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VaynMaanen

Dice Etiquette - What To Do When Too Many Dice are Rolled?

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For consistency's sake, it's best to reroll all if they roll too many. If they roll too few, I'm fine with them adding dice to get to the right total. In that rare corner case where it's obvious that they succeeded on the roll easily (e.g., the 4 evades scenario), then I'll often just accept it. It seems EXTREMELY douchey to try to argue about having more/less dice rolled will affect the outcome and making them reroll them all. That being said, those corner cases are extremely rare in being that obvious, so rerolling them all is the better solution.

 

Much more frequent is disputes over what is or is not a cocked dice, particularly when only slightly cocked (like on an asteroid marker). Far too many opponents try to let successes lie and reroll failures which is pretty much the definition of cheating.

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I very much agree with the sentiment that if you roll all the same result the re-rolling is silly.

If you roll 4 dice instead of 3 and get all blanks your opponent isn't going to want you to re-roll either

I would only force a re-roll if there's a mix of dice results.

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Note that I'm not arguing that rolling a missing die by itself is *better* than rerolling the entire thing, only that it is sufficient and acceptable.

Ultimately, the important thing is that you and your opponent agree on a consistent treatment - either *always* roll just the missing dice or *always* reroll the entire thing; don't pick and choose or you'll end up cherry-picking results (or at least giving the appearance of doing so).

The same goes for all these little sportsmanship issues that the core rules don't cover: how to determine if a die is cocked, etc.

Edited by LeonardDukes

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I appreciate all the responses!

For cocked dice I've been taught the method is to place another die on the top face and if the die rolls, then reroll the die, if it stays, then its solidly on that result.

Does anyone else use this or another method to check?

Edited by VaynMaanen

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Alright, you roll 4 dice, should have rolled 5. It doesn't matter what 4 dice those are, the 5th is still the 5th. it effects only it's own result.

 

Now, If you've rolled 5 dice and should have rolled 4, then which dice do you reduce? Do you remove your best? Your worst? At random? Who chooses. Hence total reroll where necessary.

 

There is some flawed logic here.  When I TO, my rule of thumb is that if you mess up then you are at the mercy of your opponent.  Dice have been rolled.  If you forget one (the nice thing to do is to let your opponent roll the missed die), too bad.  If you roll too many, your opponent chooses which die to cancel.  Are these rules nice?  Maybe not, but they are just and mathematically fair to the player who has been wronged. 

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2 trains of thought exist on this one:

- Reroll the proper number

- Remove the "best" dice results until down to the proper number.

Honestly I'm pretty comfortable with either scenario.

Typically there is a clear remedy but a conversation normally needs to take place. I think the vast majority of players are going to subscribe to the re-roll all unwritten rule.

That being said I think the guilty party needs to give the option to the other player on how they would like the matter resolved (within reason of course).

If I am the guilty party and I roll all blanks I am not going to claim that I deserve a re-roll.

The game state and situation definitely is a factor and should have a reasonable resolution given the specific circumstances.

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Our dice rules are simple. If you roll too many, reroll proper amount entirely, unless all blank because then it doesn't really matter.

If a dice falls off the play space, it gets rerolled. No question. If you accidentally drop one out of your hand while shaking, it gets rerolled. They all go together

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I just find it fascinating, because it creates a double standard.

Now - I've seen some very concise arguments for why it is a logical, or perhaps even justified double standard, don't get me wrong.

But it does handle one distinct situation:  "I rolled the incorrect number of dice" in two unique ways, depending on whether that number was too many, or too few.

I guess perhaps I'm simply finding it interesting that more people aren't in favor of one blanket rule for that situation:

If you rolled an incorrect number of dice, discard the result and reroll the proper number.

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I appreciate all the responses!

For cocked dice I've been taught the method is to place another die on the top face and if the die rolls, then reroll the die, if it stays, then its solidly on that result.

Does anyone else use this or another method to check?

If it's on an asteroid it's basically impossible to be cocked enough to matter much so I only begin considering it if it's somehow on a ship. D8s don't hold up to the dice stack test as cleanly as d6s so I avoid using that for xwing.

