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Papa Midnight

Should tournament results decide the direction of L5R?

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Absolutely. People who don't like this element have plenty of other CCGs to choose from.

 

Yeah, and they did. Which is part of why L5R is at the pass that it is, I'll wager.

 

 

 

You're forgetting the fact that L5R as a CCG made it to the 20 year mark in a field with at least three 800 pound gorillas, and at least a half dozen promising upstarts each year.  Yes, it had issues, especially in recent arcs, but the interactive story, and the loyalty that it built, is what kept it going for as long as it did, especially considering the resources AEG had available.

 

If a local burger joint located between a McDonald's and a Wendy's served burgers for 20 years and then decided to sell to someone who could afford to renovate, redecorate, update the menu, (and maybe even relocate), I'd consider those 20 years a success, not a failure.  I own a business that is also a local brand.  I hope in 20 years I'll be able to sell it to someone who can take it regional - or even national - if I'm not able to get it there myself.  

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I haven't read the thread entirely either, but here's my thoughts on the idea in general-

 

'Direction' is rather open-ended and implies a pretty big scope. I'm good with tourney wins having an effect on parts of the story. That said, I don't think those effects should be particularly big. Who wins a certain duel? Sure. Which clan's lands get a fancy new shrine? Sure. Who's samurai takes down some big bad monster? Yes. Which clan wins the Topaz Championship? Sure. Heck, even the Emerald or Jade Championship.

 

Stuff like that I'm fine with. When you're dealing with situations that can really go either/any way without it taking the story somewhere that doesn't make any sense. Like the aforementioned instance of the Crane Clan getting enlightened. :P

Tourney wins should offer clear, specific prizes as far as impact on the story. A player's hard-fought win should not be able to be twisted into something it isn't. They should have an actual impact on the story/the game. That impact could be something as simple as references in a fiction, or a card's flavor text. Or it could be something, like a new Emerald Champion, that is going to have more obvious, lasting repurcussions.

That's just some general thoughts on this. Mind you, I'm not a L5R CCG player beyond the occasional, and very rare, casual game. The CCG tourney scene is not something I'm particularly knowledgeable about. But from an L5R RPG players standpoint, and that of someone that would like to see both the CCG and the RPG continue to be successful, that'd be what I think. ^_^

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Following the store tournament kits, I'd imagine most store prizes at this level would be just votes for some event or other, similar change in the story. Something along the lines of voting for the emperor's actions on a specific issue.

 

Of course, besides all the goodies that are usually inside the kits. And I expect some excellent goodies.

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When you're dealing with situations that can really go either/any way without it taking the story somewhere that doesn't make any sense. Like the aforementioned instance of the Crane Clan getting enlightened. :P

Are you suggesting the Crane should not be able to enlighten? Why not? They have shugenja too, not to mention mastery of the tea ceremony, the only skill in the RPG that uses one's Void rank.

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When you're dealing with situations that can really go either/any way without it taking the story somewhere that doesn't make any sense. Like the aforementioned instance of the Crane Clan getting enlightened. :P

Are you suggesting the Crane should not be able to enlighten? Why not? They have shugenja too, not to mention mastery of the tea ceremony, the only skill in the RPG that uses one's Void rank.

 

Meditation.

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It means the crane decks were so dominant at one point they won the vast majority of the tournaments which had a prize in which one personality in your deck enlightened. It is just a symbol of the clunky game balance L5R had.

À more recent exemple would be how the mantis actually ran out of symbols to save...

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Meditation.

Touché.

I'll be honest, though: I like believing that there are many roads to enlightenment, not just the cliché ascetic path. One can find enlightenment anywhere: in a poem, a beautiful painting, or a rippling stream. Sometimes we find what we seek without ever realizing we were seeking it.

Edited by MarthWMaster

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Meditation.

Touché.

I'll be honest, though: I like believing that there are many roads to enlightenment, not just the cliché ascetic path. One can find enlightenment anywhere: in a poem, a beautiful painting, or a rippling stream. Sometimes we find what we seek without ever realizing we were seeking it.

 

And I agree with you. That situation with the Crane was purely an instance wherein a dominant deck/faction in the CCG, coupled with what storyline prize was being offered, led to some things occurring in the story that made very little sense.

A Crane becoming enlightened because they've come to truly understand a meaningful poem or a beautiful painting? Awesome. All for that. It happening over and over again because the Crane players happened to have the best deck when a bunch of 'who gets to be enlightened?' tournaments were going on? Less good. :P

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Siuations like that with the Crane are showing why I don´t want such a dominant interaction with the Story from the LCG part of L5R anymore. With such dominant influence as the CCG had the story was more driven by the mechanics of the cards and which clan had to happend the most powerful deck and not from the belives and achivements of each single clan. Look at the Crane at early Ivory or the Mantis in emperor I think the tournment vicotries should not longer be the deciding factor when it comes to influence to the story. 

