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VaynMaanen

Dice Etiquette - What To Do When Too Many Dice are Rolled?

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"When rolling too many dice, there's that awkward question of which result(s) would never have happened. Some people have said that if all the dice come up the same they'll just ignore one and move on, but I don't generally like this method. Since which die result we remove could have a lot of impact on the game, I tend to prefer simply agreeing that we reroll the correct number and  ̶p̶r̶e̶t̶e̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶c̶r̶e̶w̶e̶d̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶r̶o̶l̶l̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶a̶p̶p̶e̶n̶e̶d̶ never forgive.  Never forget.  Burn.  Rage, until the end of days, consumed by a single thought.  ​Vengeance" 

 

As Hockeyzombie has stated above.

 

Our TO only allows this.

Fixed.

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I just find it fascinating, because it creates a double standard.

Now - I've seen some very concise arguments for why it is a logical, or perhaps even justified double standard, don't get me wrong.

But it does handle one distinct situation:  "I rolled the incorrect number of dice" in two unique ways, depending on whether that number was too many, or too few.

I guess perhaps I'm simply finding it interesting that more people aren't in favor of one blanket rule for that situation:

If you rolled an incorrect number of dice, discard the result and reroll the proper number.

 

The rules also expressly permit rolling dice in groups smaller than the total amount that you are entitled to. 

As long as the missing dice are noticed before moving on to the next step, there is no reason not to roll them.

 

Where in the rules does it say you can choose to roll fewer dice than required?

 

 

 

You can't opt to roll less dice than the total, you just don't need to roll them all at the same time. This is a game that comes with less than is needed for a basic game using only the components in the core set. It is likely that most player will end up needing more dice than are included in the very first combat exchange they have. 

 

If it's permissible by the rules to roll dice in batches then it really shouldn't matter that one die is rolled after the others. The number of dice clanking together and the butterfly effect it has on the outcome of the dice are not important to the game. 

 

 

Page 21:

If players would roll more dice than the maximum number they have available, keep track of the results showing and reroll the dice necessary to equal the total number of dice the player would have rolled all at once. Note that these dice are not considered rerolled for the purposes modifying dice (see “Modifying Dice Results” on page 12).
Edited by WWHSD

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Here's a response from a fellow Tournament Director about why that system is used:

 

 
So you want the resolution of this to reduce the incentive for anyone to "accidentally on purpose" over-roll in the hopes of not getting caught.

By giving the other player the choice, you actually streamline play (reduce the amount of rolling that needs to be done) and also provide some incentive to get your dice right the first time.

 

 

 

This. If my opponent has a problem rerolling the correct number of dice after rolling too many on his roll, I might accidentally on purpose roll 6 dice every roll the rest of the game to drive home the point.

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When too many are rolled the default should be to pretend the roll never happened and roll again with the correct number of dice.  The ONLY exception I'd make to this is when all dice produced the same initial result in which case you could just drop the extras but his is only in the case of moving things along quickly; consistency would say roll everything again.

 

If too few dice are rolled then you just roll additional dice to make up the difference.  If you don't have enough dice (roll 6 dice for defense when you only have three!) you record the initial rolls and reuse the dice.

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Here's a response from a fellow Tournament Director about why that system is used:

Well he at least gets the fact that rerolling doesn't actually help anyone if done consistently...

The idea someone will roll too many dice and hope to get away with it. I find that hard to accept, there's far too great a chance for people to notice it for it to actually be an effective way to cheat.

But by giving the other person a choice, you are penalizing someone for a simple mechanical error, they picked up too many dice. Because if you give someone a choice, then will always choose what's best for them, which means you are reducing the random nature of the game.

You are creating an inherently unfair situation just because someone picked up one too many dice.

Edit: Also it seems to me that the last time we had this discussion, someone one emailed FFG and they said the dice should be rerolled. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember someone posting an email from Alex about it.

Edited by VanorDM

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Tabletop games like this are interested in die RESULTS, not probabilities. Therefore, the determination of whether or not to reroll any or all dice should be guided by one goal, which is to represent the original roll as much as possible. I don't mean what the original roll should have been in terms of number of dice, but what result actually came face up on the roll in question.

 

Too many dice that all rolled the same result: drop extraneous dice until the correct amount are left. Neither player suffers or benefits from this, and the integrity of the actual original results is maintained.

 

Too many dice but there is more than one type of result: drop extraneous dice until the correct amount are left, chosen by the opposite player. This option is the only one that keeps the original results in play and is only a disadvantage to the player at fault. Further, it uses the actual die results from the original roll. Since it would be impossible to determine which die results are legitimate and which are not, and since a re-roll has a chance of putting the non-offending player at a disdvantage, this is the single best option.

 

Too few dice, any combination of results, before the opposing player has chosen to modify any die results: roll dice until the correct number are in play, continue as normal. Neither player suffers or benefits from this.

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If you screw up the number of dice to roll, and it's noticed/caught, your opponent decides how to fix it. Whether that's an entire reroll, or removing an extra result, or adding an extra die, it's your opponents choice. Sorta like picking a red move when your stressed :)

This is how I play for definite. Sure some of the options might disadvantage me, but it was my mistake and therefore I pay the price.