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Alright, you roll 4 dice, should have rolled 5. It doesn't matter what 4 dice those are, the 5th is still the 5th. it effects only it's own result.

 

Now, If you've rolled 5 dice and should have rolled 4, then which dice do you reduce? Do you remove your best? Your worst? At random? Who chooses. Hence total reroll where necessary.

 

There is some flawed logic here.  When I TO, my rule of thumb is that if you mess up then you are at the mercy of your opponent.  Dice have been rolled.  If you forget one (the nice thing to do is to let your opponent roll the missed die), too bad.  If you roll too many, your opponent chooses which die to cancel.  Are these rules nice?  Maybe not, but they are just and mathematically fair to the player who has been wronged.

How on earth is that mathematically fair even a little bit? What you're saying is 'if you make a minor mistake in how many dice you grab, you will automatically roll 1 fewer hits or evades'.

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I appreciate all the responses!

For cocked dice I've been taught the method is to place another die on the top face and if the die rolls, then reroll the die, if it stays, then its solidly on that result.

Does anyone else use this or another method to check?

 

If the die is not laying flat and I (the TO) am called to get involved I ALWAYS call that it should be re-rolled. 

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I appreciate all the responses!

For cocked dice I've been taught the method is to place another die on the top face and if the die rolls, then reroll the die, if it stays, then its solidly on that result.

Does anyone else use this or another method to check?

 

If the die is not laying flat and I (the TO) am called to get involved I ALWAYS call that it should be re-rolled. 

 

I agree with this:  I think the first step is consulting with your opponent to see if they will allow the result to stand; if they believe it is cocked enough to be questionable or is basically flat.  But if there is a disagreement and the TO is called over and there is any question of it being even mildly cocked, I think they're going to err on the side of rerolling it.

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I just find it fascinating, because it creates a double standard.

Now - I've seen some very concise arguments for why it is a logical, or perhaps even justified double standard, don't get me wrong.

But it does handle one distinct situation: "I rolled the incorrect number of dice" in two unique ways, depending on whether that number was too many, or too few.

I guess perhaps I'm simply finding it interesting that more people aren't in favor of one blanket rule for that situation:

If you rolled an incorrect number of dice, discard the result and reroll the proper number.

One could argue (I won't) that it's not a double standard in responding to the problem "I rolled the incorrect number of dice" but, rather, two different answers to two different problems: "I rolled too many dice" versus "I have not yet rolled all of my dice."

I've got a friend who likes to roll his dice one at a time, even if he's rolling 5. I guess he likes to build suspense or something. In his case, he hasn't really "rolled his dice" until they're all on the table.

The same could be said for someone who rolled 2 dice but should be rolling 3 or more. If the game play hasn't moved on beyond the actual roll (i.e. no dice have been modified/rerolled), what's the difference between rolling the remaining dice and someone who prefers to roll all their dice one at a time, other than intent?

Edited by LeonardDukes

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Alright, you roll 4 dice, should have rolled 5. It doesn't matter what 4 dice those are, the 5th is still the 5th. it effects only it's own result.

 

Now, If you've rolled 5 dice and should have rolled 4, then which dice do you reduce? Do you remove your best? Your worst? At random? Who chooses. Hence total reroll where necessary.

 

There is some flawed logic here.  When I TO, my rule of thumb is that if you mess up then you are at the mercy of your opponent.  Dice have been rolled.  If you forget one (the nice thing to do is to let your opponent roll the missed die), too bad.  If you roll too many, your opponent chooses which die to cancel.  Are these rules nice?  Maybe not, but they are just and mathematically fair to the player who has been wronged.

How on earth is that mathematically fair even a little bit? What you're saying is 'if you make a minor mistake in how many dice you grab, you will automatically roll 1 fewer hits or evades'.