 

What would be a option to make the vicotry stil juciy would be to give possibilities whcih fit the clan and have a not so dominant influence of the story like getting a marriage etc but things like naming the new Epmress/Emperor should be not soley decided though LCG tournement vitories cause this will not help to create a good story. 

What I would wish for would be that we finaly include the RPG a bit more and give these people credit too cause they care for their clans, story and setting. They are also part of the game and therefore should also have a possibility to influence the game they love with their decisions

So for them also creating some events where they can inlfuence the story besides the wintercourt would be a great chance and if done via the internet it also could give a chance to the people to help their clan which don´t can go to tournements. 

 

I think I would love to have a 50/50 split with the influence here ´but reduce the overall times when you can inlfuence it and also give conrete options out and don´t let them so much freedoom as before.  

I believe this model would be good for both parties and could bring new balance and ways of influence to the game. 

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I could do without so very much being determined by tournament wins, yes indeed.  If only to eliminate at least some opportunity by folks to comment -- when others are unhappy with a choice/decision/direction and choose to voice their disappointment -- that the folks voicing their opinions essentially have no right to, and if they wanted to have something else they should go win their own tournaments. 

 

This of course is a truly wonderful thing to say to others, including those who may never get to a tournament for financial/geographical reasons, and surely does so much to foster discussion besides.

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It would also be nice to see a greater emphasis on "story direction" prizes; that is, rathr than simply benefiting his favorite clan in some way, the winner of the tournament gets to choose (from a predetermined set of options) how a particular aspect of the story will develop; e.g. Will the Empire know peace or war in the coming months? Is the new Emperor a tactician, a spiritualist, or a teacher? And so forth.

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Well, and doing that (reining the impact and/or number of Story prizes) other thinks will become more be enjoyable. I distintly remember in a couple forums and conversations the fear Onyx's Paths produced  (specially, but not only, in the Spider): "How will I choose a path if I am left to the whims of the design to actually DO something". It was a consideration: "well, I don't like this path, but it will have more potents cards to affect the storyline as my clan will be more powerful...so be it"

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Considering that investment in the storyline is by no means linked with ability in the card game... I often get the impression that tournament winners were happier about having their names on a given card than the story effects of whatever they picked.

 

So....I'd dial it back.

 

 

Clan votes are one thing. "Let's kill Tsudao" is something else.

 

Whatever else people may think of the guys who collectively dictated the story results of Gencon 2003, let me tell you that they cared more about the story than almost any player around today, and the reason is that tournaments actually did direct major events within the story. It wasn't just L5R Mad Libs back then.

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Well when I Run L5R, I've been running a 'Scorpion Victory' Setting (say hello to Shoju II everyone) for sometime for some time. I do datamine the books and setting stuff for ideas (I'm not getting paid). Tying the card game to the storyline is a razors edge, and people who will just want to screw with the setting (I'm looking at you, Shadowlands  & Tainted deck players) will pop up (there is historical precident). on the other hand, you can end up with some interesting results from tourneys. so check you results and see if it looks interesting

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Well when I Run L5R, I've been running a 'Scorpion Victory' Setting (say hello to Shoju II everyone) for sometime for some time.

I did the same thing once, for the same reason as you, with the distinction that I based my Scorpion Victory on what would have happened in-universe if the Scorpion playerbase had not honored their friendship with the Dragon at the tail end of Race for the Throne, resolving all things as though the Scorpion won the Celestial Tournament, even going so far as to subtly imply in my introduction that this was the "real" Rokugan, while also leaving open the possibility that it was an alternate version hanging out in Yume-do like KYD. (For those who don't know, the Race for the Throne contest held that one Clan would lose its Great Clan status at the end of the arc, the question of which would suffer this being dependent on the Clan that produced the new Emperor, and as I understand the situation, having come into L5R just after the fact, had the Scorpion won it would have been the Dragon to lose their status. Whatever the setting may say about the Scorpion, the IRL people who play that clan are actually a very nice group of people.)

Next time I run a campaign, I'm thinking of picking up The Imperial

Histories and setting it at some point in Rokugan's past.

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...people who will just want to screw with the setting (I'm looking at you, Shadowlands  & Tainted deck players) will pop up (there is historical precident).

And people who just want to screw with the setting don't exist in other factions? You must have missed the "Chiisai For Voice of the Emperor" campaign.

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Next time I run a campaign, I'm thinking of picking up The Imperial

Histories and setting it at some point in Rokugan's past.

