innings is the length of a game.  It could be 10 or 8 or whatever the governing body says it is.

 

Personally, I prefer a rule system that gives slight advantage to the party that did not make the mistake because there should be some sort of punishment for making mistakes.  Otherwise it invites people to make intentional "mistakes" without in-game repercussions.

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Roll too few? Reroll.

Roll too many? Reroll.

One rolled off the table? Reroll.

Hit the base of any ship? Reroll.

Find clear areas to roll your dice.

Only proper rolling should be allowed.

 

No.

 

Too few?  Maybe he doesn't have enough dice to roll.  Roll Additional dice, perhaps even reusing ones you've already rolled after noting what those results are, until you have the correct number of dice.  This is in the rules!

 

Too many?  Best practice would be to void and roll again.  I see just one case where I don't believe that needs to be followed.

 

One falls of table?  Roll that die in "the accepted rolling area."  No need to roll everything again.  If it doesn't land in "the accepted rolling area" then too few dice have been rolled so more dice would need to be included.

 

It hit something?!?  WHO CARES!  Or more accurately it shouldn't matter to the dice one bit what they bounce off of before settling down although what they hit could have issues.  Isn't this what dice towers effectively are?

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Your monkey brain evolved to find patterns to spot predators in the jungle and that pattern seeking habit has never gone away.

That's why when things fall over we assume something or someone must have caused it even when we know we are alone.

You wear a certain pairs of socks and your local sports team wins suddenly they are lucky socks.

It's irrational but even when you know its total nonsense the monkey brain gibbers at the back of your mind saying otherwise.

 

 

in the jungle

 

the mighty jungle

 

the green rolls blanks tonight....

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But why?  I'm asking seriously - I'm curious why it isn't more balanced to simply reroll the correct amount in both instances.

You don't get to keep the results you like if you rolled too many.  Why should you get to if you rolled too few but like the ones you did roll?

What about people who roll one die at a time?

 

 

 

I hate that, but there is noting again it.   It just makes the game last longer and burns time.   I would say that is slow play.

 

I once played a guy with soontier and he had 5 and 6 green dice.   He rolled 1 at a time on everyone.    It took like 5 minutes, because he would shake his dice for 30 seconds each time.    It was crazy!!!!

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But why?  I'm asking seriously - I'm curious why it isn't more balanced to simply reroll the correct amount in both instances.

You don't get to keep the results you like if you rolled too many.  Why should you get to if you rolled too few but like the ones you did roll?

What about people who roll one die at a time?

 

 

 

I hate that, but there is noting again it.   It just makes the game last longer and burns time.   I would say that is slow play.

 

I once played a guy with soontier and he had 5 and 6 green dice.   He rolled 1 at a time on everyone.    It took like 5 minutes, because he would shake his dice for 30 seconds each time.    It was crazy!!!!

 

Why didn't you get the TO?

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