 

As A TO, I am not a legislator, the Pope, or an executive power.  I'm a judge.  I can only judge by the rules given and what is in front of me.  Re-rolling (in this case) changes results that are already there.  What should be done with the dice that have been rolled?  That is the question I must answer.  To re-roll is to disavow everything that has already been done.  It would not be fair to the person who has been wronged for 3 blank greens and an evade to be re-rolled to 3 evades.Results are already on the table.  Just like when a player chooses a red move on their dial with stress, the opposing player chooses which die count and which are the "extra".

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Alright, you roll 4 dice, should have rolled 5. It doesn't matter what 4 dice those are, the 5th is still the 5th. it effects only it's own result.

 

Now, If you've rolled 5 dice and should have rolled 4, then which dice do you reduce? Do you remove your best? Your worst? At random? Who chooses. Hence total reroll where necessary.

 

Edit: Ninja'ed

 

For that extra dice, you can roll ONE die. Whatever result is rolled, you can treat it as one of those already rolled, and remove it from the pool. (For example, roll one die and get a hit? You remove the a hit from the original pool.)

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I like your suggestion MegaSilver.  I was thinking that the person who did not roll gets to choose which dice are counted up to the correct number.  This would be similar to the rule on revealing a red maneuver on a dial when you are already stressed.  The opponent gets to choose the maneuver for you.

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Alright, you roll 4 dice, should have rolled 5. It doesn't matter what 4 dice those are, the 5th is still the 5th. it effects only it's own result.

Now, If you've rolled 5 dice and should have rolled 4, then which dice do you reduce? Do you remove your best? Your worst? At random? Who chooses. Hence total reroll where necessary.

There is some flawed logic here. When I TO, my rule of thumb is that if you mess up then you are at the mercy of your opponent. Dice have been rolled. If you forget one (the nice thing to do is to let your opponent roll the missed die), too bad. If you roll too many, your opponent chooses which die to cancel. Are these rules nice? Maybe not, but they are just and mathematically fair to the player who has been wronged.

How on earth is that mathematically fair even a little bit? What you're saying is 'if you make a minor mistake in how many dice you grab, you will automatically roll 1 fewer hits or evades'.

As A TO, I am not a legislator, the Pope, or an executive power. I'm a judge. I can only judge by the rules given and what is in front of me. Re-rolling (in this case) changes results that are already there. What should be done with the dice that have been rolled? That is the question I must answer. To re-roll is to disavow everything that has already been done. It would not be fair to the person who has been wronged for 3 blank greens and an evade to be re-rolled to 3 evades.Results are already on the table. Just like when a player chooses a red move on their dial with stress, the opposing player chooses which die count and which are the "extra".
I'll admit that when I saw the rule for resolving red maneuvers while stressed, I was a little surprised at the potential harshness of the official solution.

On reflection, though, I realized that short of random maneuver selection, there's really no fair way to resolve the error, since it's entirely likely that the ship with the erroneous maneuver is activating after at least one other ship, so the game state has already changed since the Planning Phase.

In the case of an erroneous roll, though, if it's caught right away then the game state hasn't changed, and I see no reason not to simply "rewind" to the last legal game state, which is when the dice were in the player's hand.

"Fairness" of the erroneous roll changing to another result shouldn't enter into it, since the erroneous roll, by definition, can have no effect on the game state.

Edited by LeonardDukes

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I think the opponent should have the right to choose. If someone rolls terribly with an extra dice, then re-rolls and score more hits/evades then their blunder was their boon. If my opponent rolls terribly and rolled extra dice then I say it's my call to let it slide or not. If they roll well with extra dice I should have the right to make them re-roll. You don't have to be consistent, you have to be fair. It's fair that if you make the mistake the opponent should dictate the course of action, not dissimilar to the event when a red maneuver is chosen while stressed.

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I just find it fascinating, because it creates a double standard.

Now - I've seen some very concise arguments for why it is a logical, or perhaps even justified double standard, don't get me wrong.

But it does handle one distinct situation:  "I rolled the incorrect number of dice" in two unique ways, depending on whether that number was too many, or too few.

I guess perhaps I'm simply finding it interesting that more people aren't in favor of one blanket rule for that situation:

If you rolled an incorrect number of dice, discard the result and reroll the proper number.