Excellent idea. I recommend the Black Crysenthemum or the Five Rings Heresy. They are two great settings for a campaign and have very few supernatural elements. While the supernatural aspects of L5R are really enjoyable, not having the backstory dependent on them means you can add them to fit your group's taste and move to other things when you are done.

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As an astute scholar of anime, I find I rather enjoy the supernatural elements of the setting, but find they have the best impact, as does spirituality in most fantasy, when it is treated as an unusual and mysterious occurrence. The human realm has its laws, the other realms have theirs, and the incongruities between them are what IMO can make use of the supernatural interesting in L5R.

Edited by MarthWMaster

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Well when I Run L5R, I've been running a 'Scorpion Victory' Setting (say hello to Shoju II everyone) for sometime for some time.

I did the same thing once, for the same reason as you, with the distinction that I based my Scorpion Victory on what would have happened in-universe if the Scorpion playerbase had not honored their friendship with the Dragon at the tail end of Race for the Throne, resolving all things as though the Scorpion won the Celestial Tournament, even going so far as to subtly imply in my introduction that this was the "real" Rokugan, while also leaving open the possibility that it was an alternate version hanging out in Yume-do like KYD. (For those who don't know, the Race for the Throne contest held that one Clan would lose its Great Clan status at the end of the arc, the question of which would suffer this being dependent on the Clan that produced the new Emperor, and as I understand the situation, having come into L5R just after the fact, had the Scorpion won it would have been the Dragon to lose their status. Whatever the setting may say about the Scorpion, the IRL people who play that clan are actually a very nice group of people.)

Next time I run a campaign, I'm thinking of picking up The Imperial

Histories and setting it at some point in Rokugan's past.

 

 

Well I've been running this setting for some 15 years (should really get around to writing it down). Very short form is that Shoju did not ask for help from the Crab during the Seige of Otosan Uich. The crab ended up backing the Scorpion Play for the Throne while events played out slightly different (Fu Leng manifested a bit differently). it ended up with The Scorpion still holding on to power, and a long simmering undercurrent of resentment from the Loyalist Clans as the Scorpion, Crab and other parties backing Shoju looked back at them with unfriendly eyes. Tension and potential treachery has been a long reoccurring theme as the Shoju reign was passed to Shoju II, who in a perversity of expected behavior, is actually quite honorable and has taken a Lion bride for his wife. Some nearly 30 years later from The Second day of Thunder, there are multiple themes running in the game As Shoju II appears to have the Mandate of Heaven and the country is runnign smoothly. So it leads to a bit of existentialist crisis for the young samurai vs older samurai as no bolt from above has come down and smote Shoju. That and he really keeps a light hand.

 

but i ramble

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As an astute scholar of anime, I find I rather enjoy the supernatural elements of the setting, but find they have the best impact, as does spirituality in most fantasy, when it is treated as an unusual and mysterious occurrence. The human realm has its laws, the other realms have theirs, and the incongruities between them are what IMO can make use of the supernatural interesting in L5R.

 

 

Every RPG that wants to include magic or the supernatural as an element faces the dilema of putting system and rules on something that maybe ceases to truly be that thing once you put system and rules on it. 

 

Is a system of magic with well-defined rules really magic, or just a different science and technology for manipulating a different form of energy to produce known and repeatable results? 

 

If a supernatural entity or phenomenon has been studied, analyzed, catalogued, and systemized, and follows known rules... does it really count as all that supernatural anymore?  Or is it just another part of a natural world that includes spirits and multiple "dimensions"? 

Edited by MaxKilljoy

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It would also be nice to see a greater emphasis on "story direction" prizes; that is, rathr than simply benefiting his favorite clan in some way, the winner of the tournament gets to choose (from a predetermined set of options) how a particular aspect of the story will develop; e.g. Will the Empire know peace or war in the coming months? Is the new Emperor a tactician, a spiritualist, or a teacher? And so forth.

 

That might be good way to have some player say but still have a good deal of control for he story and design team.

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But interactive story isn't the same as interactive game design, and I don't want to see story choices impact the game either a) in a card and meta design sense, or b) by warping the play environment through restrictions on which clans have which choices. In other words, if the tournament is to decide the new jade champion, and the winner gets 1 vote, he should be able to play any clan and vote for any clan, not be locked into playing a specific clan to get the champion in that clan.

 

You know, I kind of disagree with this, because I seem to remember certain cliques of players (who were often friends with the design team or something similar) pooling their votes to influence story outcomes, creating a situation where they could drown out the voices of other players. Forcing players to play a clan to rep them in story is good, as the people who don't care about the story will not care about the clans they play anyway, and those who do get to actually rep things without worrying about if they should be playing, say, Ratlings out of a Phoenix stronghold to have the best deck atm...

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