Conversely if my opponent makes a mistake like that I'll always let them choose how to fix it unless they specifically want me to in which case I'd choose the option that seems the most neutral.

This is for both casual play and tournaments. Being a nice opponent is far more important to me than any advantage I'm maybe able to gain.

Edited by Richard_Thomas_

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Tabletop games like this are interested in die RESULTS, not probabilities.

Since your whole premise is completely wrong, the rest naturally is also wrong. The one and only point of dice in these types of games is to add random chance to the game. Anything that reduces the random nature of dice is an advantage that must be paid for somehow.

Once again, the only fair way to deal with too many dice is to reroll. Anything else is going to favor one player over another which means the random nature of the game is no longer random, but is skewed in the favor of one player, due to a simple mechanical error on the other person's part.

The fact that so many people don't get this... Makes me glad I'm the TO at most events I go to.

Edited by VanorDM

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The first thing I say at the start of every tournament (as a TO) is I will hug anyone that feels the need to cheat in X-wing.

 

That being said, at bigger games (such as Store Championships or Preview events where winners get pre-releases) it is my responsibility to stop cheating.  I can't assume that people "just make mistakes".  Nor does that even matter in the grand scheme of things.  YES, it is encouraging cheating to allow over rolls to go unpunished.  As mental fatigue sets in, an over roller will eventually get away with it.  This is why I state the same resolution every time I'm asked about it.  If I have to get involved, the opposing player gets to choose which die count.  I STRONGLY recommend that you get a TO involved once your opponent has "accidentally" rolled too many dice by the 3rd time.

 

Friendly games?  Heck ya.... re-roll those dice.  But in higher level tournaments, just following of the rules comes before "friendliness".

Edited by Stone37

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Frankly, most people don't understand the inherent validity in "Yes, I rolled 4, but since they were all evades I don't need to reroll."  It's true, but so many people don't understand why it's true, that ...

 

The best rule is an invariable one:

 

"If you roll too many dice, you completely reroll, using the correct number."

 

You may want to take it even further:

 

"If you roll the wrong number of dice, you completely reroll, using the correct number."

 

Finally, in my house there is a rule for all gaming: "If the die is even arguably cocked, it's cocked.  Reroll it."

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YES, it is encouraging cheating to allow over rolls to go unpunished.

No it really isn't. Because there is just as much chance of someone not noticing it regardless of how you handle it.

Also you're not following the rules, since the rules don't actually cover this.

By letting a player chose you have given them an advantage and quite possibly let them win the game, rather than simply rerolling the dice which benefits no one, and gives no one an advantage.

If someone has done it 3-4 times in a row, then the TO should deal with it by giving them a warning, not by helping the other guy win the game.

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I prefer to take away the best result since I hate when someone re-roll just to get a better result, but I think when it comes to misstakes in general it's usually best to leave it to the opponent on how they want to fix it.

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"If you roll the wrong number of dice, you completely reroll, using the correct number."

Which again doesn't follow the rules in the rulebook. You are allowed to roll a single die 5 times, or 2 die twice and a 3rd, or all 5 at once, whatever you wish to do.

There will after all be times in which someone may not have enough dice in the first place. You can't exactly force them to go and buy more.

Edit: I give up... I emailed FFG about this and will post the answer when I get it.

Edited by VanorDM

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"If you roll the wrong number of dice, you completely reroll, using the correct number."

Which again doesn't follow the rules in the rulebook. You are allowed to roll a single die 5 times, or 2 die twice and a 3rd, or all 5 at once, whatever you wish to do.

There will after all be times in which someone may not have enough dice in the first place. You can't exactly force them to go and buy more.

Edit: I give up... I emailed FFG about this and will post the answer when I get it.

 

 

WTF are you talking about?  That's not even in question.  I don't care if they only own one red and one green and reroll them all they want, as long as they track results.  All that's under discussion is how many dice results are generated for a roll.

Edited by Jeff Wilder

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YES, it is encouraging cheating to allow over rolls to go unpunished.

No it really isn't. Because there is just as much chance of someone not noticing it regardless of how you handle it.

Also you're not following the rules, since the rules don't actually cover this.

By letting a player chose you have given them an advantage and quite possibly let them win the game, rather than simply rerolling the dice which benefits no one, and gives no one an advantage.

If someone has done it 3-4 times in a row, then the TO should deal with it by giving them a warning, not by helping the other guy win the game.

 

 

Obviously, the simple language of "The TO has the final say" covers just about everything in the rule-book.  And I won't argue that a TO could rule the way you do.  But let's play some legalese here.  On what grounds (besides the TO has final say) would you state the TO has the authority to dictate a re-roll of too many dice?  What could you cite in the rule book that would cause you to think that is a valid interpretation of how to handle a breaking of the rules that is not directly covered currently by the rules documents?