 

The rules also expressly permit rolling dice in groups smaller than the total amount that you are entitled to. 

As long as the missing dice are noticed before moving on to the next step, there is no reason not to roll them.

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Alright, you roll 4 dice, should have rolled 5. It doesn't matter what 4 dice those are, the 5th is still the 5th. it effects only it's own result.

 

Now, If you've rolled 5 dice and should have rolled 4, then which dice do you reduce? Do you remove your best? Your worst? At random? Who chooses. Hence total reroll where necessary.

 

There is some flawed logic here.  When I TO, my rule of thumb is that if you mess up then you are at the mercy of your opponent.  Dice have been rolled.  If you forget one (the nice thing to do is to let your opponent roll the missed die), too bad.  If you roll too many, your opponent chooses which die to cancel.  Are these rules nice?  Maybe not, but they are just and mathematically fair to the player who has been wronged. 

 

 

How is it flawed?

Reducing with dice is inherently harder than adding.

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Ultimately, the important thing is that you and your opponent agree on a consistent treatment - either *always* roll just the missing dice or *always* reroll the entire thing; don't pick and choose or you'll end up cherry-picking results (or at least giving the appearance of doing so).

 

The opponent had an advantage (unintentional or not) by rolling too many dice. Therefore, the other player should be able to get an advantage back to have them reroll the right amount or just keep the current results. You can also roll another die to determine what one could be discarded, but that one can be more complicated to explain in a tourney setting.

 

For example, at a tourney my opponent rolled too one many green dice by mistake. He was about to pick up the dice and reroll. At this point, I told him I'll have him keep the result, since I had scored a hit anyway. He rolled too much (unintentionally) and gained an advantage, but this still didn't help him block a hit. It was therefore in my best interest to keep the result to score the hit rather than give him the chance to block it.

 

Another miniatures game I play (Heroscape) uses a similar rule for tournaments.

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Alright, you roll 4 dice, should have rolled 5. It doesn't matter what 4 dice those are, the 5th is still the 5th. it effects only it's own result.

 

Now, If you've rolled 5 dice and should have rolled 4, then which dice do you reduce? Do you remove your best? Your worst? At random? Who chooses. Hence total reroll where necessary.

 

There is some flawed logic here.  When I TO, my rule of thumb is that if you mess up then you are at the mercy of your opponent.  Dice have been rolled.  If you forget one (the nice thing to do is to let your opponent roll the missed die), too bad.  If you roll too many, your opponent chooses which die to cancel.  Are these rules nice?  Maybe not, but they are just and mathematically fair to the player who has been wronged. 

 

 

How is it flawed?

Reducing with dice is inherently harder than adding.

 

 

This term "fair" keeps being used.  Fair is NOT a re-roll.  If the original die did not inherently favor the offender, then they should not get another chance to gain more favorable results.  Furthermore, consistency is an important part of fair rules.  Because allowing re-rolls could lead to a more adventitious result for the offender, re-rolls should never be allowed.  The results of the dice are already on the table.  If there are too many dice, the opposing player chooses which dice to disavow. 

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I just find it fascinating, because it creates a double standard.

Now - I've seen some very concise arguments for why it is a logical, or perhaps even justified double standard, don't get me wrong.

But it does handle one distinct situation:  "I rolled the incorrect number of dice" in two unique ways, depending on whether that number was too many, or too few.

I guess perhaps I'm simply finding it interesting that more people aren't in favor of one blanket rule for that situation:

If you rolled an incorrect number of dice, discard the result and reroll the proper number.

 

there is no double standard

 

 

assuming we're on the roll (and not past it, in which case missed opportunity is missed) and so-and-so's X-wing rolls 2 reds instead of 3, the opponent notices and reminds him. The X-wing then just rolls another die. Nice and easy.

 

 

Can't exactly do that if he rolls 4 outside of range one.

 

 

either way, if you **** up you're at the mercy of your opponent (which means casual means is a simple re-do, while competitive games could **** you over; it's not on the opponent to have to keep reminding you how many dice you get)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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