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There is no reason to act in a punitive manner towards singular instances of a mistake that has near to no chance of being able to advantage the offending player. Repeat instances are another matter, but even then a TO should not be effecting the outcome of a game in the manner some posters are suggesting. If a TO actually thinks a player is purposefully rolling too many dice, they should be removed from the event. If a player is repeatedly doing it (and the TO does not feel it is purposeful ) a TO should offer warning, then a game loss if the behavior isn't rectified, and then a DQ if it still continues.

The only answer is to simply re-roll the correct number of dice.

Edited by ScottieATF

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That's not even in question.

Based on your statement it sure seems to be. Because last time I checked too few dice is still the wrong number of dice.

 

 

You don't seem to even know you're talking about something completely different than the rest of us are.

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Obviously, the simple language of "The TO has the final say" covers just about everything in the rule-book.  And I won't argue that a TO could rule the way you do.  But let's play some legalese here.  On what grounds (besides the TO has final say) would you state the TO has the authority to dictate a re-roll of too many dice?  What could you cite in the rule book that would cause you to think that is a valid interpretation of how to handle a breaking of the rules that is not directly covered currently by the rules documents?

 

The rules treat this roll as if it had never happened. That is, if a B-wing rolls four dice on a range 2 attack, the rules did not permit that roll; it has not happened. The B-wing must now roll its attack using a pool of three red dice.

 

On the other hand, if the B-wing rolls three dice as part of a Range 1 attack, the rules handle this situation perfectly. The roll is still in progress, and the B-wing's player must roll its fourth die before the defender rolls his defense dice.

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YES, it is encouraging cheating to allow over rolls to go unpunished.

No it really isn't. Because there is just as much chance of someone not noticing it regardless of how you handle it.

Also you're not following the rules, since the rules don't actually cover this.

By letting a player chose you have given them an advantage and quite possibly let them win the game, rather than simply rerolling the dice which benefits no one, and gives no one an advantage.

If someone has done it 3-4 times in a row, then the TO should deal with it by giving them a warning, not by helping the other guy win the game.

 

Obviously, the simple language of "The TO has the final say" covers just about everything in the rule-book.  And I won't argue that a TO could rule the way you do.  But let's play some legalese here.  On what grounds (besides the TO has final say) would you state the TO has the authority to dictate a re-roll of too many dice?  What could you cite in the rule book that would cause you to think that is a valid interpretation of how to handle a breaking of the rules that is not directly covered currently by the rules documents?

The Rulebook tells you to roll the correct number of dice, so any TO would simply enforce the basic rule on the matter. Why would a TO do anything else?

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Obviously, the simple language of "The TO has the final say" covers just about everything in the rule-book.  And I won't argue that a TO could rule the way you do.  But let's play some legalese here.  On what grounds (besides the TO has final say) would you state the TO has the authority to dictate a re-roll of too many dice?  What could you cite in the rule book that would cause you to think that is a valid interpretation of how to handle a breaking of the rules that is not directly covered currently by the rules documents?

 

The rules treat this roll as if it had never happened. That is, if a B-wing rolls four dice on a range 2 attack, the rules did not permit that roll; it has not happened. The B-wing must now roll its attack using a pool of three red dice.

Can you cite this please? 

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Obviously, the simple language of "The TO has the final say" covers just about everything in the rule-book.

Sure you can rule that way, I'm not questioning that, the rules don't actually address this in anyway, so every TO has to come up with something themselves.

I'm pointing out that letting someone chose what dice to keep, is skewing the game in the favor of one player, because another player made a very simple mistake. And that is IMO not something a TO should ever do. A TO should sorta be like a doctor.. The first goal is to do no harm.

The most fair way for everyone is to reroll every time.

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Did the roll happen in accordance to the rules? If the answer is no then as far as the rules are concern it is completely irrelevant. The rules tell you, in the vast majority of instances, what you can do not the infinite things you can not do.

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Tabletop games like this are interested in die RESULTS, not probabilities.

Since your whole premise is completely wrong, the rest naturally is also wrong. The one and only point of dice in these types of games is to add random chance to the game. Anything that reduces the random nature of dice is an advantage that must be paid for somehow.

Once again, the only fair way to deal with too many dice is to reroll. Anything else is going to favor one player over another which means the random nature of the game is no longer random, but is skewed in the favor of one player, due to a simple mechanical error on the other person's part.

The fact that so many people don't get this... Makes me glad I'm the TO at most events I go to.

 

Let's say Player A rolls four dice on an attack, which was one die too many. His results are hit, hit, miss, eyeball. You as TO come over and ask him to re-roll. His new results are crit, hit, hit which, barring certain card combos, is a worse result for his opponent. In this instance, your rule of always re-rolling has been a disadvantage to the other player in terms of its actual effect on the game. No, a re-roll won't always result in a worse outcome for the opponent, or a better outcome for that matter, but either way this game depends on actual results to determine those outcomes. Probabilities are great, but probabilities stop mattering once dice hit the table. At that point, it's about salvaging the roll as much as possible. It's fine with me if we don't see eye to eye on this, but don't just dismiss my argument out of hand.

 

For what it's worth, when these situations come up and I'm playing someone unfamiliar I just let them decide how to resolve it, it's not worth the time arguing in my opinion. In my usual play group, however, letting the non-offender remove dice is how we do it.

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